Alright... I mainly want to keep this thread directed at people outside the US if at all possible.

Would the World help the us with these two wars, should they "need to be fought." These are hypothetical wars, but given current climates I think they're ones that could be sparked with very little cause.



Location: Taiwan

The Short of it: Keep China from bitch smacking Taiwan or liberate Taiwan after said bitch smacking

The hypothetical cause: China invades Taiwan

The Long of it: A little background is required here. Great Brittain actually used to own Taiwan until recent years, as part of an international agreement. That power recently switched from their hands (To China or to Taiwan? I can't remember off the top of my head, sorry). Anyways, the primary consern is that China will basically go down into Taiwan and use military force to force them to become "part of China again". I'm 95% sure that most people in Taiwan do not want this to happen.

What the US is doing now: China's got a big part of their navy stacked up on the opposite side of Taiwan. Every few months the US goes and runs Navy drill through the strait to keep them back and remind them we're there.

Would the world help? Would your country help?



Location: North Korea / South Korea

The Short of it: The Korean War verson 2.0!

The hypothetical cause: North Korea invades South Korea and/or uses nuklear weapons.

The Long of it: North Korea has had a hard on for taking back South Korea as its own for some time. Only this time they've got nukes (Not per President Bush saying they do, as per the North Koreans saying they do).

What the US is doing now: Not sure. Nothing? We may be trying to use the UN for this one (wouldn't that be nice?).

Would the world help? Would your country help?

The UN is worthless IMO.

Every countries ambition is to become the strongest (That's unarguable), so that only means the UN will ultimately fail.

Anyway back on topic..I think yes. North/South Korea nuclear war would get the world to stop the North just to prevent a WWIII.

On the Taiwan one, I don't think as many people would care. Maybe no support...It just doesn't seem that important to most people. You have to admit, if it isn't you, you most likely won't care.

australia has fought in, and supported the USA in every war for the past 100 years..

so if so..we would probably have to come fight too..

quote:Originally posted by KelbaThe UN is worthless IMO.


I really want to disagree with that statement but I can't. The UN has set measures against both Iraq and the US and both countries basically flipped them the bird and went on doing what they wanted.

Iraq had measures set against it regarding their weaponry etc, and the UN didn't even want to back it up... which does show it to be a toothless organization.

I do support the UN's reason, but like I said, every countries ambition is become the strongest, and along with what you are saying, it doesn't always support itself on what it says.

wtf, ambition to become the strongest?
I'd like you to give some more information, arguments, and examples for that one.

North Korea is a possible danger for South Korea, for this world. As they still don't let in UN-Inspectors (since 2002) to control if they have or not have any 'mass destruction weapons' as nuclear bombs/high-quality uranium, they are a constant danger for this this world.
About every month there is a meeting arranged between the IAEA (The International Atomic Energy Agency), America, South Korea, Russia, Japan and North Korea, but North Korea still refuses to give any information about their nuclear activities cause they first want to stop the so-called 'US hostile policy' and they also want certain 'compensations' if they are obligated to stop their nuclear activities. Anyway, to be continued...

If there will be an intervention in North Korea, I expect the UN is joining the intervention, cause the certainty of the presence of high-quality uranium in North Korea is much bigger than in Iraq.

( By the way, some European news, the idea of a united European army getting more and more importance with the day in Europe. Cause the US made decisions without the approval of the UN, the European Community realized that the UN isn't so powerful at all.)

About Taiwan. Again a delicate matter. As Social Poison mentioned... Peking (China) sees Taiwan still as a 'province' ( an integral part of the Chinese area) of China, although Taiwan was separated from China in 1949. The last years there is a 'weapon-race' between the two countries, Taiwan wants to talk, but China already said they won't make Taiwan officially independent and are prepared to fight for the (in)dependency.

Again i'm pro a UN-intervention. A peacefully, mediative intervention, as long if it's possible. If China concludes to attack Taiwan, to use their military force, a military UN-intervention is needed.

At last, this.

quote: We may be trying to use the UN for this one (wouldn't that be nice?).


Believe me, both parties need each other. A good cooperation between the US and the UN is the best for this world. By the way, the European Union (all European countries, yes!), part of the UN, just decided (today!) to help rebuilding Iraq. ;-)

quote:Originally posted by Denackewtf, ambition to become the strongest?
I'd like you to give some more information, arguments, and examples for that one.


Please, prove me wrong.

I'm sure every country in the world will sacrifice their ambitions to become the strongest. Then we can hold hands and sing. [/sarcasm]

Really though, every world power wants to be the best. It's just a fact of life.

Notice, I said World Power. People in like Africa are focusing more on surviving rather than domination (except Egypt).

quote:Originally posted by Kelba

People in like Africa are focusing more on surviving rather than domination (except Egypt).


And Libia...

China stated it want draw into a full conflict against US. That means that if they invade Taiwan, US will withdraw from there in exchange of a (economical?)compensation and having some control over there.
North Korea wont do anything(at least in next few years), that is a stupid fear implemented to Americans.

EDIT: OH, and in Africa some countries are fighting to conquer others: Ethiopia against Eritrea, Morocco enslaved Sahara, and if you count Egypt you can count anything.

quote:Originally posted by Social PoisonLocation: Taiwan

The Short of it: Keep China from bitch smacking Taiwan or liberate Taiwan after said bitch smacking

The hypothetical cause: China invades Taiwan

The Long of it: A little background is required here. Great Brittain actually used to own Taiwan until recent years, as part of an international agreement. That power recently switched from their hands (To China or to Taiwan? I can't remember off the top of my head, sorry). Anyways, the primary consern is that China will basically go down into Taiwan and use military force to force them to become "part of China again". I'm 95% sure that most people in Taiwan do not want this to happen.

What the US is doing now: China's got a big part of their navy stacked up on the opposite side of Taiwan. Every few months the US goes and runs Navy drill through the strait to keep them back and remind them we're there.

Go back to school ;) Great Brittain has never owned Taiwan. UK owned Hong Kong. And United States officially (as most countries) do not accept Taiwan as an indenpendent country. Why? Because United States (as most other countries) prefer to do big bussiness with China. Taiwan is not even in UN. Of course, not officially USA supports Taiwan by selling them weapons.

I think that in case of war USA would do basicly the same what they are doing now - they would sell even more weapons to Taiwan and would criticize even more China while doing even more bussiness with them. It's called "machiavellism" I guess.

Would the world help? If making noise helps, than yes.
Would my country help? No.

But I don't think that the war is possible.

Ah, my mistake on the Taiwan / Hong Kong mix up (it's been a few yeas since I took that English history class). Though that doesn't entitle you to be a jackass, Aquarius, at least I knew Great Brittain had control of a major Asian industrial city until recently :P

And if the US isn't going to do anything then why do we run navy drills through that strait? I mean if we don't care... :P . And how do you think that war is not possible?

IMO the war is not possible, because:

- It is not possbile before 2009 (Olympic games :)))
- Taiwan isn't any serious threat.
- If China would like to invade Taiwan, they would do it in 60's or after the war in Vietnam, not in XXI century. Right now they are "opening to the world", and invading Taiwan would be a very bad move. China would lost much more than they could gain by owning the island.
- Sooner or later China and Taiwan may unite.

And I didn't said that USA don't care. They care about their interests in the region.

lol @ olympic games reason.

Hehe.

Though that was an aspect I hadn't thought of. China's in the midst of an economic boom so yeah it'd make sense that the outrage caused by the international community would likely hinder them. Any thoughts on the Korean war?

And really I'm a bit more interested in "Would the world help if the war happens?" not "Will the war happen?" We're talkin' hypothetical here.

HAHAH LIKE THE USA WOULD ATTACK SOMEONE WITHOUT BEING DIRECTLY MENACED / BENEFIT IN SOME WAY FROM IT*
IT TRULY IS THE LAND OF THE GOOD AND THE BRAVE
* not just economically
Also, why the [IMAGE] should be the USA allowed to have nuclear weapons (or WMDs)? No one should. That's indeed impossible, but not a reason for the USA to have them to keep at bay the 'evil asians that plot taking over the world'. The only reason i don't feel menaced is that right now, USA is dependant on Europe and the diplomatic relations are deep.
Stop thinking like they want you to people, we're not all living in America.
for Americans: keep on thinking like they want you to, you're on the good way to conquer the world, at least economically.

Wow Meandor, that WMD thing had nothing to do with the topic. Congrats.

So tell me Meandor, since you're oh so versed in American history... how did we benifit economically from the Vietnam war (or how would we have, had we won?). How about the Korean War? Tell me how it was we benifited economically from WWII or I? Did the US take a long time to get involved, sure but so did most of Europe (at least until they were attacked). That's why we came out better than most. But last I checked we also helped fund the reconstruction after the war.

Hell, the United States is the only country that will raze someone to the ground and then help them rebuild. Is this worse than razing them to the ground and leaving them to die? You make the call.

Are we on top of the economic game right now? Sure kinda. But also the Euro is now worth more than the US dollar... and China is rapidly approaching the level of superpower that the US currently holds... though very similar means (industreal revolution). There's gonna be a power shift within the next 10 years, I think. And it ought to be interesting.

btw if you can just not post anymore for this topic and I'll take that as a victory for me, thanks.

The WMD thing had to do with Korea having nuclear weapons.
I'll answer to the others later, no time right now, but don't worry: i won't 'just not post' ;P

SP, your ignorance about the reasons of those 2 wars show the lack of knowlegde of people from th US about communism. Communism cannot be implemented in a single nation, it needs to be implement in the whole world to be real communism. Until then you will only see socialisms.
If South Korea and Vietnam fell to socialism, more nations would do the same extending it through African, and that is a threat to the capitalism. If US allowed that they would lose a lot of wealth losing their economical colonies and more people would think about the advantages of socialism. Propaganda about the success of improvement of life would reach capitalist nations(improved these underdevelopped nations is not difficult), revolts would appear.
Call it prevention war... and call it maintainment of the economy of US. Because it had a lot of money invested in militar stuff and not using them would ruin them.

I believe SP has the best intentions, but sadly it doesn't work just like that.
One reason is Palloco's, the other is: war costs money.
No would support the war if they didn't see a profit, because an army is strictly dependant on supplies and many other things. Banks, weapon factories, fuel suppliers, etc. have a lot of influence on this.
Now, let's see what happens in Europe during WW2. Nazis are about to conquer it all, and this is a problem for the USA because it would be hard for them to stop them after. It was a menace to the world, not just for what was left of Europe.
They come and defeat the evil nazis. In the process, a lot of people die and a lot of things are destroyed. Both did contribute to it, but who is the invasor? USA - you said it yourself very well - 'raze someone to the ground and then help them rebuild' it is unavoidable sadly, but also economically the key point. So they help rebuild what they have destroyed; wait.. Where do the materials and the money needed to rebuild everything come from? I think i know. And how kind, they will loan it to us so we can repay it when everything is fine again! You see, everything goes back to the USA with interests. And what a surprise, american products are now all over the european market! More fuel for the corporate America!
What i want to point out, again, is: the world is not black and white.
I can mention you all the horrors, mistakes, and everything bad the nazis did, i won't ever deny that.
Just naming them is awkward, because we, living in an 'americanized' society, and America itself, are making history - their 'evil actions' must make up for the war that was done as an excuse.
So if they're the evil ones, Americans are the good guys, defeating them? No. In war, specifically this one (as i already said, and will keep saying), no one is ever right; no conflict of whatever scale between countries has a reason, if not the injustice of men, our thirst for power and money.
This is so sad. Don't you see how the same people keep getting richer and richer while those involved in a war suffer for their benefits?

*sigh*

I guess I'm just disheartened over this whole thing. I'm so torn over stuff right now and I feel a serious lack of power to do anything about it. A big part of who I am is a big part of the punk mindset... and by that I mean the "f*ck authority f*ck conformity" thing. As soon as I became able to really think for myself I began telling all the trends all the styles and all the sociological preassures that want to change me to screw off.

Now I'm watching my country do the same to the world... and I don't understand why. Our leaders have taken my little ideal to an international scale and it's really screwing stuff up. You're right Meandor, it's nigh' impossible to find a "right" or "wrong" in these conflicts. But even for that being the case a lot of people are telling the US that we're wrong.

My underlying reason for starting this thread is pretty simple: I'm scared, and I admit fully my fear is self centered.

I think the US is going to get into another war... probably before we've cleaned up Iraq. And I don't think our current troop supplies are going to cut it. I'm curious to see if the international community here thinks the rest of the world would help in international conflict the US got involved with. Call me crazy but I really don't want to be drafted.

f*ck that came across bad. Very much like "Well... let some peeps from the international community go instead of me". I just can't think of another way to put it. It's not really any better than me wanting to avoid a draft until Bush exhausts our national guard :-/

If I'm not mistaken, no one really had a huge issue with going into Afganistan. Hell... from my perspective I didn't really have much of a problem. A terrorist organization based there flew a few planes and rearranged the NY skyline. The logic to go in and find them made sense to me. Did it make sense to you guys?

I didn't quite follow the whole Iraq thing. I mean... Saddam was a prick and I really don't take issue with him being out of power. It just would have been nice to do so with the support of the international community.

But then again... Bush is used to doing stuff when the majority doesn't want him to.

quote:
ait.. Where do the materials and the money needed to rebuild everything come from? I think i know. And how kind, they will loan it to us so we can repay it when everything is fine again! You see, everything goes back to the USA with interests.


My issue with this statement is the US could have just as easily left Europe to rebuild itself. Yah, the US benifited economically by helping... but it's better to be in debt than to be dead, isn't it?

And please bear in mind... when we talk US economy stuff I'm strait up pissed with Bush. He's increased our national debt more than every other previous president combined, all the while giving a tax cut to the rich. I know this seems kinda off key, but I'm just trying to say the Bush administration if f*cking us too.

Yeah, i'm quite disheartened about it all too. The only alternative to war is diplomacy, but with everyone caring for his own interests, it'll never work.
Btw, i know what Bush is doing to your economy. That kind of info is not rare to find around, being it so evident, even if it is about your own internal politics. His election doesn't change absolutely anything for us.

quote:Originally posted by MeandorHAHAH LIKE THE USA WOULD ATTACK SOMEONE WITHOUT BEING DIRECTLY MENACED / BENEFIT IN SOME WAY FROM IT*
IT TRULY IS THE LAND OF THE GOOD AND THE BRAVE
* not just economically
Also, why the [IMAGE] should be the USA allowed to have nuclear weapons (or WMDs)? No one should. That's indeed impossible, but not a reason for the USA to have them to keep at bay the 'evil asians that plot taking over the world'. The only reason i don't feel menaced is that right now, USA is dependant on Europe and the diplomatic relations are deep.
Stop thinking like they want you to people, we're not all living in America.
for Americans: keep on thinking like they want you to, you're on the good way to conquer the world, at least economically.


The main reason USA has nuclear weapons is because we developed them first and basically we figure if some country hiding nuclear bombs wants to nuke the [:-censored] out of us using ICBM then we are [IMAGE]ed. Russia has nukes, I believe China has nukes and long with a few other countries. Thousands of nuclear bombs are circulating on the black market now and the main reason USA is trying to stop korea is because we don't want another damn histerical country with their finger on the trigger.

Yeah USA's politics is a bunch of fat albino blading men with big pockets that they want to keep stuffing.

Also America didn't want to have jack [:-censored] to do with WWII because we wanted to keep neutrality. However when japan bombed pearl harbor the [:-censored] hit the fan and we figured if those pricks in the pacific (referring to back then not now) wanted to piss us off and try to become a super military power then we might as well end their attempts now and while we are at it finish off the Germans too.

Yeah American policies suck. Yeah the whole world hates us because we like to know what the hell is going on. Yeah we are currently the largest economical power. Yeah we have nuclear weapons. Yeah the UN can't do [:-censored] because they think more politically then morally. Yeah China is shifting to become the greatest economical power. Yeah the main economical strength in the world is currently places like China and Japan where labor is cheap and efficient.

But you know what? There is nothing you can do about it because everyone has a cramping finger over the button and I think the world would be a better place without all these politics.

No countries no ethnicities just everyone an Earthian. But you know what? That will never happen because everyone are ignorant fools as you have prooved Meandor and Social Poison.

I'm just kinda curious, how is it you guys end up so well educated on the crap that's going on here when you live half the world away? I mean, do the main Italian news shows have a little segment called, "Let's watch America go to sh*t!" or what?

I just feel kinda ackward when I explain something domestic and everyone's already like "We know." :P . Or is it more just because the US is the big superpower and it kinda becomes common knowledge when stuff happens?

Wait... proved by being an example of ignorant fools or proved by debating and coming to the conclusion about ignorant fools?

*raises hand* I need a ruling on that one, judge!

---

Well at any rate, you've gotten me to calm down some, Meandor. Thanks.

about the info, no.. we don't have a particular source for that. Most italians don't know about it at all, and the mass medias are just bull[:-censored].
I'm an average italian, but i had the luck of my parents buying me a pc and letting me go on the internet when i was younger. I learnt english with it and without it i would be an ignorant idiot.
If you want to go read my posts from 2 years ago, when i joined (i was 13), you'll realize :P

It's not just you it's for the most part all of mankind. Only mankind can create an almost infinite source of energy like nuclear energy and create a weapon that everyone fears that can destroy Earth. Only mankind will continue to take and take from Earth and just piss where we reap. People will constantly listen to propaganda and buy into it. Look at all of Germany during WWII. Look at all countries now. They all consider themselves to be great places to live and yet they are all [:-censored]holes.

America with it's insane amount of crime and abuse of drugs/alcohol all countries got major problems that they cover up with lies. The country is led by the noses by people who just want to fill the lining of their pockets and are ignorant enough to not allow electric cars or hydrogen cars to become popular because they can make a profit due to the high taxes on gasoline even though it's kicking the [:-censored] out of the ozone layer potentially killing people.

Then you got the lower people which is basically everyone else outside of the little ring of "Inside people" of the scheme. They believe the lies that are told and never think twice because the government is here to help us.

You got the greenpeace rejects who assume everyone loves everything but that is complete bullcrap.

In retrospec no one is noble in today's era. They all want power. If you say you would rather donate $2000 to a homeless person than buy the best new plasma tv or computer then your full of [:-censored]. People are a virus in the world. We are here to live consuming as much as we can then producing as much offspring as we want recklessly while trying to obtain more power than someone else. Once Earth is dead we are going to move to Mars. WE ARE ALREADY MAKING PREPARATIONS TO COLONIZE MARS! Consuming as much resources as we do now in 70 years there will be such a high population that it is completely unobtainable which is why we need to go to war whether it be nuclear or not to keep civilization at bay.

P.S. I ramble so good luck clarifying those thoughts

P.S.S. Social Poison I consider someone who can't spell their native language to be pretty high on my list of idiots. Them and people who would rather live blissfully stupid instead of trying to learn something to make more sense of their useless lives.

"P.S.S. Social Poison I consider someone who can't spell their native language to be pretty high on my list of idiots."

And I simply consider you idiot, you cant either spell your native language correctly by reading your posts.


"We are here to live consuming as much as we can "
That is just you and a bunch of idiots.

Lol. Finland could send some "moral support" :P