The farthest land (yet)

1997
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2004
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14.I.2005
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What planet that thing go around again? Saturn or Jupiter?

saturn.
i think its really amazing that the spaceship has made it that far.
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Yep, amazing pictures...

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/index.html , if you want a little explanation with the pictures.

images of the descent on Titan:

CLICK HERE

Very interesting...the topic of the geology of other planets is something I've thought about from time to time. With the new discoveries on Titan one can only imagine what awaits us on other worlds in temperature and pressure conditions different from our own. Did you know there are seven kinds of ice in our universe? We only see the the first kind (Ice-1) on our planet due to the pressures we experience, but scientists have hypothesised about the conditions of different planets, and simulating this in the lab have come up with seven different kinds of ice. Why are they different? Well, that's a bit longer explaination...if anyone wants it I'd be happy to ramble on longer. Keep the pics coming Aquarius, it's good to see other people on here with an interest in the exploration of our universe.

I'd like to hear more about the different kinds of ice...in fact, that reminds me of a book I once read called Cat's Cradle
by Kurt Vonnegut (Good read *gives a thumb up*).

Ahh...much better aquarius!

Glad to hear of your interest..here goes.

Ice, believe it or not, is a mineral. It's 1) inorganic, 2) highly ordered on an atomic level, 3) a naturally occuring 4) solid, and 5) consists of a definate (but not fixed) chemical composition. As with the formation of any mineral, both on our home planet and out in the universe, the temperature and pressure conditions under which the mineral forms helps to dictate the arrangement of the atoms inside the mineral itself. It's actually a pretty simple concept...change the initial conditions under which a mineral forms and you either fail in forming the mineral, you form the mineral, or you form something different on the subatomic scale. In the case of the seven different kinds of ice, the crystal structure which forms ice crystals is shifted or changed on a tiny scale (in the range of angstroms. 10000000000 angstroms = 1 meter). Needless to say, this shift is very very small, but it changes the crystalline structure of the mineral that forms and ultimately dictates the shape that mineral takes. So, as we move throughout the universe and experience different ranges of temperatures and pressures (emphasis on the latter, although temperature is important as well) we experience conditions that arrange the hydrogen and oxygen molecules slightly differently than here on Earth. In the cases of more complex minerals changes in temp. and pressure have different effects due to the additional molecules...ice is a very simple mineral so its building blocks, so to speak, can be moved and changed without a whole lot of trouble. But with more complex minerals (such as kaolinite (Al2Si2O5(OH)4) or actinolite (Ca2(Mg, Fe)5Si8O22(OH)2)) changing the temperature or pressure results in a new mineral because the molecules cannot be moved/shifted so easily, and at times are replaced by different molecules by the change in temperature. Of course, that all boils down to the sizes of the molecules themselves, and those molecules that better fit the structure of the mineral will be more likely to be held within that structure instead of being pushed out with a change in the initial conditions.

Edit: Things such as pH and Eh also effect what minerals form, but that would take a whole separate little lecture. ^_^

Isn't geology fun?

this is going to be soo cool, soomn we wil be friends with titans, and we will be playing soldat with them, and they will be nice to us!!
i think this is so exciting, and i thin that i will look at the pictures, and i hope that we find some alines, so that the voyage and wait not have been pointless.

quote:Originally posted by The GeologistGlad to hear of your interest..here goes.

Ice, believe it or not, is a mineral. It's 1) inorganic, 2) highly ordered on an atomic level, 3) a naturally occuring 4) solid, and 5) consists of a definate (but not fixed) chemical composition. As with the formation of any mineral, both on our home planet and out in the universe, the temperature and pressure conditions under which the mineral forms helps to dictate the arrangement of the atoms inside the mineral itself. It's actually a pretty simple concept...change the initial conditions under which a mineral forms and you either fail in forming the mineral, you form the mineral, or you form something different on the subatomic scale. In the case of the seven different kinds of ice, the crystal structure which forms ice crystals is shifted or changed on a tiny scale (in the range of angstroms. 10000000000 angstroms = 1 meter). Needless to say, this shift is very very small, but it changes the crystalline structure of the mineral that forms and ultimately dictates the shape that mineral takes. So, as we move throughout the universe and experience different ranges of temperatures and pressures (emphasis on the latter, although temperature is important as well) we experience conditions that arrange the hydrogen and oxygen molecules slightly differently than here on Earth. In the cases of more complex minerals changes in temp. and pressure have different effects due to the additional molecules...ice is a very simple mineral so its building blocks, so to speak, can be moved and changed without a whole lot of trouble. But with more complex minerals (such as kaolinite (Al2Si2O5(OH)4) or actinolite (Ca2(Mg, Fe)5Si8O22(OH)2)) changing the temperature or pressure results in a new mineral because the molecules cannot be moved/shifted so easily, and at times are replaced by different molecules by the change in temperature. Of course, that all boils down to the sizes of the molecules themselves, and those molecules that better fit the structure of the mineral will be more likely to be held within that structure instead of being pushed out with a change in the initial conditions.

Edit: Things such as pH and Eh also effect what minerals form, but that would take a whole separate little lecture. ^_^

Isn't geology fun?


Well at least we know you aint bullsh*ttin about being a Geologist.

quote:Originally posted by Melbathis is going to be soo cool, soomn we wil be friends with titans, and we will be playing soldat with them, and they will be nice to us!!


What makes you think that they won't be hacking barretards?

So Geo, what's the difference between the different forms that ice takes on specifically? Is it just a change in structure that can barely be noticed, or does it have enourmous effects on the mineral? Is there anything practical about a different form of ice (ie, can it be used in any other means than normal ice)?

Hmm...interesting questions. I'm not sure if I have all the answers you want, but I can take a crack at it.

Question #1 - What's the difference between the types of ice seen? Also, is there anything practical about differnet forms of ice?
- As far as I know, the only real difference between these kinds of ice is in the structure. The only real differences, aside from structure, come in the ranges of temperature and pressure in which we find these forms of ice. These ranges lend themselves to the formation of one kind of ice and one kind alone. All these different kinds of ice are polymorphs of each other (from the Greek meaning "many forms"). Basically, it just means the same chemical constituants are arranged in different ways, and each different way is a new polymorph. So when you say that it's a change in the structure that can barely be noticed you are pretty much correct. It's near impossible to tell one mineral from its polymorph (in most cases) by just using your eyes...you need tools like electron microscopes and insturments that will allow you to look at things beying the microscopic level. When speaking of ice, I'm honestly not sure if there would be anything practical about a different form of ice...as far as I know it's still just ice, except that different forms cannot exist on our Earth because they are unstable within the temp. and pressure ranges seen on our planet.

Question #2- Does this have enourmous effects on the mineral?
- Ice may not show any tremendous effects...I havn't done a lot of research or anything, just heard a few lectures and done some reading on the subject. But there are other minerals that show a massive change when you move between polymorphs. Take the minerals diamond and graphite...they're both made of carbon atoms. A diamond has a hardness of 10 on Moh's scale of hardness (a scale of 1-10 used to rate a minerals resistance to scratching) and an isometric crystal structure. Graphite, however, has a hardness of 1 on the scale and has a hexagonal crystal structure. While you may not know what the differences in crystal structure mean, it's pretty clear that different polymorphs can be drastically different from one another. The two minerals even have a different specific gravity (similar to weight, but slightly different...it deals with putting the mineral in water, using this thing called a Jolley balance, blah blah blah...it's boring.)

However, from this example you can see that there are times where a certain polymorph is much more practical (or valuble) than another. Due to the rare conditions under which diamonds form, they're very valuble in many industries.

If you'd like I can look through some of my books and find a diagram that demonstrates the ranges of temp. and pressure in which the kinds of ice form.

Well, I believe that it can make the ice highly acidic, based on the pH value of the liquids in its formation, but hell if I know. From my knowledge, pH value lowers the more the atmosphere is 'polluted.' The more toxic chemicals, the less the pH value of rain. At least, that's how it goes on our planet. Still, I'm sure that on different planets the pH value would be much different from 7, the one we know as neutral.

lol... I shouldn't even mess myself in with this. Tis highly interesting, though.

quote:Originally posted by KazukiWell, I believe that it can make the ice highly acidic, based on the pH value of the liquids in its formation, but hell if I know. From my knowledge, pH value rises the more the atmosphere is 'polluted.' The more toxic chemicals, the less the pH value of rain. At least, that's how it goes on our planet. Still, I'm sure that on different planets the pH value would be much different from 7, the one we know as neutral.



This can actually be true, but there are so many more factors involved than just the pollution of a planet. As you know a lower pH means there is more acidic activity, and a higher pH means the activity is more basic (lacking hygroden ions). The formation/weathering of minerals can have a great effect on pH, and the pH already present in an environment can have an effect on the formation/weathering of minerals...the two go hand in hand very closely.

In terms of ice, however, I'm not sure if pH would have much of an effect (assuming there are enough hydrogens present that the pH isn't extremely high)...if hydrogen ions are present, a decrease in pH (a rise in hygrogen ion content) would favor the formation of minerals bearing hydrogen in their structures. And since I'm just guessing that most of the planets out there aren't "polluted" in the common sense of the word, I'd write things off more in favor of the geological/possible hydrological/possible biological processes in place on those planets. Reactions that use up hydrogen and put those atoms into minerals will raise the pH due to the removal of hydrogen, while the weathering of rocks and minerals can add more hydrogen to the system and lower the pH.

However, some of the planets out there may have initial conditions that are very basic. In such conditions pH would indeed be a factor because there might not be enough hydrogens in the system to pair up one hydrogen with two oxygens.

Also, it's kinda important to mention the Eh, which is very similar to pH. The Eh is the tendancy for certain substances to either donate or recieve electrons, and if other planets operate like earth than only certain Eh ranges exist at the surface. So, if you're on the surface you might get a different mineral than say, if you were 20 miles below the surface. But, once again...that's a whole 'nother broad topic. ^_^

Thanks Geo. You don't have to look through your books because you explained it all very well.

quote:Originally posted by Melbathis is going to be soo cool, soomn we wil be friends with titans, and we will be playing soldat with them, and they will be nice to us!!

yea and they better not use ak or minimi the damn aliens.

First off - LOL @ geo's posts :D

ahahah classic

Second - I wonder if they'll recieve much data about the bio conditions of titan. Given its got a nitrogen based atmosphere, it's almost capable of supporting life, or at least primitive orgamisms.

Interesting :)

Sounds of Titan
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEM85Q71Y3E_0.html

The radar one sounds like a racecar at the end..

You thought that too, eh? :P

quote:Originally posted by Aquariusimages of the descent on Titan:

CLICK HERE




What is that? I think they got ripped off. My cellular does better photos, and they have colours too.

Well, the technology is at least 7 years old cause it was a voyage of seven years..

hang on a diddle?

NC posted in this thread, excuse me while i go insane, i didnt know he was "back"

but anyways yeh, this is probably one of the most interesting threads in this forum, good stuff

The Huygens probe had only a few hours to collect all data before its batteries run out. I think the transmission of the hi-res colorfull images would take to long - it would mean less images and less other very important scientific data.

Eh, i hate it when people think i'm serious about absurd things..
I'm not so stupid to compare my cellular to a extraplanetary probe! :P

There was an old racing game that I used to play where you hear the driver's heartbeat just before the flag is waved and you start to go slowly but speed up...I'm almost certain that people on Titan must be playing this game like crazy in order for it to be heard by the probe.