As I have stated to you NC, Im completely behind you with this.

Furthermore, I believe this panel should be made up of people who respect eachothers opinions, preventing a case such as the beta forum, which turned into a bash pit.

Another thing I believe nessisary would be to have this panel's discussion(s) viewable by the public. Unlike the beta forum, people would be able to look in and see what is being discussed for the future of Soldat, instead of being held in the dark.

so the panel is made from noobs, experienced, and vets players?

at first stance, this proposal looks very good to me

Wow...this is like, wow.... great idea NC. Although, if this panel did come to be, would there still be the forum? If so, what would be the point of looking to the forums, for ideas to use in the panel? And how might these players be picked? randpmly, or should there be a vote? If there was a vote, it might turn into chaos, until finally Michal got frustrated with it, and either gave up, or just appointed the panelists himeslf.
Im not trying to rag on your idea, just show how it might now work under the near anarchy the forums are today. Great Idea, im with you 100%

Come on NC, cut the crap. We had a board - beta testers. They did the best job they could.

This whole thing sounds unnecessary complicated and entirely useless. Sure, lets create a Greek council, and let God almighty decide who's gonna be a n00b, and who's gonna be a vet.

Good luck

Silk - agreed with the publically viewable forum, and thanx for the support.

Mr G - the panel would be made only of vets, but the opinions of everyone on the rest of the forum (and the community) would still be used.

peemonkey - thanx for the support. The choosing of members would be the hardest part.
The main things we need to make sure of are:

That all the members can get along without arguing.
That they all know the game really well, and know what's really best for it.

BMF - First of all, one of my points was that the beta forum was hardly a success.
As Silk said, it was more like a bash pit.
No one there really respected the opinions of others, and thus when someone came up with something, it would be too easily disreguarded without further thought.
At the moment, the influence to the direction of Soldat is quite random, and that's never a good thing.

I believe that having a panel such as this would bring soldat to a stable level with good, solid gameplay.

According to your panel catagories, the only people who should even be on it are the "vets," since the "noobs" are just too dumb to do anything and the "experienced" apparently don't really know what they're doing. Meanwhile, obviously the "veterans" (yourself included of course) will know everything about the game and be able to use their godlike knowledge to lead Soldat to a new age?

Tell me, how many "vets" were on the "beta testing team?" And how well did that turn out?

It doesn't necessarily matters how long you've played the game (although it does play a factor) what really matters is how well you understand game mechanics, balance, playability, and design in general.

I don't really see the point to the panel. Either Michal is unable or unwilling to follow suggestions in the first place, so why would the panel be better? There are a few things I would change about Soldat given the chance, and foremost of those is the bugs. 1.1.5 was just fine for me except for that.

Hmmm, or rather Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
The thing is that I can agree with both the idealistic thoughts of NC, and the skepticism of BMF here.
I have no idea how such a classification of players is practically possible to do, the fact that some people tend to jump between those classes with every new question makes it even harder. Maybe the important thing or trait is the willingness to see others point of view, who will not flame, who will leave relevant answers etc.(And of course, to have an open mind about things)
I must say by your definition of vets, they are the only ones who should betatest, since they know what is best for the game. So, why do we need noobs then? They are there to tell michal how they see soldat in the very first glance, the virgin look on a game so many of us has been sleeping with forever. I barely remember what i thiught about soldat at first, but i think that that information could be valuable.
Now, im going to ask permission before i continue. A lot more points wud be made if i could take examples from the barrettflame/discussion. Im not going to do that, not until NC here gets this post moderated or sumfing ;)

/Mariachi

quote:Originally posted by BMF
Come on NC, cut the crap. We had a board - beta testers. They did the best job they could.

This whole thing sounds unnecessary complicated and entirely useless. Sure, lets create a Greek council, and let God almighty decide who's gonna be a n00b, and who's gonna be a vet.

Good luck


I DO NOT SEE HOW YOUR HELPING THE SITUATION WITH A COMMENT LIKE THAT SO I THINK YOU SHOULD JUST [:-censored] OFF AND LEAVE THEM TO THIS IDEA... I MYSELF THINK ITS A BRILLIANT PLAN THOUGH AT FIRST I THOUGHT THAT NIGHTCABBAGE WAS FINALLY GOING TO MARRY MICHAL.... WHICH WOULD BE FUNNY, A POLSKI MARRYING A CABBAGE THAT LIVES AT NIGHT... BUT ANYWAY, THE THING IS, IT MAKES [:-censored]ING SENCE TO ME, I AM BEHIND YOU ON THIS ONE NIGHTCABBAGE : )

I must say by your definition of vets, they are the only ones who should betatest, since they know what is best for the game. So, why do we need noobs then? They are there to tell michal how they see soldat in the very first glance, the virgin look on a game so many of us has been sleeping with forever. I barely remember what i thiught about soldat at first, but i think that that information could be valuable.

El_Mariachi - thank you, that was nicely done.

Yes indeed, the hardest thing now is that people don't like to be called anything less than godlike, and thus don't like being categorised as anything but a vet.

Personally I'm quite happy being called a noob when i am, or not a vet when I'm not.

You see, the idea doesn't have to be to rate people, it's just to pick some people that know a lot about soldat.

As for the beta forum, I will say again, yes there were vets, but there were also non-vets. And furthermore, the environment just wasn't right.

Roy, who would u like to decide soldat's direction?

Noobs, or vets?

To me, that question is so bloody obvious that I went out on a limb and made this topic.

I mean no offense to anyone, you all know that I like you all. But some of you are more experienced than others, you must admit that.

I'm not saying that people are 'too dumb' to make important decisions, I'm just saying that they often don't know the full impact their ideas/changes can have on the game. By now, we all know what the slightest change can do.

It doesn't necessarily matters how long you've played the game (although it does play a factor) what really matters is how well you understand game mechanics, balance, playability, and design in general.

Exactly!! That's one of my points


And the difference / use of this panel is to provide a more concentrated group for discussion.
A group that's not huge, and that doesn't have uninformed or inexperienced palyers.

Example, lots of people play the game for an hour, then come to the forum and post this and that. They still don't know everything they need to about the game to actually decide if the idea's good or not.



Thanks for the good posts, keep it up guys!


-EDIT-

lol EvilLaugh and Roy :)

Thanks for the support EL!

How about we wait to hear what Michal has to say before everyone gets their panties in a knot?

Toadsmoke, I dont believe NC wants to force Michal into something, hence the topic title containing the word Proposal. Of course, this may just be NC wanting to marry Michal, but he is spoken for dammit! ;)
A nice debate didnt hurt anyone, less keep it up?
/Mariachi

We already have a board, it is game improvements.
And BTW, I must be a completely noob, because I never heard anyone saying that barret needed to be improved, and if that is true how could come that most of the players used it? Then I wonder how that one was one of the improved weapons, while others have to deal with weapons that are getting dust. That is because a board was made where only some people could post, and therefore it is leaving without word the rest of the community, and whatever way you choose people you will be always ignoring a big part of the opinions.

Ah yes, but who is to determine who is a vet and who isnt?

You said it yourself that "experienced" people are often mistaken for "veterans". Then who should be the judge, and how could that judge figure justify his view to others so they would accept his decisions of who will be permitted into the pannel and who wont?

The biggest issue among you seems to be "who's in and who's not".

Though hard to figure out, this shouldn't be a big thing.

People who get in need to be able to keep an open mind, to respect everyone else, etc.

Perhaps the people should pick some of the members, via a vote?

This vote shouldn't be based on 'who you like', but more who you think knows soldat extremely well, and who you think can help to make a difference.

Really it's a lot like government (except hopefully this will work! :P )
If you just had the president (Michal ;) and the people, then how does a voice get heard?
And sometimes the people might make a wrong decision, cause they think it'll be good for them.
So, you have a council of people (the panel), which takes the concerns of the people and expands upon them, combines them, and presents them to the president.


I am proposing 2 new forums:

Panel - Publically viewable. Not publically postable. This is where the panel members do their thing.

Panel Discussion - Publically viewable. Publically postable. This is where everyone can discuss what's being said in the panel forum.

The idea is that EVERYONE in the community will still have input, and see what's going on.

The Panel members should read the people's opinions of what's being said, and on occasion join in their discussions too.

It will not be secretive at all, unlike the beta.
It will have people in it that can work together.

There's no reason for it not to work.

I don't like the idea. HOW DO YOU KNOW, who knows Soldat enough to be a "veteran"? Someone may understand game mechanics and have totally different vision of Soldat than you. In practice you want to divide people into the three categories:

1) These, who do not understand Soldat.
2) These, who undertand a bit, but NC thinks their ideas are stupid.
3) These, who agree with Night Cabbage.

Do you really want to make a small group of "elite", which will decide about Soldat? Don't do it. It is a fascism.

I'm a fan of fascism then, because I like the idea.

And of course YOU know what is best for the game...

This is a great idea but we need to be careful who we choose. We cant have people who constantly swear and moan. I think its good having newbies as well because they'll probably bring original and fresh ideas :D

Ok. I dislike this idea at the moment, because it seems over the top.

Soldat is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship, and Michal is our dictator. If we have a council of players discussing how Soldat should go, we are essentially walking on Michals turf. It will end up with the 'vets' taking power over the creation of Soldat and Michal being our little coding slave to do it. Remember that Michal makes Soldat for his own reasons, and if he decided to stop working on Soldat, we would be powerless to make him continue. With reference to the Matrix Reloaded, control is having the ability to turn something off and/or destroy it. Does anyone in this community have the power to stop Soldat being developed? No. Nobody has control over Soldat, and shouldn't in the future.

Secondly, this is very elitist. I accept I'm an experienced player and not a veteran, and I don't want to be a veteran, because since my experience in beta testing, I noticed that all the people I would call a veteran (as Cabbages term) were saying 'leave the weapons as they are' and were digging for 'bring back the 1.0.5b physics!'. They live in the past - EVERY 'veteran' would say they prefer older versions, whereas the experienced people were accepting change and welcoming it. If we had a council of veteran players, 1.3 would end up as 1.0.5b with demo recording =/

Also, the beta testing wasn't a bash pit...the 'Bring back Barret!' thread was bash pit, and it deserved to be. However, Michal read through it and considered all the suggestions thrown out, so I think this bash pit topic worked better than every other discussion topic in the forum.

(god damn, I find myself agreeing with BMF more and more these days)

im totaly with this idea now lets start with implementing some sort of heat seeking missile (lol jk) yes good idea first priority would be gameplay second would be additions

quote:Originally posted by Aquarius
And of course YOU know what is best for the game...


Did I say anywhere that it was best for the game?

I agree with aquarius on this one don't like the idea

Well, I think it is time that we sort out Soldat so that EVERYONE likes it. We've got moaners over here, lovers over there....if we get together and finally sort out Soldat, then this will be a better place :D

quote:Originally posted by Denacke
I agree with aquarius on this one don't like the idea

yep same for me

This will never work imo. Good idea, but i'm sure it will be the same.

quote:1.3 would end up as 1.0.5b with demo recording =/

which would be the best IMO

Aquarius - this is not about me. You've mis-understood what this is all about. It's not so NightCabbage can rule the world. It's not so NightCabbage can get all the people he likes into a position of power. You must really not know me to have said that.

It's to try to get a better game.

Bugger NightCabbage :)

At the moment, as I've seen it, things don't really get done around here.

I see some great ideas that never get implemented, instead they are lost.
I see the game go up and down, instead of straight up.
I see room for improvement.

What you must consider is that it's not about an individual.
I don't really care if I myself don't get in this panel.
As long as i know that the panel knows what they're doing.

You see, it's not just about saying "hah, I'm in the PANEL. I rock!"
In fact if anyone was like that, they most likely wouldn't suit it.

Sauron - ur first point. yes, that's what it currently is. That's what this topic's about. Asking Michal, and finding out people's opinions.

second point - valid, but that's only people's opinions. But you bring up a good point, what if vet's want something different to other players?

"1.3 will just be 1.0.5 with demo recording =/"

Also, that's just your opinion about other's opinions.
I in fact like many of the new things since 1.0.5b (most of em in fact).
It's just that some things seem to change in soldat just for the sake of changing them.

Denacke - please actually tell us why. We need to know what you think, and why :)

He's just a player, like the rest of you. He just wants a good game, and to make sure that everyone thinks it's a good game.

It's also not about elitism. Though, would you like a president and a council that didn't know what was the best thing to do?

squirrils - agreed, on both points.

meandor - coz its too idealistic? :P
Surely people can get along and work things out...

-EDIT-

Also, I must stress the fact that the public would in fact have more chance of getting things they want done.

There would be no secrecy, no hiding, nothing like that.

Well first of all i think putting people in classes is a bad idea. I don't know where I'd put myself, Not even going to bother. The so called noobs should have something to say too i think, how to make the first impressions of the game better etc? then the expirienced "the dangerous ones" must have played quite a bit, so they know a fair share about the guns and stuff no? they should be in too then. and the vets, well don't really see the big difference with expirienced there.
secondly, as you stated everyone that was beta testing had another opinion of some sort of idea, what do you want to have now? a panel that thinks the same about everything? Then you will get people that are unsatisfied again too. It will end up just the same as the beta testers.
Trying to make soldat fun for everyone is great, But it will never be possible. Just because everyone thinks different and have other opinions about the game.

-Denacke

I don't agree with your idea, NightCabbage's. I know that you wish the best for Soldat, but discussion should take place in the forums as actually.
Soldat may not be everything we expected it to be, but forming a group of people to discuss this would exclude the rest of the community (even the panel was public).

I think we need to see what Michawel thinks of this whole idea first!

nice idea nightcabbage, i support it.

Im all for it. Reason? So many ppl play, so many blame each other. Its like a freakin civil war! I wanna say that theres no way that we can possibly make Soldat perfect, but if we have all 3 groups that NC stated, and we see all 3 points of view, we can make it good anough so that most of the argueing will stop. How does that sound? I'm probably considered a noob at the moment, but I don't really care. Count me in. Theres been a lot of bickering lately about the game, and its actually getting to ppl's heads and they hate each other. Thats just fekkin stupid.

You can't just divide people into 3 grups with 3 points of view.
It is not that simple!

Ok, then Aquarius how bout this? Those who hate the game and those who dont? Is that better for you?!? Actually... lol That might work :P What do you hate about the game, what do you love? Compromise. Alright Im just bein stupid now Ill stop. But if 1 group of ppl were to come together (lets say all "Experienced Players") and were to come up with a list of what the love and hate about the game, then wer to submit it in a meeting with the other 2 groups and made a huge list, theyd be ready to draw out a whole guideline for the game, wouldnt you think? Well, I dunno, it doesnt sound farfetched to me. But like before, my opinion isnt worth much.

ok... let me try to sum it up the way I understand it. There will not be "3 groups of people." There will be EVERYBODY, and a subset of everybody that will be chosen/elected/whatever to contribute to the PANEL. The PANEL will have their 'forum' where they have their discussions and EVERYBODY can read what they're talking about (but not post). There will be another different forum that's subject will be "what the PANEL is talking about" where EVERYBODY can read and post. If this is wrong correct me NC. As far as I understand it, this is a really good idea.

From what I can gather one of the biggest problems that the betatesting forum had was that instead of being there to iron out the bugs and kinks in the new version, it became almost an elitist version of the normal forums where every suggestion (whether good or bad) had an undue amount of influence since it was a more direct communication with Michal and it was all shrouded in secrecy and not open to public discussion/bashing. The system either needs to be more open than that or not open at all. Assuming Michal ultimately knows what really is the best for SOLDAT, we could just leave it all up to him. If he wants to take in other people's opinions that's fine too (since we are the ones paying for the game... well some of us anyway ;) but choosing a small group of people and keeping it all a secret from everybody else is the worst solution.

As far as selecting who is on the panel, it needs to be people who have played the game awhile bc like NC said, they are more likely to know what is best for the game itself. Other people (old and new to the game) will still be heard because there still is the public forum where the panel topics are discussed. Probably the most important characteristic of someone on the panel is a willingness to hear, consider, and even accept new ideas and points of view without firing off some vulgar flaming post in response. We need people who can formulate good arguments and good points and who can make comprehesible and well thought-out posts.

Now of course this is all up to Michal because he is the one who decides whether to even listen to the panel at all (or if there should even be one), but I really think this might be the only way to truly improve soldat without anybody getting killed in the process!

what would we do without you nc?

kevith - spot on.

and...
"it needs to be people who have played the game awhile bc like NC said, they are more likely to know what is best for the game itself"

Aquarius, that's literally the ONLY reason why I would push for 'veteran' players to be on the panel. Like it or not, they DO know the game better (except Cbble... LOL j/k!). But yes, perhaps it might be nice to get another group for things like first impressions?

100motivo - Well, I can't really see how it could be called private, but basically if a public idea in ANY forum is well liked, then the panel can bring it into the panel forum for further discussion and refinement. eg. A lot of great ideas never get into the game because they aren't adapted to fit perfectly. But after a lot of public discussion, you would have all shown what direction you want to take the idea in, and the panel can then make it 'fit' into Soldat, also giving it a MUCH larger chance of getting in the game (currently very very few ideas get put into Soldat, as you all know).

Aquarius - Try not to get caught up on the whole 'separating people into 3 groups' thing. All we need to do is figure out some people that know the game really well. That's as far as we need to delve into that area...

Kazuki - Yes that's the idea, trying to make it better or everyone.

Denacke - I know what you mean, but one thing I found was that generally (sure, not always, of course) a group of people that really know the game well, will make the same choice. Either an idea is good, and will make the game better, or it's bad, and will make the game into a carrot. er...

?, R - lol, thx

I dont understand what you guys are fighting for.

I made one suggestion in the Suggestions thread (about rambo mode). It instantly caught up and was implemented. Good suggestions are always welcome.

What Cabbage is saying, we should create a group of players, that would tell Michal what to do and what not to do in his game. Nice, considering that 80% of you did not even register.

This is Michal's game. You cant tell him what to do. Got a suggestion? Post it in the thread provided.

Everyone should have the same possibility and the same chance to decribe his proposition how to improve Soldat.

But... oh well... whatever. I don't care, because if I have a new idea, and I think that it is good, I send it directly to Michal (I did it twice, one of them is implemented in 1.2).

BMF, almost noone plays Rambo today [:P] (it's a pity)

quote:Everyone should have the same possibility and the same chance to decribe his proposition how to improve Soldat.

But... oh well... whatever. I don't care, because if I have a new idea, and I think that it is good, I send it directly to Michal (I did it twice, one of them is implemented in 1.2).

BMF, almost noone plays Rambo today
We wouldn't be debating in this thread if it worked that way...


Everyone that thinks beta testers did their job... should go read the beta forums. When i had my chance to take a peak i was amazed at how much progress was going on. (none) I may act immature, stupid and ignorant (which is pretty much all the same thing) but I know what the people want and why they dont have it.

Mistake #1 Letting people with a certan number of posts beta test.
-Any idiot can get his posts up over 300 in a week (look at sithak)
Mistake #2 People only agreed with what THEY wanted for the game.
-Instead of what would have worked with everyone.
Mistake #3 Letting the game slide out with more bugs than before.
-Please explain this Mr. ITS NOT THE BETA TESTERS FAULTS!!!

anyhoo, i'd like a spot up there, but who knows.

quote:Originally posted by BMF
I dont understand what you guys are fighting for.

I made one suggestion in the Suggestions thread (about rambo mode). It instantly caught up and was implemented. Good suggestions are always welcome.

What Cabbage is saying, we should create a group of players, that would tell Michal what to do and what not to do in his game. Nice, considering that 80% of you did not even register.

This is Michal's game. You cant tell him what to do. Got a suggestion? Post it in the thread provided.


It's Michal's game and all but if he wants to get my money, he's going to have the make the game a lot better. And for the people who have paid, they are paying for the game that they want to continue playing and enjoying instead of wasting money on it. Thats why im still not registering, thats why im not letting go of my money. Not unless he actually listens to the people's comments on what may make the game better and starts actually making the game into an actual product.

NC's idea is brilliant, simply taking people both New, Experianced and Vets and asking them what would improve the game. Of course there are going to be lots of people who want to be part of the experiance of trying to make the game better so maybe an application form should be set up so that people can sign up and then people Michal has actually chosen to organise out who should be on the panel. Of course this may be a slow going process but if they do it, then there are going to be people who actually make the game 100 times better than what it already is. Not just a brilliant game but the perfect game.

So people who are knocking him down, shut the hell up, this is a great idea and im sure this is going to benefit the community and the game a hell of a lot more than you could possibly think.

I dunno what all the fuss is about... I love the new version. I thought certain things were overpowered, but I quickly adjusted to it, and built a skill with it, to overcome noobs. Only minor things can be adjusted, but I like it just the way it is now.

Although, this isn't a bad idea, IF we get the right people in it.

One question tho.... wahts teh diff between this idea, and beta-testing/beta testing forums>?

Yeah.... IF... there are a lot of people who will make the game better for there own ends.

Marb, theres a HUGE difference. First, the beta testers were way too few and were all ppl who had high posts. Michal did not know how most of them played/acted. Also, everything was kept a secret and only they had a say in this. Third, who knows if they even cooperated. And I dunno who's dumbass idea it was to de-nerf the barret. I think everyone will agree on that. Personally, I think that if Michal were to leave the planning to us, and then see how it goes, the game might take a turn for the better. But those are just my opinions.

I could tell you why the barret was de-nerfed........ but i wont.

Ok, how about this, i love this idea so. Y not for every1 applying, make some sort of situation in soldat where things go wrong and then they must fill in the blanks to answer what they think should be done, the certain number with the best "SCORE" would be accepted, of course, there would be acceptions to certain people that got high marks that every1 new was just bs'ing.

well... firstly what eva happens, that jucie box guy is a tool. The biggest problem for me is the age of the average soldat player and the age of Michael. Basically so many 12-16 kids post and suggest ideas. (im not saying they shouldnt). Im sure a few of them are beta testers. But anyway, they may know what sounds cool (vehicles, new guns etc) but it goes completely against what soldat is. Also i reckon, without really knowing, that Michael needs to start playing more. He needs to play on public servers to see how the game actually plays. I dont know how he came up with the weapons balance but... it seems to me that he listened to ppl's whinging and tried to make every gun really powerfully. Michael needs to make sure hes objective when he is deciding the weapons balance, because ppl dont always know what best for themselves. I dont really know how much difference the panel would make, but it certainly wont hurt so im in support. But the forums should already be doing the sort of thing your trying to set up, so i dont know how effective it would be. My only suggestion would be to at least try and have mature older ppl involved. Maybe just take all the moderators or something and add to that group, but yeah dunno. It is pretty hard to determine someones maturity but not impossible.

Basically, in my mind age and immaturity are a problem. Im not having ago go at all the younger ppl out there, but... i do believe a more mature approach to the future development of soldat will be a big benefit.

Uhm, suggestion: that there be a representative who is sympathetic to the linux cause :) All I want is for the text to be readable under wine ...

quote:well... firstly what eva happens, that jucie box guy is a tool.

mind explaining?

Anyway, age doesnt really matter. Look at enjoy incubus, He's 15 and more mature than most of us. We could be any age and still act like were 12.

well, good thing i popped on the forums ;)

first of all, i gotta say, NC u r a genious, i love the idea, i think it really can take off and reach the sky ;)

i saw here 2 kind of posters (on this topic only!), ppl that actually agree with the idea, and ppl that are disturbed about one of the less important things: who is a noob? who is experienced and who is a vet?, that is depressing, thats not the point of this topic.

the thing is this really reminds me of politics, after all this is a community, communities always have leaders (or in this case for now 1 leader). i aint gonna talk bout dictatorship and democracy rubbish, but thats the idea, if u can take the smart ppl from between the forum users, u can make some kind of "congress", and it k, of course michal (for being the creator) will always have the last decission, but it still is cool, also u can separate ppl in "parties" instead of noobs, vets and experienced players.
yes, there are parties here, and most of them got one forum member that is the "voice" of it, u got guys that like 1.2, and the one u see saying it more is BMF, u got guys that see place for change, like NC, u see ppl that try to keep the logics going, just like El Mariachi, u see the other ppl that think we are full of bs, and that would be like having a marijuana wanting hippy political party. but ey, im sure u got the idea, if u can choose at least 2-3 representatives from each "party" and make some kind of congress it can be very good, both for the game and the community.

my point is that if u search for about 1 hour (maybe less if u know the forums very well) u will find there is already some kind of "brain trust" on this forum, ppl that can make a change, ppl that know whats best, if u get them into this "congress" it will be ok. but if u get all the guys that are proposing vehicles or doors to lockpick, most certainly this idea will go down with the rest of the dumps on the toilet.

I support the idea 100% ;)

Amen...

I actually do agree with the idea of a "council" of people, but will it ever be implemented? That's a hard question to answer.

If you could get people to agree on the issues at hand I think it could go well. I like the idea of an "application," because anyone who wants to would have a shot at being on the council and having an important say, yet not just any jackass could get on... but who would look over the applications? Michal? Forum admin? Hm?

Well, there is one fault with the application theory. People change. At the time they send in the application, they may be suitable for the position(s). But later on... Or, they could just be bull[:-censored]ing on the application to get in. No, I believe in some way or another existing council members, or perhaps the general public would have to vote people in. This is a similar situation as deciding who gets to become a moderator.

So the most popular and well-known people get on the council? I suspect that is similar to how the beta-testers were chosen, and the general opinion is that that didn't work out very well.

Then what can be done? How can you possibly select people? Both methods suggested have flaws.

Ok. People have to verse one of the mods in a duel... in 1.0.5b... and the mod is allowed to use any cheats he pleases... and aimbots and speed hacks...

Maybe both; a "popular council" and an "applied council" which would work together? Or maybe you could just have half the council members be elected and the other half would be chosen from applications.

If you read this thread from the bystander's view...this is hilarious actually. Okay, to clear some things up.
-A n00b is generally someone who is bloody friggin new to the game. Thought of that yet people? A person is considered a n00b until they stop asking questions of how to make things work (besides map editing, graphics mods and etc) and are in the top 5 of games they play. I say top 5 because generally it isn't very hard. I can get to 1st place with 5 minutes left in a game and having not played for a month or two. Also, a n00b's first game is within around 3 months or so of their current play time.
Experienced-Played the game for a while, and in most games within top 5. Sometimes people call them the cheater for kicking their ass, and since banning for any tiny little modification to the game is well known, generally the cheating comments are wrong. Experienced people are the most well known, NightCabbage is experienced and a vet (who woulda thunk...) for example. I fit into this category kind of, even though I am barely seen in the game. Reason being is that Soldat hates my PC for no apparent reason.
Vet- Played the game since before 1.10-1.15. But since 1.1 has been out for a while, I guess 1.1-1.11 might fit into this category, I don't really remember their release dates. Been way too long. A vet DOES complain and say the older stuff is good (older not being 1.1.5 or whatever) alot, because sometimes they are right. And also in the older system we had some damn hilarious games that were total chaos and didn't involve cheating... Except cheating was fun with a rapid fire spas that could make you fly across the level within 2 seconds.

And NightCabbage, although I call it [:-censored]in hilarious, this is a good idea. People, it wouldn't remove Michal's dictatorship. IT IS A PROPOSAL. Michal could accept this idea and then totally ignore it...sure we'd get pissed at him but don't we already? I'd want to be on this "council" just because it'd be funny, and I'd be able to give the pessimistic registered version view on things. I know half the people here want to be on the panel, but they are afraid of saying so. So bah upon you. This council could help make Soldat better. As for choosing who is on it, some good tests could be created that test if the person understands Soldat, is a map maker or a modifier or understands the programming. Maybe another test for being n00b vs vet. I'm sure someone could get a test that works. And if that doesn't work, hell, we could just get petitions that have 20 people's signiatures to get into it. That works. So people, if you're gonna flame me or the idea of this council, give a VALID FRIGGIN REASON. Not just "I agree to disagree" or something. And read the other posts, just in case what you have to say has already been said.

-The Sykotic Soldier (Finally decided to start posting on Forums, yay for me.)

"I say top 5 because generally it isn't very hard"

Look, he is a newbie!

Eh...I suppose I'm back from the shadows...

Interesting proposition...

If this does go through, I think it should be composed of at least one respectable ?Veteran? from each group. One to represent modding, one for mapping, and etc? This ?council? should be around 7 members? maybe even a group of lost veterans so we cover a larger area of the community or something of the sort?

Personally, I would recommend Spikesama/Spike as a part of this ?council?, he has more than enough qualifications, he created sctfpl and he has more than enough experience IMHO?

I would?ve suggested Flanagan for the Mapping rep?but yea?I haven?t seen him lately?

I think TFS has some good ideas that he could contribute to the game as a whole?

Ardaen, b00sta, SoldatStriker, and toadsmoke for other positions?

I don?t know if I would qualify, but I wouldn?t mind being in this council if I was selected?

Most if not all of these people usually if not always say something important and useful?

thats exactly what we need to avoid in a case of a council, a group made of all vets (so they think they are worthy only cuz they found the game before the rest), and also i saw that most of the guys u named are actually moderators or retired moderators... isnt that just like keeping the things the same way they were on the beta testing forums? it sounds kinda sad that u think that only vets should be there, even tho most of the "smart" ppl on the forums are vets, im sure u can find some others too.
i also was amazed to see that u didnt name morpheus for anything :/

Anyway, i think that a group made of vets/moderators is like changing nothing around here, is xactly leaving it the same while making it look different, if that ever happens, be sure u will get me on the opposition.

hope i cleared the issue.

quote:Originally posted by DeafBox
My only suggestion would be to at least try and have mature older ppl involved. Maybe just take all the moderators or something and add to that group, but yeah dunno. It is pretty hard to determine someones maturity but not impossible.

Basically, in my mind age and immaturity are a problem. Im not having ago go at all the younger ppl out there, but... i do believe a more mature approach to the future development of soldat will be a big benefit.
As far as selecting people who are "mature" goes, you can judge that pretty well just by reading some of their posts.

Exactly... though there are some people such as me who type like we just came out of Kindergarten.... but can type seriously... so it's more of a personal Know-to-Know bases thing....

The current system with the suggestion board and Michal making all final decisions is currently working fine.

Yeah, I guess it is kind of hard. While some ppl really care and will put their best forward, others couldnt give a damn and just make it better for themselves. I think Weed's idea of the parties is good, except they should have a leader who is trusted. Let's say we split up the 3 groups that NC stated into 3 or 4 parties, all consisting of newbies, experienced players, and veterans, mixed. Then each one would have a leader. Either a vet or maybe even an experienced player. The leader needs to be someone who makes sure that all opinions are equally heard/considered. Then they would make some type of list with improvements and discuss it with the leaders of the other parties. It's like an essay paper and the writing process. Revision. Then conference, then revision again, until they have a "final copy" of the improvement list, which will then be handed to Michal.

That's what I think will work really well. :) Maybe just consider it with the rest of the suggestions.

Hey guys, this is awesome, Michal implemented NC's idea!! Check this out!

http://soldatforum.dnagames.net/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=50

Yes, he did. But only for the Map Maker.... [;)]

'k so we've reached 4 pages so far on this discussion. Not bad.
So far we've established it's a nice idea, although a bit hazy on who actually gets to be the 'in crowd', and a few other nik naks...

So..yeah. Who does get to be part of this senate?

Only clear method I can think of is if Michal himself chose and worked along side 'Styx to make a seperate forum for the whole sha'bang.
Problem is, I can't be sure he actually knows us that well :
Only alternative is if we had some 3rd-party website with a list of all the people who frequently post on the forum, say 50 posts or over to be sure, and a voting system applied to it; 1 vote per man. It'd be one heck of a task, thats for sure...

..is it really worth it? Granted i'm not very content with the abysmal confusion, lack of progress, bickering, and solid ideas and constructive thinking slipping through our greasy fists, but i'm feeling tired just thinking of the efforts and discussions involved in getting it all sorted. [:-indifferent]

thats why i suggested members ranking in Forum Support

well i like this idea, but Chakra i dont think we need the 50+ post to make a vote (if we do the voting thing) cause iv been watching the forums for like 4 months and have only a few post ><".

but b4 we all chose who we want to be in the council this needs to be ok with MM cause it his game.
And if i was MM, id say screw you all, this is my game ill make it how i like, go to hell. lol lucky im not him
but i reckon a coucil of players would be able to decide better than one man (i think) in my opinion.

it all comes down to MM

meow im a cat

Its soldat stilll and im going to play it... i dont care

I hope you count me as a vet >.> <.< Do you cabbage!

This is big. We HAVE to do this!

I still think we need a mix of people, not just vets. Also we need to device a fair system to choose who goes on the council or not (if were sticking with that idea...)

So when is the mighty Michal going to appear and tell us whether we've been wasting our time? Of course there are some details that would need to be worked out, but if it has no chance of implementation this thread just becomes a load of bs. I wonder if he's been reading it as it has evolved....

To rephrase, I am not opposed to having "newbies" on the council, as long as they make EDUCATED remarks. I mean, most everyone gets tired of hearing the same old things repeated over and over by newbies. I'm sure everyone makes mistakes, however, some "newbies" know how to use the "Search" button on the forums so they don't repeat everything.

I wasn't part of the 1.2 beta test, but I think one of the reasons it failed or so people say it failed, was that it had some people that don't really make intelligent comments. I looked at the list, and looked at some of their posts, and I'm just like...wow.

I think the smaller the council the better, it is easier to make finalized decisions with less people IMO because there aren't that many people to deal with. The downside is you don't get as many ideas, which can be a good thing because if you look at the forum and how many ideas there are, there is no way Michal goes through all of them.

Bleh I have no idea wtf im talking about...I suppose I'm a "newbie"...

Either way, I think this council or the mods should put all the things that the community thinks is worth addressing in a "For Michal" forum. I remember this idea crossing my head back when I was a mod and I'm not sure if it has been implimented. Perhaps a Pro and Con of each idea so Michal doesn't have to go through 5+ pages of spam. Basically it would be one post, the finalized arguments for each side on why and why not the community thinks this new thing should be implimented or worked on...etc ...

quote:Either way, I think this council or the mods should put all the things that the community thinks is worth addressing in a "For Michal" forum. I remember this idea crossing my head back when I was a mod and I'm not sure if it has been implimented. Perhaps a Pro and Con of each idea so Michal doesn't have to go through 5+ pages of spam. Basically it would be one post, the finalized arguments for each side on why and why not the community thinks this new thing should be implimented or worked on...etc ...

Bingo. If anyone is intelligent enough to decipher what the game needs & what would make everyone happy, they should be in on it.

> If anyone is intelligent enough to decipher what the game needs
> & what would make everyone happy, they should be in on it.

I learned about one guy, who thought that he knows what would make everyone happy. His name was Karol Marks. Unfortunatelly, because of his utopian idea (communism) millons of people died.

Karol Marks... LOL, you do mean Karl Marx right?

Either way I don't think millions of people will be dying because of Soldat... Or will they?!

Read the bolded text and maybe you will understand what I wanted to say.

Good job concocting an irrelevant fact.
Let me refraise this, you cant please everyone, but possibly the majority.

I think that a few elite veterans will please only themselves, not the majority. Their first idea would be "bring back 1.0.5". They can't change anything, because they are to conservative. It would be a "Soldat pensionary club".

Some ideas are obviously stupid, but sometimes you can't just say that an idea is good or bad if you will not try it in practice. Noone is alpha & omega. Veterans are not "professors of Soldat". Probably the only one who knows everything about Soldat is Michal. He is the only one who decide about Soldat. And all players should have the same rights in describing their ideas.

I hate to say it, but I think when soldat was in 1.05b that was its prime. Hell, if the lobby supported 1.05b, im sure more people would play it.

I guess my question is...what would be wrong with bringing back the ol 1.05b weapon settings and physics? What negative effects do you see? Back in 1.05b, I don't remember anyone complaining about weapon balance issues...the most used weapon was m79, and it was to the point where no one really cared...like it wasnt so much more over powerd...it was "just right" i suppose...

Personally, I could go either way...but I would perfer 1.05b...

going back to topic...The only reason I would be somewhat reluctant to let "newbs" have their opinion represented is they haven't seen the game change, they've only seen a few versions...I am pretty sure most of them don't bust out 1.05b and compare it to 1.2. The "vets" know history. The "newbs" lack history, but will gain it like everyone else has...so they will have their turn...

I guess im saying it is hard to know whats best for the game if you have little expirence with the game...

but tell me...how would you benifit with newbs being represented? more fighting for the implimentation of vehiciles? more requests for more options that aren't really nesessary?

I think what most of what the vets really want is to fix all the bugs and improve net code. how exactly is that bad for the game? the more additions you add to the game the more bugs you get, how about just finalizing what we've got first and then moving on to additions...

*begin shameless plug*
and maybe revert to 1.05b physics...
*end shameless plug*

i didnt say only i know the game...im saying that the majority of vets probably know the game better than newbs. its always been that way. thats why the newbs sometimes ask the vets for help. you rarely see a vet asking a newb about something in-game...

I don't remember anyone complaining about weapon balance issues...

Anyone played with Ruger?

guess im saying it is hard to know whats best for the game if you have little expirence with the game

Guess I am saying it is arrogant to say that (only) veterans know what is best for the game. Noone is omniscient.

I think what most of what the vets really want is to fix all the bugs and improve net code.

What a brilliant idea! OK, lets fix it. Oh wait... it is a job for Michal and betatesters (sigh)

Don't flame people, psylent will prob go nuts :|. W/e just dont respond.

Maybe we could split up into parties, not sure if it was mentioned, at least something similar to this. But neways, say a party for the bugs, the balance, the maps, etc. I dunno, i have mixed feelings about this...

Aquarius - you wanna tell me how the beta testers are going to fix the net code?

the net code has been on pretty much everyones mind...its arguably the largest most annoying problem with this game, probably larger than any bug...

personally, id rather have the net code fixed than a fancy new addition to the game...

newbs USUALLY want new additions...why? its beyond me...

either way, when comparing soldat to other games, which is hard to do...because there arent any other games of its kind...soldat has a ton if not enough options...i mean...there isnt really that much more you could want options wise...well at least thats MY opinion...

do you have a problem with fixing all the existing bugs and improving net code before adding more features? dont you think thats more important than more features?

Noone is omniscient.

I agree...vets don't know everything, but i can assure you that MOST of them know more than the newbs...back to my argument... how many vets do you generally see asking newbies for help? It just doesnt happen that often if ever.

TIR_Blade - groups have been mentioned :-P

Since it seems relevant now and nobody really seemed to notice when it was originally posted...
quote:Originally posted by Weed
[Re: forming a "SOLDAT Congress"]
u can separate ppl in "parties" instead of noobs, vets and experienced players. yes, there are parties here, and most of them got one forum member that is the "voice" of it, u got guys that like 1.2, and the one u see saying it more is BMF, u got guys that see place for change, like NC, u see ppl that try to keep the logics going, just like El Mariachi, u see the other ppl that think we are full of bs, and that would be like having a marijuana wanting hippy political party. but ey, im sure u got the idea, if u can choose at least 2-3 representatives from each "party" and make some kind of congress it can be very good, both for the game and the community.

BTW... I think this could be a workable solution to the 'choosing the panel' problem.

welcome back psylent

by Psyl3ntShad0w:

do you have a problem with fixing all the existing bugs and improving net code before adding more features? dont you think thats more important than more features?


I agree with you! Really! I think, that the next version should be ONLY for bug fixes, net code improvements, etc.

And now... tell me, how a separated, "elite" council made from veterans will help Michal to improve net code??? And if veterans mostly don't like the new ideas (except the "bring 1.0.5 back" idea), what is the purpose of such group? A chitchat about 1.0.5?

I have nothig against such group unless they will say: "We know what is best for the game! Change this and this, Michal."

as ive said before, veterans know the game, they've seen the game evolve. therefore, i'd hope that they can determine what might work and what might not work with the game, seeing that they've played the game for so long.

they wont help michal improve the net code. simple as that. everyone knows net code is a problem...

USUALLY if most veterans don't like an idea, there are USUALLY reasons for it. it would be my hope, that the veterans picked for this "council" or what not have the knowledge to back up their opinions with arguments and evidence that are legitmate...

obviously, some of their arguements would be speculation. however, with all the knowledge of the game that they have aquired over the years that speculation could possibly be considered as "expert testimony"

I have nothig against such group unless they will say: "We know what is best for the game! Change this and this, Michal."

good. [:D]

evidence of AVERAGE newb brain power...
- http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=11073
- http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=11070

i rest my case [^] lol (chill, its just a joke [:D])

note - yea...im taking a law class...

AerialAssault - thx

personally i dont really care if it goes back to 1.05b...i could go either way...im just leaning toward those physics and weapon settings and what not...

Changing the game back to 1.0.5 = a waste of a years programing and hard work.

> evidence of AVERAGE newb brain power...
> - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=11073
> - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=11070

Are these threads some ideas?

> AVERAGE newb brain power

I don't agree. The problem is that many newbies even don't post, so I can't prove you are wrong [;)] And normal newbie's posts are not so noticeable like the stupid ones.

Exactly. Like I've said and said, first fix the bugs, then try and figure out what might improve the game.

psylent, forgive me, but i cant agree with ur opinion.
the only impression i got from what u wrote till now, is that u r exactly the kind of ppl that shouldnt be part of all this, since u r not tolerant toward newbs, and if u want some proof of AVERAGE vets brain power, u can check and see that half the vets on this community are either full of bs or under 14 years old.

im a newb myself, im sure me saying this means u will ignore me from now on, only cuz u call urself a vet and im new? or this means that u will come and show me that u know soldat better, even if u do, newbs havea voice too, im not here to represent anyone besides myself, but a group of vets and moderators arent the solution for this.

and at last, the net code is a problem, u(and all the other "vets") have been around since the first versions, why didnt u do something for the net code back then, if u couldnt do it back then, what makes u think u will succed now? after all, u r the vets, u been there since back in the day, the net code was a problem back then too, only now u remember it?

so yes, i rest my case, and i leave u with a bit of veteran AVERAGE brain capacity: read psylent's post for more directions

lol. if i gave you the indication that i don't tolerate newbs, then that is unfortuante. if i gave you the indication that i consider myself a vet, then that is unfortunate as well.

i consider soldatstriker a vet and a good example of what a vet should be. perhaps too much has changed since i left and the vets are becoming more and more immature. but honestly, out of the examples i named, which one of those do you think is immature or full of bs...personally i dont consider the people with 14 year old attitudes and people that are full of bs, vets, if you group them into the same catagory that is your business not mine. even if those people have the knowledge of a vet, they dont act like one, therefore they arent.

if you consider yourself a newb, so be it. but for the most part, i see intelligence in your posts, which grants you respect. intelligence grants respect, simple as that. perhaps ive been around too many of the egotistical newbs that post how good they are at the game...either way, vets are USUALLY more serious about the game, they dont want to see a game they've played for so long get ruined.

personally, i don't really consider myself a vet or a newb...mainly due to the fact that i've been gone so long. I've missed many things. you could say i'm in between. I am a newb to the newer soldat and a vet of the old. either way, i dont think its right to judge myself.

as for this netcode...its always been improved...or so it says its been improved...im just hoping the continued emphasis on improving net code will put the net code at a level where we can rarely complain or void a match due to lag.

"(chill, its just a joke [:D])"



syz - good to have you back and on board :)

Aquarius - one of the main reasons people always talk about 1.0.5b physics, etc. is because it worked (in fact, I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise...?).

And ugh, let's not bring 'average brain power' into it guys :P

The only 'brain power' we need to worry about is that of whoever is ON the panel [:P]

eg. Mr. "HOW TO FIRE LAW?!?" won't get in...



Aquarious:

"And if veterans mostly don't like the new ideas (except the "bring 1.0.5 back" idea), what is the purpose of such group? A chitchat about 1.0.5?"

o.O

Now you're stereotyping.

a) The are actually reasons for people to like 1.0.5b better than some of the new versions, however even so, most appreciate the new things that the later versions have yeilded.
b) Any feature that's actually GOOD for Soldat is liked, generally by most people. I personally love many new features. 1.2's feature set is far superior to any previous version.
c) I know I'd much rather play a new, balanced, less buggy, full-featured version of Soldat than 1.0.5b. Anyone that thinks differently should have already moved on to another game.

Nightcablet....I back u up 100%
Soldat needs to be taken more seriously in all aspects of the game...
and new ideas are whats needed... if new (GOOD) ideas, and i stress the word GOOD ideas are implemented, Soldat could become much more than it is.
This new discussion is a great way to bring soldat to a whole new level.
:)

Michael

Sorry if im breaking any seriousness of this thread... but someone said that it was a dictatorship... so who is Hitler? Also, i think this thread is becoming a "Bash Pit"... but anyway... why dont you people who are constantly flaming eachother here just take it out on eachother in a nice game of 1 on 1 Soldat (Or even One Optionion and all its followers VS The second Opinion and all its followers in a team match) hey, it beats having to read through all the useless flame replys... *wonders if anyone will flame him for this* o'well... i guess everyone that has flamed would be disqualified for being a "Vet" then... although i personally think the classification of the types of people was going abit far... you could of just said "It should contain people who know the game well, etc" wich probobly wouldnt of annoyed as many people... but yeah... its already done...

-EDIT-

ARGGGGG!!! Burn all Chaching Proxy Servers!!!

BY NC:

Any feature that's actually GOOD for Soldat is liked, generally by most people. I personally love many new features. 1.2's feature set is far superior to any previous version.

Oh, really? Which one of these features are proposed by the best Soldat minds? Of course, some of them are - BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

First NC post:

The beta testers did not do their jobs - I should know, I was one of 'em.
It was like talking to a brick wall, we were in fact unable to do our jobs.
We said our piece, repeatedly, however it was Michal's decision in the end.

It is arrogant. What does it mean? You called Michal a brick wall [:P]... You want to make him a council's slave! A programming robot!

But fortunatelly you are not able to do this! It is HIS game, only MICHAL may decide about Soldat. He is the author.

And if this council is only for the ideas - there is already a forum.

I think its time for Michal to post his thoughts about this 'proposal'.

I think its time for Michal to post this thoughts on this 'proposal'.

And if this council is only for the ideas - there is already a forum.

Aquarius - as I've said time and time again...do you really think michal has time to read every single post in the forum, most useful threads get filled with flaming and spam if they aren't locked. Personally, if I was the author of the game, I wouldn't have the effort to tread through so much crap to get what I want to know. Thats why I had my suggestion of a "For Michal" forum...read one of the previous posts...

quote:Aquarius - as I've said time and time again...do you really think michal has time to read every single post in the forum, most useful threads get filled with flaming and spam if they aren't locked. Personally, if I was the author of the game, I wouldn't have the effort to tread through so much crap to get what I want to know. Thats why I had my suggestion of a "For Michal" forum...read one of the previous posts...
What's the point of this elite team then?
edit:
1: There will always be people flaming even in the special team.
2: If the autor doesn't want to go trough it all we better don't make this either. And yes i understand that it is hard for michael with his probably busy schedual. But maybe of course the dividing in groups and then let someone of the group say what they think might be a solution for less problems
3: we haven't even heard of him :S I'd like to know his opinion/solution for this, That's the best way that we can think further then.

1: There will always be people flaming even in the special team.

-not if they're mature and have an open mind.
-not if they get a long already...

2: If the autor doesn't want to go trough it all we better don't make this either. And yes i understand that it is hard for michael with his probably busy schedual. But maybe of course the dividing in groups and then let someone of the group say what they think might be a solution for less problems


Please rephrase, I don't quite follow you...

3: we haven't even heard of him :S I'd like to know his opinion/solution for this, That's the best way that we can think further then.

yea...probably...i think everyone would like to know his opinion on all sorts of issues...

I've been reading throught all the 6 pages without giving my opinion on all this when most of you did already so here it goes :

NC brought a very good idea with his proposal to Michal. I would like it to be created/implimented to our community, because most of us realised that it would benefit which matters most to us : The Soldat game. There has been a lot of waste of "time" and posts for something as unnecessary as : Who gets to go in there!? Right now, this is not our concern. This thread was made, if Im not mistaken for Michal to, either approve or dismiss this proposal. Since, the selection matter has been what seems to animate most of the people, ill give my opinion on this too.

The 3 groups/parties/gang (call it whatever you want... we dont need political-correctness here... parties, groups -all the same-)so chosen Noobs, experienced and vets is, in my opinion, good too. (Soon will come the question, does my opinion counts for anything?)

I know it sounds unfair and it probably is but I must say I am in agreement on one of Psyl3ntShad0w point ; I dont think noobs/youngers should have much to say on this "coucil". My main reason is that, since they are noobs they cannot bring new things which can be nicely incorporated to this game without alterning it. Changing the game itself IS NOT what we, the players, want. The game is excellent since its debut and has always been changing for what seemed to be the best at the time. This version v1.2 is good, there has been less complex versions of the game, but it all comes to the same at the end ; IT MUST BE FUN! (simple as that)

For those who didnt understand the subtility, ill point it out for you. Experienced players are players that know enought the weapons to master their use and kill effectively with a good kill/death ratio while still being in the tops. Veteran players usually are skilled since they have known the game for many years (even though there were a lot of changes to the game's physics and weapons way of using them), but mainly called veteran because they have known earlier versions and have a better understanding of what Michal may have been trying to create in this game. Skilled players and Noobs should have a place at the council (in my opinion.... always keep that in mind), but there Voice should be smaller than the vets, which are a bit like a breathing-living better understanding of the Soldat idea. Small little Michals trying to keep the game into the "Soldat's mentality". (Ok, It might've been too much with lil Michals, but was funny to imagine)

Psyl3ntShad0w, something you said disturbed me, you were talking about vets and you said :
-not if they get a long already...

As if the council should be chosen from veteran players that are mature and that know eachother already?
The mature part is obvious in my opinion. The council cannot be made of "Childish players" and unmature people. If someone can make himself understandable while giving a positive opinion on a subject which is still in the Soldat's Universe (not having spaceships and aliens running around), then they should be allowed to speak in the council. If you have a suggestion like : "we should put at least one laser pistol and maybe have a teleport at the fartest end of each big map so that we can come easier to the other side and destroy our ennemy", well I should say... make a mod about it OR just create your own game, cauz it really sounds like fun but it has nothing to do with what Michal and/or the players wanted of this game.
But *comes back to the subject* for the already know themselves part.. well I think its not fair. I might have played as much as any well-known vet while I've not participated as much, but I think I'm as elligible to this as anyother person. They don't have to know eachother. If they have the same way of seen Soldat the way Michal showed it to us at the beginning... then those people wont have a problem getting along.

Last part, Im almost done (had to say alot of things... come on 6 pages!). Here's the point where I say why my opinion should be taken seriously. I know what I'm talking about since I've played this game from its debut. I think I have a good idea of what Soldat should look like and what could destroy this image. I just started posting *checks at his post count*, because before well, i didnt even know there was a forum (didnt pay attention) and because I didnt need to be part of it because the game was excellent. It was fun, could meet friends and fight together or duel, the weapons where all ok.. but now v1.2 came and I heard from players a lot of complains, heck i did even complain sometimes when i thought this or this wasnt as it should be or as I think it should be (my opinion). I'll give you ,all who dont understand, why vets so much loved the game in the earlier versions. There was no one complaining. The game was tons of fun, imaginative, original... we couldnt possibly complain. The thought never came in mind. It was like this and that's it. That's how Michal wanted it, but now.. the v1.2 wasnt totally made by Michal. A lot of changes came from players, well I say not all sounds-like-fun suggestions should be taken. Anyways, let the people who know the game give their suggestions, then compare them to the rest of the players. Don't start making assemptions like why compare, it wont work. Let us be there and we'll see, but then again, we await Michal's opinion on all this.

So, let's wait.

Ninja.. it wouldnt work since not many people would know what they are talkin about since they havent played 1.0.5

@Psyl3ntShad0w :
quote:-not if they're mature and have an open mind
I think you'll be pretty surprised really ;)

quote:Please rephrase, I don't quite follow you...

Yeah sorry wrote it in a rush my fault well i meant this:
If Michal doesn't want to go trough all those single posts on the forum here or from the betatesters(did he?), he probably won't go trough all the posts from the "elite" team.
and for the idea it refers to this post :
quote:the thing is this really reminds me of politics, after all this is a community, communities always have leaders (or in this case for now 1 leader). i aint gonna talk bout dictatorship and democracy rubbish, but thats the idea, if u can take the smart ppl from between the forum users, u can make some kind of "congress", and it k, of course michal (for being the creator) will always have the last decission, but it still is cool, also u can separate ppl in "parties" instead of noobs, vets and experienced players.
yes, there are parties here, and most of them got one forum member that is the "voice" of it, u got guys that like 1.2, and the one u see saying it more is BMF, u got guys that see place for change, like NC, u see ppl that try to keep the logics going, just like El Mariachi, u see the other ppl that think we are full of bs, and that would be like having a marijuana wanting hippy political party. but ey, im sure u got the idea, if u can choose at least 2-3 representatives from each "party" and make some kind of congress it can be very good, both for the game and the community.

Oh man, I knew this was gonna turn out bad. Mighty god Michael, answer our prayers! What shall we do??

So... what now? were in a big pool of pointless arguments. Whats the game plan? anyone contact michal about this yet?

Psyl3ntShad0w, something you said disturbed me, you were talking about vets and you said :
-not if they get a long already...

to rephrase...i think i was going towards, they wont flame each other if they already get along...that doesnt nessesarily mean that you pick people that get along...but yea...not quite sure what i was thinking there, so just omit that...

juice box, if no-one responds, that normally means "Not that i know of" or they havnt checked the forum... (Probobly playing Soldat...), that's what i'd be doing right now if it worked on Linux... (1.2 worked on linux... i like netplay...) but yeah, it dosent so while other people are using the XP Comp i use the *NIX Box to find handy things todo with soldat... Although, i never through it was possible for such a big argument to arise over a game... o'well, i thought wrong...

Psyl3ntShad0w responded but he was to entangled in an argument to care about what this threads really about, but i'm just guessing.

..Anyone worked out how exactly we're going to establish this 'senate' then? I think we've all concurred it'd be nice to have around..

-quote:Originally posted by Denacke
-@Psyl3ntShad0w :
-[quote]-not if they're mature and have an open mind
-I think you'll be pretty surprised really ;)

I do agree that even the most calm and mature ppl sometimes get overexcited and starts to flame, solutions?

One way is to moderate it, pre or post moderation. Not a very good solution, at least not a premoderating solution.

Maybe it is easier to tell ppl that they need to be constructive, and any inconstructive posts are deleted and/or urged to be ontopic and constructive instead, eventually at pain of the silly poster being suspended from the "council"

/Mariachi

why not let the noobs make the decinsion and tell the "vets" sry
ihavent been here very long probaly be regarded as a noob...but
i had a ton of arguements with people like eyic...about upgrades
i think u have no chance even if ur ideas great if a vet goes nope i hate......
its stoopid!!!

*agrees with Juice Box* I think the discussion has pretty much run its course... now how do we get Michal to read it and make a decision?

He has probably already forseen such events >.>

Michael, end this dispute and make a decision quick!

I think I said something earlier about a Soldat senate earlier about how a senate would suck.

After reading NC's proposal, I've changed my mind.

I want this instituted into Soldat! [:D]

nc.. i actually think this wont work at all...
i read this thread diagonalle, so im going to say what i think about it, despite me being a n00b, experienced or a giraffe.. firstly, we would probably be looking forward to a new changed soldat, in which auto guns would be less powerfll, ruger would be more powered, barret would be nerfed and so on, and so on, and so on.. by doing this, one would ruin the "constant" update and the thrills of new patches.. at first, i confess i didnt like this new version.. but i now like it! one must accept changes and wait for new updates to come, instead of a new multi pack update thingy, wich would ruin soldat as it is..
secondly, the choosing of the panelist. if this idea would go on, i would only say that it should be opened for EVERYONE and that everyone's opinion ought to count! otherwise it would be like a bunch of old fools, who would like to see barrets flying all over the place and stat guns (this aint to hit anyone).
thirdly.. i guess that theres is nothing else to say.. except that i hope that michal doesnt abandon the game, and that ill be looking forward for new versions, as bad as they are..
forgive me if i said anything wrong/excused/piece of sh|t..

Yeah thats a good point. Soldat could get worse and worse until its terrible! I dont want to know that I wasted my money for registering :P

Aquarius - "Oh, really? Which one of these features are proposed by the best Soldat minds? Of course, some of them are - BUT NOT ALL OF THEM."

nonono, the idea isn't to let ONLY the people on this panel's ideas get through, not at all. In fact, most of the ideas will come from others.

In this case, the panel acts as a 'filter', to get rid of all the crap, and just let the good stuff through.



"You called Michal a brick wall [:P]"

LOL! No but I didn't mean Michal, I just meant the whole process, anyone in the beta knows what I mean.



Denacke - "1: There will always be people flaming even in the special team."

No, first of all, one would hope that the selection process cleared the panel of flamers :P
And second, flames don't achieve anything, so the selected people just wouldn't do it - and if they would, then they wouldn't be selected :)



Rocky - some good points.

I also agree that they shouldn't know eachother, but generally if they don't visit the forum they won't have much of chance of even knowing about the panel ;)
There's a few other things here, like; If they know the game well, then they would have played a lot of people, and thus even without going ot the forums, would be well-known.



Denacke - "he probably won't go trough all the posts from the "elite" team."

Well the hope here is that he will ;)
To my knowledge, he looked through every single thread in the beta forum (until the final version was released anyway).



El_Mariachi - yup, that's the idea. First choose people that are unlikely to flame, second discourage them, third delete the flames and remove the offending member.



Da cHeeSeMaN - "i think u have no chance even if ur ideas great if a vet goes nope i hate......
its stoopid!!!"

Well, if a single vet says 'no', then that won't affect the outcome too much. But if all the vets say no, then hell, it's a crap idea! :P



Souza - "everyone's opinion ought to count!"

Everyone's opinion will count. Don't get me wrong, this isn't to take the power from the people, it's to present it to Michal in a form that he can use.
It's the people's ideas that continue to make the game better.

"otherwise it would be like a bunch of old fools, who would like to see barrets flying all over the place and stat guns "

o.O

Actually most of us (probably every soldat player) didn't like the stat guns being overpowered, and we would like to see a balanced barret solution.



Alrighty, well the current step is to get Michal's opinion. I've PMed him with the page... Let's see what he thinks (It's all up to him [:)]).

i see this idea is becoming what i thought it would be, a real "congress", coz the plan is to be a selective group for the game suggestions/improvements forum, everyone posts his ideas on that forum, then this congress discusses the issue, and then a votation comes up to see if it will go to the congress accepted ideas forum.
this last forum ("congress accepted ideas forum"), is the one Michal should read, so he wont go lost/crazy in the suggestions forum, here he will see the best ideas after being filtered by a "congress" votation.
this idea is good for the game, the players (and if the players are happy, the money goes up ;D)

so keep this last idea in mind.

wow! well i didn't read all of the thread.. its just too much.
but i understood the genral idea! wich is very very very good.
the hard thing ofcourse is to choose who will be in this senate..
from my experience.. the age matter is a very good factor.
although we got ppl like TFS who's only 15 but very suitable for the senate.
maturity is very important when one is given so much power to decide for others. so i think a votation should be made.
but only players from minimum age could vote. (what age? i'll let u be the jodge)
in the end. every one will benefit. because the senate will be made of ppl that can and will decide beyond their own opinion and wishes.
and pls. do it fast.
about what weed said. about making more money.
i think the soldat comunity stayed only because soldat was what it was.
not because of the first fun impresion. i myself discovered the real fun that soldat can bring only after a few months. so for any newbe who quits because its not fun for him there will be 2 newbes who will become vets eventualy.

<- me like

First i like to say that this is a brilliant idea and I think Michal will like it very much indeed.


General Suggestions:

The panel should work as a filter of all suggestions och addons, bugfixes plus many other features brought to up to them. The council will then discuss what can be done and then present it to Michal. The number of members in the council should be 9. All decision made in the council should be agreed among the reasonable members if possible. If not, there will be a vote. And I chose the odd number 9 to prohibit that any of the results coming out even within the council.

The council will one private and one public #quakenet mirc chanel and also one private and one public section in the forums where the discussion will take place. There will be 2 meeting per mouth to start with.

The council should consist of a wide variety of expertise.
The council must have a group intelligence, and not mainly Clan players, forum crawlers, etc.

And by group intelligence I mean for example:
- One who knows the forums very well (Like NC)
- One who knows he's way with coding.
- One who has organizing skills, mainly for setting up one public and one private mirc chanel aswell as arranging meetings.
- One who know a lot about computer hardware/software

And many others to mix up the group to make it as functional as possible. And it's important that as many as possible should be very experienced soldat players part from having some other special knowledge.

On the question who's gonna represent the council I first thought, "im not touching that with a five feet pole" but i really think that the vets/future council are the most experienced and are more qualified of making the right decisions and know what matters to prioritize then a "noob"- or by NC called "experienced" representives.

But all questions will be taken seriously and discussed coming from anyone in the forum no matter how long you've been playing the game. And "you need to trust that it would make the right decisions, and acknowledge that what you want may not be the best thing for the game" -NC

The main reason of creating this council is simply to make Soldat more fun to play.

We have to start to find people that qualify to be members of the council and figure out the appropriate way of electing them.

How on earth do 'we' plan on electing the cream of the crop among ourselves without the bickering we're all trying to stray from?
I can't see any solid way of going about it, other than God/Bruce Springsteen/Goku/Michal Marcinwookie stepping in and saying who gets on the first rocket to The New World order. Otherwise, can dividing ourselves from 'the wise' and 'common man' really be done on our own?

Hey this is something i can actually contribute to with my good all-around knowledge [:)]

Well just my oppion, but the best people for the job would be...

Outcast
Nightcabbage
That [:-censored]ing sniper
EnjoyIncubus
Kazuki
Doggfatha
Hercule portriot (sorry if mispelt)
Eyic
Spike
Wormdundee
Slayer
Dna Styx along with other mods


And that's it i think, hope i didn't forget ne1...

just my opinions:

the idea - the idea itself overall is a good one. unfortunately, the idea was brought up on 1/25 and still there is no feedback from the one person who could make this a reality.

the panel - the main topic of this discussion has gone to who will be on this panel. personally, i believe the right people for this panel would have to follow a certian criteria.

imo, panel memebers should be:

1) non flamers - flamers contribute nothing to the community, nor the game. a panel with people who are notorious for flaming would only end up in argument.

2) non whiners - same as flamers. they contribute nothing to the community, nor the game. a panel with whiners would be a panel with closed minded people who are afraid or unable to accept change, unless it is in their best benefit.

3) knowledgeable of the game to the aspect that they have tried all weapons, learned the pros and cons of each weapon, and are able to make decisions based upon this knowledge. ie, someone who has only played the barret exclusively has no concept of the true pros and cons of other weapons, nor the tactics employed in using other weapons, therefore their contribution to any discussion would only be one sided.

4) creativeness. this is essential. an uncreative mind produces very little.

5) ability to stay on the topic at hand. how many times has an idea been posted, and someone comes in with the response, "no, i don't like this. i'd rather michal work on something else." ok, with this type of response we know you don't like the idea, but the reasoning on why the idea is unliked is not linked to the topic at hand, and is therefore unproductive. instead, giving a valid explanation as to why the idea is not liked would be a much better response and open the idea to refinement and tuning which may be a viable idea that could have a chance of getting into the game.

6) maturity would probably be the greatest factor when deciding who will be on this panel. the ability to discuss ideas in an open and mature manner is of the utmost importance. not only does this eliminate the flamers, whiners and the folks who tend to drift off topic, but also guarantees that the view points of each member will be presented in a fashion easily understandable by all and avoiding endless conflicts of opinion, for the simple fact that each member would be more open minded to the other members view points and ideas and be able to discuss each and every idea and aspect in a manner respectable to the other members.

just my 2 cents: comments?

omg that's who i forgot,

Morpheus
Bluey/Bluesfear/Spyder

Hercule portriot????
:P
come on it can't be so hard to write right.. poirot... poi(SON)rot(TEN) ehhh :/

anyway i don't know why my name is on list

but i have many suggestions to improve many maps...

well, as u can see everyone's opinions difer from the rest, for example, Blade wrote a list of ppl that should be in, but i actually saw no explanation for which reason they should be in.
i totaly agree with morpheus on this one, specially on the maturity factor, im not saying a 12 year old is immature, i just know it. im not saying a 22 year old has to be mature, even tho logic says so, knowing the man can give a different point of view.
back to u Blade, u wrote some names that actually made me laugh, actually this forum has a lack of civilized entities, but yet, some capable ppl can be found in the remainings...

so ill just repeat, this is totaly worthless unless michal and styx will care bout this issue, even tho i dont trust they will, since everyone likes power, and when u give power away, u lose some of ur power.

If u'd like i can explain them, it's just that i had a lack of time which is y i forgot bluey and morpheus

Outcast -been playing soldat for a very long time, understands the physics and what's good and bad about soldat.
Nightcabbage -Been a mod b4, very trustworthy and his oppinions are for Soldat not himself, he helps soldat with bugs and such so he's the master in that catagory.
That ing sniper -Mature, knows soldat inside out, knows what will work and what wont b4 it's even released.
EnjoyIncubus -Obviously the mapping expert, along with a long time player, mod, and basicly knows a hella lot bout soldat.
Kazuki -May be surprised but this guyz oppinions are just what soldat needs, he stays quite logical and knows just the thing to suggest.
Doggfatha -One of the older players, his oppions are respected and he thinks things through.
Hercule poirot (happy?) -Good mapper, has good suggestions for map improvements, helped soldat with 1.2 and had some of the best input there.
Eyic -Laugh i don't care, he may seem immature to u but he points out the wrongs in things, maybe he doesn't have the solution but he knows the problems.
Spike -Mature, manages to suggest or create things that are succesful, SCTFL for example, very organized and has a sense for soldat.
Wormdundee -Sometimes on the foolish side but wormy's been playing for a while, seen it all basicly, and knows what's wrong and right with soldat.
Slayer -Plain and simply, he's smart, only suggests when he's needed but he knows exactely when he's needed. His suggestions usually are different but sometimes effective.
Dna Styx along with other mods -Well duh.
Bluey -Organized, Has lead the most succesful league(SCTFL season 1) And he too is one of the older ones in soldat. His oppinions would be needed for the clan point of view, having access to most clan in soldat.
Morpheus -Obvious, All of his ideas blow people away, great knowledge of computers, knows how to improve soldat in more than just ideas, Like the network topic or w/e.

good job blade but has michal heard this idea yet ? :S

If i was michal i'd be sipping drambooi sitting in my deckchair on a reserved beach in Jamaica, telling an overly tanned babe how I managed to save up enough money from people's registrations for a game I made to have this (arguably) well deserved holiday.

Yay thank you blade I feel so loved :D

Np.

As for catagories/parties

Map Related Party
Realistic Party
Gameplay Party
Difficulty Party
Bug Party
Registration Party
Technical Party(The People that know about computers and [:-censored])

That's the best that i can come up with.

If you vote me, ILL MAKE THE GAME GOOD!

Can I be in the panel?? :)

I've read all 7 pages and much was said, I'll try to be short but I have to explain some things because people take this game so seriously.
Ok, I don't agree with Night Cabbages idea. What do you want to do? Make the game better? Then why are you guys playing politics just go play the game and have fun. Leave me this job. I agree mostly with Aquarius. You want good but I don't think it would come out good.
Look, you can't divide people in 3 classes and make a panel. Why don't you divide these 3 classes in 2 subgroups: forum members and people that don't participate in the community but just play. Their vote would not count because they do not belong to the forum, but they know the game better because they play more. Also I don't agree that vets know what is good for the game, they know what is good for themselves. Only I can change Soldat, I know that I've made the right decisions in Soldat 1.2. The beta testers helped me develope it, they made a good job. The only thing that people complain and always complained (some people don't remember the complaining in 1.05b but I do) is weapons balance. For me it is perfect now. Most people get used to new weapon settings and play. But some will never be happy. I have total control of all aspects of Soldat. The only thing I do not want to do anymore is balancing the weapons. That is why I decided to release a weapons editor with the next version of Soldat. There will be original weapon settings and they will stay as in Soldat 1.2. But if you will feel that something needs to be changed or you want to experiment there will be a possibility to make your own weapons mod. So the whole community can make their own weapons settings and maybe they will be better than mine. This will be good for Soldat, weapons editing made Liero live for a long time and I hope it will do the same for Soldat.

Michal, I can understand that you're sick of the balancing issue, but how will the weapon mods work? It could open a few gates for cheaters :

It is good to know that Michal will not accept only a bunch of people suggesting him. Even though I disagree with the balanced weapons if he releases a wepon change then everything will be fine. Good job once again Michal!

Could you give more details Mike? How would you know what server posesses which weapons mod? How big would the average mod be in size? Could they be auto-downloaded from the servers themselves?

By the way, I think the suggestion for this senate was spurred by looking back on the rather divided beta testers and their ...um...level of ...well basically alot of them were cock-ups. Perhaps you could be a little more selective come the next beta?

quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowski
But if you will feel that something needs to be changed or you want to experiment there will be a possibility to make your own weapons mod. So the whole community can make their own weapons settings and maybe they will be better than mine. This will be good for Soldat, weapons editing made Liero live for a long time and I hope it will do the same for Soldat.

Great! But I hope the weapon editor won't be the last improvement, especially for people making mods.

Mike, i totally respect your decision. Its your game and i think its good you put this issue to bed. I think the biggest problem was not 1.2 itself but the actual delay in releasing it. The hype and wait increased everyones expectations that it would make soldat a million times better. So even tho in my opinion soldat is an improved game it didnt meet peoples expectations.

quote:forum members and people that don't participate in the community but just play. Their vote would not count because they do not belong to the forum, but they know the game better because they play more.
I think this is in my opinion is wrong. If they arent willing to join and participate in the community why should they have a say? Most likely they would play the game for a week and leave, go back and play cs or something.
Also, there is no way that most ppl on the forums play less than some new player. If you play a game for a long time its natural that you should progress to the forums / community as you want to be more involved. I still play almost everyday and i play against people from the forums all the time.

The forums are the best source of feedback from the widest variety of people. If this thread shows anything its that pepole want to help you create the best game that soldat can be. This was never about removing your control or power over the direction of soldat, but more about the most efficent and effective way to help you sort though the suggestions for improvements.

Weapon mod is the greatest compromise. If somebody claims he can balance them better, he is free to try. That way everybody will sotp underestimating the complexity of all the subtilities that are necessary to attain balance. I believe that there is no such thing as perfect balance, and other solution will only be differently unbalanced to suit everybody's taste.

I just hope this won't ruin the game by dividing the players.

[xx(]Man this is almost getting religious.

quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowski
Then why are you guys playing politics just go play the game and have fun.

this bit cracked me up lol :D

ill join the pannel if im given the opportunity, i have a few idea which could perfectly balance the gameplay no player would have a distinct advantage over the other...but well have to wait and see

But how would you know who the "Experienced" and "Veteran" players would be? Those who have over a certain number of posts? I thought this was about the game. I think all those names that Blade said hang around alot here on the forums. I've been playing since before 1.0.5b (can't remember the version number, though) and I would like to consider myself as a Vet. But since I've been spending some time away from soldat now, I could be mistaken for a noob. Heh.
But my point is that there are many people out there who just like me doesn't run around the forums but just play the game. And those people would have a hard time getting in to this kind of stuff since "noone" "knows" them.

That is right macce, but Michal had already rejected this. Whoever wanna suggest use improvements board, as i sadi.

Actually, Macce, I have very few posts, but I have been playing Soldat for over a year now. I think that might get me into the Experienced field, or at least I hope =/ I dont know much about the history of Soldat though, and Im definately not a vet =) By the way, thanks Blade.

Lol np, and ur definitely gettin up there kaz :D (I ain't a noob, newbie, or vet, im a newbet.:D

Who cares who you are, newbie or vet. The idea is rejected, forget it.

Michal I respect your decision and mostly agree with your views on this but there are somethings that I dont agree on some things but the idea is regected so this topic has nothing more to contribute except for spam

One more thing TIR you made a short list of people to go on the list and while I dont respeact him even the slighest bit I must say that BMF should of been on the list, ok I know he annoys a lot of people including me but he has a lot of experience with soldat and could really help the game, im sure a lot of you will agree that hes been playing longer than you

If BMF annoys a lot of people doesn't that mean he's too immature?
--> That will lead to flaming flaming an simulate the same effect as on almost every post on this forum (Very sad)

Well, BMF actually tries to stop Spam and Flaming sometimes :P He's not that bad and knows more than some of us here.

"Also I don't agree that vets know what is good for the game, they know what is good for themselves."

I agree

I dont agree...
Vets know what their talking about, n00bs suggest random stuff, and Michal implements the lame crap n00bs suggest so that they decide to register, as weed said on another thread this is all about the money, Michal dont give a crap about vets that leave soldat, coz he woulda probably gotten their money already ;D

As you can see, soldat is currently n00b friendly (all weapons can be used BY ANYBODY), Michal has impressed the n00bs... Now on servers all I can see is n00bs boasting about how they own everybody and then they start acting like total wannabe's, and start boasting about their score, and think they "own" using a weapon... basically everyone can use all the weapons, and thats just retarded.

Michal bring back the weapon balance and then neerf the barret a lil and EVERYTHING WOULD BE PERFECT.
So who will it be, us or the n00bs? -_-

Id go play the game if it was any fun.

quote:Originally posted by Outcast
Id go play the game if it was any fun.


Umm what if you dont like the game what are you doing here?

Oh yeah am playing the game on the forums via flash or java. You stupid muppet, shut up.

Outcast - Element was simply saying that the forums revolve completely around Soldat, and if you have no interest in the game, why do you have interest here? It was a simple question. Christ, you people can't stay in here for 5 minutes without flamin each other. Newsflash, you ain't the best. Also, the game might not be fun to you, but it is to most of us here.

'm00 - That's not a wise thing you got goin' there. If the game wasn't n00b friendly, how would new players start playing Soldat? And everyone is equally important in the Soldat world. Experienced players are just plain fun when in a match. Noobs make you feel proud because you did so good. Veterans are also real fun to play with and they know alot more than us, usually. Those are stupid examples, but I hope you see what Im saying.

And Michal - Yes, it is true that only you control Soldat. And it's true that we're trying to control you in order to control Soldat. NC was just trying to come up with an idea that would possible make Soldat a better place :P

Well, even tho i knew this would happen, it just proves my point, whoever wants to know it, can talk to me.
im really dissapointed, and thats all i got to say, u all can keep licking god's balls, i dont give a damn anymore.