first off i would like to plead with u guys out there not to turn this into a bash pit type thread. its a serious topic that i would like to discuss with yall..

what are your thoughts on the subject? are you pro abortion? against it?

why?

we were covering this topic in religious studies today looking at the catholic churches viewpoint on the subject. you neednt be religious or have any understanding of religion to comment or add your thoughts to the mix

any constructive input would be much appreciated

cheers


EDIT: i found this after originally posting

1. There's a preacher and wife who are very, very, poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she's pregnant with her 15th. They're living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have 4 children. the 1st is blind, the 2nd is dead, the 3rd is deaf and the 4th has TB. she finds she's pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13 year old black girl and she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She's not married. Here fiancee is not the father of the baby, and he's very upset. Would you consider recommending abortion?



Answers:


If you have answered "yes" in any of these situations:

In the first case, you have just killed John Wesley. One of the great evangelists of the 19th century.

In the second case, you have killed Beethoven.

In the third case, you have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.

If you said yes to the fourth case, you have just declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

Lets just say that I have the good taste to keep my nose out of other people's buisness. Those who need to do it, go ahead. Those who are against it, dont do it. Its their choice. I have better things to do than to tell people what to do with their own lives, let alone their bodies. Unfortunately not everyone takes that approach...

To me, a person that says that abortion = murder can be answered with: "Well, sir, you are arrested for the genocidal killing of billions of sperm cells while jacking off". Hey, cells are living tissue, right? How come there are no organizations that try to make constitutional laws against masturbation, I ask?

The same contradiction can be used against a person that is pro-abortion but says that killing is wrong. It is all a relative psychology. In the end it is the need for the abortion that matters, which is the reason it was invented in the first place. The need for it will make some people use it, and some people who dont have anything better to do will just yell around trying to lecture about morals.

Live and let live.

i hear where youre comming from tfs

but simply jacking off isnt murder... in order for it to be, conception would have had to take place.

im not one of those harliners that pickets abortion clinics and harasses the patrons ofd these establishments as theyre entering it..

i have my own ideas on the subject and if someone asks me ill share them.
simply yelling in someones face really doesnt solve anything.

crap i just killed 4 people


oh and maddox did a thing about abortion but it kinda changes subject
Looking for a safe stance on abortion? Me neither.

I am against abortion. I think nobody have a right to decide about someone's death or life. And if the man's and woman's cells will meet, you cant stop the new organism from growing without killing it.

Jacking off is not killing, because the sperm cells are not organisms, sperm cells are the parts of my organism. True, a child needs his mother's organism for the first 9 months to survive, but is not a reason to kill him.

i kept thinking you wrote orgasm

ROTFLMAO! [:D]

I'm pro-abortion. Being within the London area, all too often I see girls only just leaving their teens and already wielding a child or more.

As understandable as Aquarius says "no one has the right to decide over life and death", I feel it's more important that no one should take on a child when they can barely take care of themselves. There are countless parents living in council housing, getting high and sniffing coke, still trying to live their party-lives and who only see their children as burdens, growing up very confused and untamed. No child should have to grow like that.

living without orgasms

I am pro Abortion, where is that cool moderator?

i played him in a DM a few weeks ago.

quote:Lets just say that I have the good taste to keep my nose out of other people's buisness. Those who need to do it, go ahead. Those who are against it, dont do it. Its their choice. I have better things to do than to tell people what to do with their own lives, let alone their bodies. Unfortunately not everyone takes that approach...
I agree with TFS 100%, this is my position. Now I will leave this thread never to come back.

1. No, "Sorry kid, I am too poor so you can't live" I reccomend adoption.

2. No, I remember this little thing and wasn't the next baby Beethoven?

3. Yes, she should have a choice since she did not have a choice at conception.

4. No

I see people heading for abortion just whiners who want to not take responsiblilty. Unless they were raped I don't believe in abortion.

chakra, wouldnt you agree that adoption would be a much better way than murder?
because thats what it really comes down to doesnt it.. whether or not a child should DIE for your mistake.
if the woman was raped, should the child die for his/her fathers problems?

i mean whats the point in making someone else pay from some scumbags crime?

I really think that instead of abortion that a person should choose adoption, because you really never know what could happen to eitehr help you along and raise the kid right and him/her be a very important person. Also the abortion procedure may harm the mother and why risk two lifes?

It's not so much a question of whether a child should die for their parents mistakes, but should a kid really have to live with what follows?

As for adoption, it is an ideal solution to this process, but such a process is long and obviously requires effort from the original parents. Also, there just isn't a big enough market for adopting kids...unless you live close to Michael Jackson.

Is a fetus something that is a human? I mean, the fetus passes through many states that we have in common with almost everyother mammal, and some reptiles etc. Is it allright to kill an unsentient rat/lizard? hmm, troubling....
I mean, there is a limit to when u are allowed to abort, and, its a hard line to draw but, as long as doctors and scientists agree, or has a general consensus that it is ok to abort before a certain time, im all for it. Killing a newborn child, no, killing something that is basically an unconscious rat on its way to become human, in order to prevent possible really crappy situations, i think its allright.
/Mariachi

i think if there hadn't ever been a jesus, there would be alot less wars, religion would not interfere with science and.... ok i think im just gonna stop there. but i dont care about beethoven, i think his music was fine, but i doubt it really influenced anything since classical music was like nu-metal back then. it all sounded the same. if there was no jesus there wouldnt have been another rich gospel singer to leech money off naive people who cant grasp their mortality. i dont know about that 1 dude cause i havent learned about him in school yet. but im sure we coulda used him. abortion is ok for teens, wrong for adults

the problem is that every person has the choice to do their own thing, thats not really a problem right? for the church it is... i guess they preffer having people comply like zombies instead of having their own mind.
if a woman wants to abort, but she is religious, [:-censored] her, she is a sinner... well, your a sinner too if you look at women anyway...
my point is, [:-censored] religious people, they should abort to keep the world out of idiots.

quote:Originally posted by Aquarius
I am against abortion. I think nobody have a right to decide about someone's death or life. And if the man's and woman's cells will meet, you cant stop the new organism from growing without killing it.

Jacking off is not killing, because the sperm cells are not organisms, sperm cells are the parts of my organism. True, a child needs his mother's organism for the first 9 months to survive, but is not a reason to kill him.


A fetus is also a partof the mother/father's organism. It isnt considered an organism on its own yet. Just as sperms are. So if killing a fetus is wrong, how is massacaring masses of sperm cells different? You might just as well try to inject them into a woman's vagina and hope it would grow to become a fully grown child.

But that isnt really my arguement. I think that anyone can have his opinion. Nobody can stop you. But what I'm against is having an opinion of a single person/group of people enforced upon everyone else. The mother who decides she cannot bear the baby, weather because of financial, psychological, of physical reasons, should be able to have an abortion without molestation. And the people who dont support it can just as easily avoid having one. Everyone is happy? Let people do what they need to do. Thats what I think is the ultimate opinion.

Here's why I'm not against abortion: The movement against abortion comes from misgivings about killing a potential child. But death is all around us, its everywhere. We eat animals and plants, we spray insect nests to kill them as pests, we destroy oral bacteria that wont have misgivings about destroying our teeth otherwise, we have facilities that breed animals for scientific experiments, which in alot of cases result in (rather unpleasant) fatalities. We cant live without it. What we eat was a living thing once, for example. Why dont we have all these corporations banning food? Hey, we *kill* animals and plants for food, right? Isnt that wrong? No? Why? Because we *need* to eat? Same thing for abortion. Some people see that they cant support their children, so it is their *need* to drop the child with an abortion. Same goes to vegitartians who refrain from eating meat because they believe it causes animals plain. Yet they eat plants. If you translate plant anatomy into mammal, you will see that a fruit is actually a womb of a sort, and the seed is a fetus. Basically, when you eat an apple, you are ripping the womb open, consuming it, and throwing the "children" to the trash. Just because plants cant express pain, doesnt mean that the overall organism doesnt suffer.

Live with it, you kill to live. Dont deny it because it just became apparent. ;)

Lets not forget sneezing. In a way, that's attempted suicide.

and to continue my last post...
the problem with religious people, is that they try to stick their ideals up on everyone's butts.
for example, my city has both religious and non-religious citizens.
lately, a shop that opens on saturday (holy day for jews) and sells non kosher food, and pig meat (totally against jeudaism) was allowed to open a shop of their's over here.
now the problem is that the religious idiots, are protesting and trying to get them to close. why is that? because they are trying to enforce the religion upon everyone.
in every democratic country, there is a law, as part of the human right, it's freedom of religion, and a part of that law says that a religion cant be enforced upon someone who doesnt follow it's rules.
yet you got those idiotic religious cultists trying to close a shop, so that people who isnt religious wont have a place on town to buy something on saturday, nor buy non-kosher food.
same goes for abortion, if a woman wants to abort, it's her right to do so if it isnt illegal on her country, but yet, she will have to put up with those idiots protesting in front of the abortion clinic.

christianity rules.

weed, whyd u have to go and ruin a good thread with all your anti religion crap..

because i love you ^_^

quote:Originally posted by that fuking sniper
A fetus is also a partof the mother/father's organism. It isnt considered an organism on its own yet. Just as sperms are. So if killing a fetus is wrong, how is massacaring masses of sperm cells different? You might just as well try to inject them into a woman's vagina and hope it would grow to become a fully grown child.
I don't agree. In my opinion 'fetus' is a human being. He is not just another part of the mother organism. He is a newcomer. The true is that he behaves like a parasite (although parasites are bad ;) - it uses mother's organism to keep alive in the first 9 months. When he can survive in a normal environment, he leaves mother's organism. And nobody can stop him ;)

There is no much difference between a child in the 8 month or right after he was born. Now he is breathing by his lungs and he is just in another place. But he is still growing and he still needs other humans to keep alive. Does it mean that we can kill a baby? No, we can't.

In my opinion nobody should decide about human's death or life - except himself. And for me growing means "I want to live".

Wow havn't seen a serious thread like this in these forums in a long time.

I have to agree with tfs, if no one had abortions the world would become so overpopulated it would be really bad! When it comes to life everyone should be able to say if they live or die of course but there has to be limit somewere and if adoption is the only option then take it theres nothing wrong with it except that some orphans dont ever get a family thats really sad...

quote:if no one had abortions the world would become so overpopulated it would be really bad!

*cough* no

quote:some orphans dont ever get a family thats really sad...


so you should kill them instead?

life, or no life

/me always feels that his posts get ignored ;)
I mean, u dont abort eight month pregnancies, its up to about four or five months at the very most`?

/mariachi

What is the difference if he is 8 or 3 months old? No difference for me. He is just younger, thats all.
Killing someone, because he has 3 month, and not 8 is an absurd. No matter how old is he,
he is still a child and a human beeing.

Human life can be divided into some parts, but no matter which part it is, it is still a human.
I am against killing human beeings.

[code]
HUMAN LIFE:

-9m pregancy 0y childhood ~14y teenage ~20y human adult form
O ------------ growing ------------> O -------------- growing --------------------> O ------------- growing -----------------> O ---------- getting older ---------------> DEATH
| | | |
Both cells meet themselves Now he can live outside mother Now he is starting to transform The creation of the adult human
a new human beeing is created organism. He leaves, but but he is still into the adult form. His sex attributes is done. No he is getting older
He is starting to grow. to small to live on his own. Nothing has starts to grow and change. untill he will die.
changed: he is still dependand and he is
still growing.
[/code]
I think the youngest human forms should PROTECTED, not killed.
You never know who will he be in the future: maybe he will be great scientists or just a good man?
Abortion is killing someone, who can't defend himself, the same like killing 2 years old kid.

Ah, well, I understand the arguement that takes its fuel from the "sanctity of human life". What i dont agree with is when a pack of cells are essentially entitled to the term a human being. Now, i dont want to get into an arguement where the whole point is what the term SHOULD define, id rather argue what kind of definition is best suited in these kind of arguments.
Now, at the early embryonic stages, where, for example, a day after pill could be used, the pack of cells is a blastula, morula, or gastrula, and is basically a jellyfish with human dna. Now, I wudnt call that sentient, for it is to be precise less than a jellyfish, it doesnt have nerves yet. Now, i dont mind an abortion on that jellyfish just because it has a human genome, and i guess this is where we dont agree. I believe that my point of view is a more pragmatic one, and, because of that, i have to suffer from the fact that drawing a line between human and nonhuman is dodgy, however, i believe it is, in terms of human happiness, the best way to go.
Of course, the more dogmatic argumenters have the power of being able to point out to me just how hard it is to draw the line, but, on the other hand, this is something, since it is happening to real humans, and real lives, something that must have some measure of rationality and pragmaticism imho. At the end of the day, its a horrible thing that abortions has to happen, in the ideal world, they wudnt, all contraceptives wud work, rapists didnt exist, shattered homes, poverty, all had to be nonexistent. This is not an ideal world, and therefore, it shudnt be treated as such. Since the "sanctity of human life" is idealistic thinking, its nice and all, but, until we get the world that we want, itll spawn more grief than joy.

/Mariachi

so, Aquarius, you are saying, that eventualy the person will die, then whats the fuss about not letting him live?
anyway half of the people of this planet shouldnt be alive, and if no one would abort, then retarded children would take over your country...
so are you trying to say that abortion has no excuse? well, someday, when your girl is pregnant (if you ever have a girl) and your son turns out to be a total retard, you will go back to this time and say "im an idiot, or just a religious idiot", or maybe you will give her money for an abortion, which will take you also back to this day saying to yourself "im an hypocrit"

as for GI.joe... well, your stupidity is worse then mine ^_^
if no one would abort, the world would be full of people, there will be alteast 1 billion more in this tiny world, thats why countries like china have a "1 kid per family" rule.

by Mariachi:
> is basically a jellyfish with human dna

For me it's a human being. Do you know why? Because he ACTS. And you have to kill him to stop him from growing.

I am not an idealist, being against abortion isn't idealistic at all. I just think it is bad to kill human beings.
What's so idealistic about it? There is a lot of bad things on the world: robbery, murders, frauds... these things
will NEVER disappear, the abortion won't dissapear either. Does it mean that I should support or tolerate it?

by Weed:
> so, Aquarius, you are saying, that eventualy the person will die, then
> whats the fuss about not letting him live?

Are you plain stupid or just joking?

> anyway half of the people of this planet shouldnt be alive

Who gave you the right about deciding who should live and who shouldn't.
This guy had exatly the same opinion like yours. You are disgusting.

Why do you value life so much? ...such a question sounds like something from a tune KnOt probably listens to, but a curry is only worth as much as the tongue it's placed on....if you catch my drift.

I think I understood you Chakra (I'm not sure ;]), but I can't agree with you.
It's like saying: "Naah, probably his life will suck, let's kill him." It is cynical.

It is false that if a child haven't experienced anything yet, he doesn't lose anything.
He loses his life. And a possibility to make his life good. Taking away the only 2 things he has is a crime in my opinion.

aquarius, maybe i am stupid, maybe my mother should've aborted me ^_^
but for real, people die every [:-censored]ing day, whats all the fuzz about more people dying?
after all, if a fetus is a human being for you, even tho it has no feelings, nor anythign (as far as i know)
then what's all the issue about...
and since when religion has anything to do with respecting human life? more people died in the name of "god" then people who died
in other wars.
all this love for human life... yeah right, it doesnt exist, people will never stop dying, and women will never stop aborting
its a magical circle.

err, a morula doesnt act, it means sumfing like, raspberry, and it has about the same mental capacity, or less. Its an embryonic stage.
Of course, we can differ a lot about what we think is acting, but, u need to read up on embryology if u want to argue with me in the
scientific sphere.
Where u say that abortion is a crime, i say it is a police, and thats where ur analogy is faulty. Police how sometimes has to shoot ppl
is unneccessary in an ideal world, as is abortions. See my point?
/Mariachi

by Weed:
> and since when religion has anything to do with respecting human life?
> more people died in the name of "god"

Did I say something about religion???
This topic is about abortion, not about religion. To be honest, I am not very religious person.

> but for real, people die every ing day, whats all the fuzz about more people dying?

It is not about dying (dying isn't good nor bad). It is about killing other people (killing is bad).

quote:Originally posted by El_Mariachi
err, a morula doesnt act, it means sumfing like, raspberry, and it has about the same mental capacity, or less. Its an embryonic stage.
Of course, we can differ a lot about what we think is acting, but, u need to read up on embryology if u want to argue with me in the
scientific sphere.

/Mariachi

Of course, morula doesn't look nor act like an adult human. It is just a few cells.
But those cells do the only thing they can do: are dividing themselves and the human is growing.

It is a continuous process. It is not like today you have a bunch of cells and tomorrow you will get a human.
You can't say that 30 day old fetus is not a human without human rights, but tomorrow he will be a human and he can't be killed.
It is an absurd.

Anyway, I think that human in morula stage (it's 4th day) is aborted rarely.
I suppose that usually the abortion happens much later.

I'm not competent enough to argue about embryology, especially in english. But some scientists and doctors,
even those who were aborting, are against abortion, so it's not like all antiaborionsts are uncompetent fanatics.
(I'm not saying that I'm a fanatic ;)

quote:Originally posted by El_Mariachi

Where u say that abortion is a crime, i say it is a police, and thats where ur analogy is faulty. Police how sometimes has to shoot ppl is unneccessary in an ideal world, as is abortions. See my point?
No. Do you want to say that an unwanted child is a criminal?

Killing is bad because you're denying the victim the chance for any further enjoyment in life.

On the other hand, killing is good because you're denying the victim the chance
for any further pain in life.

It's all circumstantial.

..hence i'm pro-abortion. Alot of kids go through hell because of extremely inadequate parents,
growing up as a mirror to their surroundings only to go on repeating their parents mistakes,
putting others through the same loop. Life can be exceptionally bad for some, even in the most
developed of worlds.


Also, I don't think it's a matter of the embryo-to-teen-wrecking-your-car thing. I think the arguement is that an embryo doesn't really have a consciousness, or a sense of self-awareness. Thus any death in this state is most likely as important as stepping on a flower....of course if flowers started talking....[:I]

this is gonna be better then the barret threads

quote:Originally posted by Chakra
Killing is bad because you're denying the victim the chance for any further enjoyment in life.

On the other hand, killing is good because you're denying the victim the chance
for any further pain in life.

It's all circumstantial.

..hence i'm pro-abortion. Alot of kids go through hell because of extremely inadequate parents, growing up as a mirror to their surroundings only to go on repeating their parents mistakes, putting others through the same loop. Life can be exceptionally bad for some, even in the most developed of worlds.

Think what are you talking about! You are saying about killing someone, without giving him any chance to try the real life.

If you say so, there should be a police, which look for unhappy people and kill them.

But there is no life without pain and there is no happyness withoud sadness!

And HOW DO YOU KNOW that all his life will be bad? People are making their life good or bad. Not money, not environment,
not even parents. Happynes is a state of mind. If someone really want, he CAN make his life good.
Many people from the depth made their life GOOD. Would it be better if they would be aborted?
Beethoven would like to be aborted? I don't think so.

I have a friend, he was adopted. He is a very happy person. What if he would be aborted? I wouldn't have the friend now [:(]

Heh, nice argument, i love it!
Well, I admitted that the border between what can be considered a human with all the rights that come with it and a bunch of cells is
a hard one to draw, i do however trust the general consensus amongs the medical expertise thats is proabortionists, and, i believe they
outnumber the ones that are antiabortionists.

Nice to see u read up on the morula thing :)

And about the analogies:
No, im not saying that a fetus is destined to be a criminal, not by far! Im using the analogy to illustrate that police sometimes
has to use force to prevent potential bad situations to arise. Just as abortions can be used to prevent really bad situations to
take place.

So, I guess it all comes down to:
Is the eventual benefits with abortions and the need to make a definition of what is worthy of human rights greater than the chance of
that line being drawn at the wrong time?
And
Is abortion always wrong, since it somehow meddle with what some sees as natural processes in the human being, and as such, deserves
total precedence over any interests that the mother can have.

/Mariachi

I guess Aquarius would love to live in infrahuman conditions, since abortion is bad in every conditions...
Or maybe not live, simply starve after being born. Because it is better to have a slow and painful death than a quick and painless death.
This is how a Christian mind works, they love the pain.

OOoohh.. looks like a nice thread to force my opinion on other people: "I'm pro-choice because I like the idea of murdering little helpless babies!"

But on the more serious side: I understand where pro-lifers are coming from. If I had somewhere contracted (yes, like a disease) the idea that stem cells where in some way human then I might consider abortion to be murder. To bad I was given a proper education and I know that human foetuses are identical to other mamal foetuses for a long time (I'd venture about 4 months) so if you somehow need to justify abortion you can use that.

However I don't see why we have to be forcing our own opinions on other people. If you're pro-life then you go right ahead and bring millions of under priviledged kids into this world whoose only fate is prostitution or worse. On the other hand if you are pro-choice then you go right ahead and murder all the little babies in the world as long as they are contained within your own womb. Both factions seem to have this need to assert the validity of their opinions and why they are right. The point of western freedom is that we are free to be different, totalitarianism is, by definition, freedom to conform and thus share the same opinions on everything.

I haven't read all the replies, but umm, I took that picture today, we visited an exposition called "Body worlds" so I got to see brains, muscles, veins etc.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6820/Img3_0001.jpg
it's the only pic I took (wasn't allowed to)
there was a paper with a quote from a philosoph and it said that death is nothing bad and if you pity the dead, then you should pity the unborn too.
Nobody asks you if you want to be born. It just happens and *poof* there "you" are. "You" = your consciousness.

I think, as soon as something has a consciousness/mind it's alive, whether it wants to or not. (can't find the words for it, even in german, it's just a feeling+idea at the same time)
Hrmm...

but you see boosta, even if Aquarius girl would have a 5 headed kid without arms, he wouldnt let her abort, because he is against that.
or he would let her abort by giving some excuse like "it's her own choice".
or just take her to a clinic by himself thus proving he is an hypocrit.
life is to be respected, but not all lives are to be respected.

Hmm, theres one bottom line to this.

All of our opinions are relative. I can see where each and every poster in this thread is coming from. Even though some are contradictory to others. There is no right or wrong in this. The only wrong is in real life, where you have all these people trying to make laws to limit others (Especially in the USA) while they talk about freedom. Hypocrites.

thanks for all the input guys
i have to say i was quite surprised at the response from some* of yall

:)

*excludes Weed
quote:life is to be respected, but not all lives are to be respected.

are you high? or are you just really stupid?

no dear, not high nor stupid (i think), do you respect all life on earth?
you never killed a spider?

I did not talked about freedom because freedom is bad for health. Thx to freedom we have wars and everything bad in this world.

quote:Originally posted by Weed
no dear, not high nor stupid (i think), do you respect all life on earth?
you never killed a spider?


no.. and i also respect spiders.. they catch flies which i also respect.

LOL. noobface, You make worst things than killing lifes, you pay people to do that for you so you can eat.

..noobface eats spiders? ...

explains alot really.

*me slaps n00bface with his willy

n00bface, what's that red mark on your face? Looks like someone slashed you with a tiny needle...

what red mark? :O I see a sphere and a cube

hehe, well Askur, thats why i look for girls with small hands ^_^

Would you kill Hitler when he was 10, and you know what he will do?

quote:Originally posted by palloco
Because it is better to have a slow and painful death than a quick and painless death.

I see.... [xx(]

quote:Originally posted by Famine
Would you kill Hitler when he was 10, and you know what he will do?


lol, never ask Aquarius if he would kill hitler before he was what he was... Aquarius worships Hitler ^_^

Not me... you do.