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What should influence changes in new versions?
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - General Discussions
Ok
July 17, 2005, 6:40 am
One of the main problems (according to some beta testers) of 1.2.1 is that they tested the game and found it fun and balanced since they did not test it in a clan war mode, where a team of players work as one for the same goal.

So that means the game was fine for publics, but gave alot of spraying hell to the clan wars.

I think that the game should be easier for publics, since it will attract more players that way.
But in clan wars there must be a way to prevent the game from being so easy.

So who should we care mostly about? alot of posters here are not even clan members, so who should we think about first? should it be the clans? and by that considering clans war and adjusting to that?

I feel that that's the way it should be, its not like the game is going to be SO sucky in publics if u adjust it to clan wars.
It will just be a little harder for new players, that makes absolute sense to me, a player who is not willing to play the game if he doesnt own right away is not someone who will stick with us anyways.

So I say think about clan wars! adjust to that and the rest will follow, even other game modes such as Infiltration will gain from that adjustment, same to TDM.

So what do you think?

karmazon
July 17, 2005, 6:47 am
I think we should care about people with crappy connection. Yes, we want better net code.

Cookie.
July 17, 2005, 6:51 am
quote:Originally posted by karmazonI think we should care about people with crappy connection. Yes, we want better net code.

FliesLikeABrick
July 17, 2005, 7:16 am
when testing this beta, the team made sure to frequently try it out in clan-war format, using teams in properly arranged games.

the net code optimization for people on dialup is always a consideration

Ok
July 17, 2005, 8:37 am
net code is not a change.
Its an improvment, I'm talking about changes, like adding/removing bink/ changing weapons balance, adding/removing weapons etc etc...
Improving the net code is never bad, but there's a reason why michal isn't improving it, its freaking hard! he's only 1 person, give him a break and stick to the subject :)

UltraMagnus
July 17, 2005, 10:04 am
personally i think public servers. and perhaps somone taking notice of whats posted in the suggestions forum

KeFear
July 17, 2005, 10:26 am
Well, imho the beta tester team should be more careful. Last time we got bink and such which led to massive spraying, which is pretty bad for the game. I hope they were a bit more well-thought, so we will get a nice, playable, and not least enjoyable game.

-Claw-
July 17, 2005, 10:39 am
Well, i really think in same way with Ok, so, if MM makes Autos less powerfull/removes bink, which maybe reduces that damn spraywar, not so many packets will be sent, and people on dialups could play clanwars better.. (My clan has one member with dial-up, from his ping i can see how mych tehre is spray =/)

Captain Ben
July 17, 2005, 11:09 am
Spraying is just one of those things that won't go away. Live with it.

Deleted User
July 17, 2005, 11:23 am
your first instinct with an auto is to spray the damn thing until someone dies ( not helped by action movies). so yes captain ben is right. and no changing weapons there fine

Chakra`
July 17, 2005, 12:57 pm
Yeah we've learnt a little from last time. Sorry about that. But it wasn't all our fault! Michal explicitly said he wanted it out there ASAP, giving us little time for tweak-ups on balance.

A bigger problem however, was that such tweak-ups required Michal to re-release a new beta everytime. Quite a bit of effort for the poor bugger.


So with the new 'tool' at our disposal, weapon balance is something that we can actually 'fiddle' with ourselves. We can come to conclusions without hassling Michal, just each other.

Also, we're making the effort to fight clan-war style. At the moment, the autos have been toned down in damage, but we believe still a little too useful in groups. Not sure what we're gonna do about that yet.




AerialAssault
July 17, 2005, 5:37 pm
this goes out to all who are on the beta testing team : please remember, do not forget the way things were in 1.1.5 and 1.2. you must remember you control the power of the barrett while keeping everything else balanced as well.

Aquarius
July 17, 2005, 5:58 pm
Yeah, don't bring the zillions of barretards back to Soldat. I believe in your common sense guys.

Ok
July 17, 2005, 7:25 pm
Aye one of the biggest problems (And I've said it like a 10000 times) is that MM tried to solve the problem of an overpowered weapon by making others stronger, insted of dealing with the problem itself (back then barret).

Just imagin what a great version we would have if that attitude of toning down weapons instead of upgrading others would have been the way MM dealt with it.

FliesLikeABrick
July 17, 2005, 8:02 pm
quote:Originally posted by OkAye one of the biggest problems (And I've said it like a 10000 times) is that MM tried to solve the problem of an overpowered weapon by making others stronger, insted of dealing with the problem itself (back then barret).

Just imagin what a great version we would have if that attitude of toning down weapons instead of upgrading others would have been the way MM dealt with it.




you seem so sure that that is what he does, interesting

GAMEOVER
July 17, 2005, 8:51 pm
I dont think the autos are over powered at all and I dont even use them, I actually think the power of all weapons in the current version is perfect weaker and stronger weapons get made up in reload time. One thing id really like to see is finally some way of registering your nick so nobody can use it but the registered member of that nick, that should be really important. Another thing id like to see is when you switch to secondary weapons your primary weapon will reload (at the same speed or even a little slower) while its not in use. A way to rid the barret campers that everyone seems to hate could be to make it so if you move the barret will reload a little bit faster but if you stay still in one place it will reload slow like it does now.

solohan50
July 17, 2005, 9:08 pm
i tend to agree that auto's aren't overpowered. i think what you guys seem to be saying is that autos are overpowered when there's a whole clan using them, but c'mon, what do you expect when 3 guys with fully automatics all shoot at you? only James Bond can go up against those odds, with a socom no less, and still come out of it alive :-P.

-Claw-
July 17, 2005, 9:17 pm
Well, How many of you have a REAL experience from being sprayed, e.g. Clanwars..?

I can say that i have an experience being sprayed, and i dont mean just 3 autos with word "spray", i mean Blindshooting all the time, you can kill enemy before you even see it.. :0
And that is a real problem, because spraywars get boring after 2-3minutes.. If you are really gonna say: "deal with it" which means "Suffer in any clanwar you play, get bored and quit Soldat".

GAMEOVER
July 17, 2005, 9:47 pm
Well then make it so the bullets will still go as far they do for visual effects but they dont start to do damage until that person is in your view.

Ok
July 18, 2005, 12:05 am
quote:Originally posted by FliesLikeABrickquote:Originally posted by OkAye one of the biggest problems (And I've said it like a 10000 times) is that MM tried to solve the problem of an overpowered weapon by making others stronger, insted of dealing with the problem itself (back then barret).

Just imagin what a great version we would have if that attitude of toning down weapons instead of upgrading others would have been the way MM dealt with it.



you seem so sure that that is what he does, interesting


ERm, YEA?!
Liek is there any doubt autos became stronger because ppl whined about barret?

Is there any doubt bink came to Soldat mainly to DEAL with barret?
Is there any doubt weapons only became stronger in each version?
Even barret is easier then it was in 1.1.5 for example.

Enlight me with some new fact I don't know about changes in the version O.o

VodkaZombie
July 18, 2005, 3:06 am
quote:Originally posted by Okquote:Originally posted by FliesLikeABrickquote:Originally posted by OkAye one of the biggest problems (And I've said it like a 10000 times) is that MM tried to solve the problem of an overpowered weapon by making others stronger, insted of dealing with the problem itself (back then barret).

Just imagin what a great version we would have if that attitude of toning down weapons instead of upgrading others would have been the way MM dealt with it.



you seem so sure that that is what he does, interesting


ERm, YEA?!
Liek is there any doubt autos became stronger because ppl whined about barret?

Is there any doubt bink came to Soldat mainly to DEAL with barret?
Is there any doubt weapons only became stronger in each version?
Even barret is easier then it was in 1.1.5 for example.

Enlight me with some new fact I don't know about changes in the version O.o


You dont have to get at him so hard. MM intentions werent solely to enhance the power of auto's he was just trying to experiment and see how things would be that way, why would MM make things worse for us? Think about it.

Deleted User
July 18, 2005, 5:48 am
Clan wars were definetly a lot more fun before 1.2.1. I'm glad you're trying to find some solution to this problem.

Chakra`
July 18, 2005, 1:57 pm
On a final note, please remember that the beta team 'do' discuss and put forward their suggestions about weapon balance to Michal.

However, it is ultimately up to him.
He does say 'no' to things.
He ain't our whipping horse.
This is his game.
(so blame him when it goes wrong)

Aquarius
July 18, 2005, 2:13 pm
It is a "secret of Polichinelle" that before the release of 1.2.0 Barret was nerfed in a beta but some (barretarded) betatesters convinced Michal that he should revert the changes. So you are not so innocent...

Ok
July 18, 2005, 2:31 pm
Yep, what really amazes me is the lack of basic sense.
Barret was nerfed by bink, so barretards asked bink to effect (almost) all the other weapons.
Now how does it help the barret user if deagles are binked? other then him feeling he's not the only one screwed.

And I wasn't hard on MM , I was just stating a fact that he did a mistake by making weapons stronger instead of weaker (where it was needed).

Deleted User
July 18, 2005, 2:53 pm
The lack of basic sense?

You're being quite selfish, especially since Michal has put a lot of hard work into providing an excellent and free service for you to enjoy.

I'm not saying that you can't have an opinion, but I'd like to see you try and appease an entire community of players, each with their own wants and needs.

Chakra`
July 18, 2005, 3:28 pm
quote:Originally posted by AquariusIt is a "secret of Polichinelle" that before the release of 1.2.0 Barret was nerfed in a beta but some (barretarded) betatesters convinced Michal that he should revert the changes. So you are not so innocent...


Alas, you speak the truth in that we have a part to play, but the weight of results is 50/50. The story is as so...



Basically, Michal shocked us all during the first few betas of 1.2.0 by nerfing the barret.

It was nerfed in a way that, quite simply, the aim was screwed whenever you were moving or flying. The only way to get a decent aim was to crouch and stay still. Simple as that.

Unfortunately, there was quite a few barretards within the beta team. One of which was Cbble, who lead the arguement for pro-barret. Superkill and a few others backed him up and, basically, Michal had to take a side.

After 26 pages in the barret thread (i kid you not) in the beta forums, Michal removed the nerf and 1.2.0 became what it was.



...come 1.2.1 beta, Michal had done some thinking. He needed a new way to address the barret. So he invented Bink. Again, we were stunned and delighted.

And of course, the barret-friendly beta testers complained, but this time were overwhelmed by a majority of people saying "NO, NOT AGAIN".
1.2.1 was also hurried towards the end with a few balance issues unresolved due to our dear boy Michal having a life, and claiming "I want to get it out there [asap]". I remember that his last pre-release beta was only done a day or two before release, into which he'd tweaked a few bits of weaponry. I myself never had much of a chance to test it.


So indeed, beta testers had a part in the Soldat you know today. But mikey did his work too. That's the best I can remember it happening anyhow. God knows my memory is unreliable.

I assure you though...we're really trying to figure out a decent balance.


that fuking sniper
July 18, 2005, 7:02 pm
As has been said before, there will always be complaints. People either worry about the Barret coming back to overpower everything again and others worry about "spray weapons" getting even stronger while others still despise the last group, which includes Ruger and DE's. To put it simply: you can't go right, there. I liked the old set ups because that's how I started playing the game, plain and simple. Anything can be "cheap", that depends on people's preception. I think the only factor that should affect new versions is Michal's whim. He made this game, he patches it, and he thought up the old set up which I liked. I'd play whatever he creates, and if I don't like it, will I whine and moan? No, I'll find another game to play.

Mielos
July 18, 2005, 9:16 pm
If everyone thinks like you "that fuking sniper", there wouldn't be as many people left playing soldat as there are now.

To me balance is the most important for a multiplayer game ( I still haven't found any fps games with a perfect balance ) , iv'e always hated one shot death weapons in games , especially barret as it used to be because you just don't get the chance to fire back unless you have barret yourself and fire first , i don't see no way to fit it in soldat as a one shot death weapon. With bink effect I think we just encourage the "barrettards" to camp , altough you need a lot of patience to keep camping like that , it's very irritated to get killed that way . the auto spraying problem ... well gues that is mainly caused by the fact soldat is a 2d game and the infinite clips, I think limithing that is the best solution. Minigun boosting should be fixed to imo,

Ok
July 18, 2005, 10:35 pm
I totaly disagree with you there TFS, maybe you can't be objective about it, but I had no doubt that 1.2 was a nice version.
EVen though I did my main playing and most of my fun in 1.1.5.
There are ppl in the world who are able to be objective, we're not all just looking for the stuff we got used to.
Sometimes we're looking for stuff we saw in the past since we realize its better (yes that's another possibility you know..).
Ppl keep answering me by saying I'm just selfish, well how can I be selfish when I love m79 the most and I still say it should be binked, its so easy to just critisize the you see fit.
I'm able to be objective and think about the game itself unlike the barret users of the past who actualy didn't see the barret was overpowered, not tell me that's not selfish!!
NEVER ! and I SAY NEVER! had the community been whining SO much, sure ppl whined about barret.
And I didn't like it myself, being the m79 player that I was, but I didn't complain since I was objective about it and found other ways to deal with the barret players.
Ever since 1.2.1 came out I've been whining about the same weapons I've been using for a long time in 1.2
Styre, Minimie! both are weapons I imbraced in 1.2 since I found them usefull, as the matter of fact I did a little bit of spraying with minimie in maps like voland back in 1.2!
Wasn't the spray fest it is today but still I did a little bit of spraying (ask MN players how I used to stop 2 players down with that weapon)
But today with the bink it just feels too cheap to do that, just like camping, my enemie has too little of a chance.

The only thing I look for in Soldat is a fair challange! I don't want to game to be too easy, I want it to be hard in general and I want to fight enemies who can't overpower me with some cheap methods of playing.

Spraying is cheap, camping is cheap, there's a really specific defenition to something that ppl complain about, if a player can make the game easier for him while harder for you without using skills and brains as tools then the game is NOT ok.
All players should have options of ways of playing,its not right when a team who is weaker then you can force you to spray just to counter them... its not right when a team can ruin the game for you if they really wants to..

EVery weapon must have a weakness to some other weapons, that's the way of balance, that's the way of veriety! which made this game fun in the first place VERIETY!

I have like 11 demos I collected so far with only "pro" players in them, gathers, cws etc etc..
ALL of them invlove 70-80% autos, or to be exact minimie/AK.
Those ratings did not fit the "pro's" of 1.2/1.1.5..

And I'll end it from a quote, beeing said by Demonic if I'm not mistaken while he broadcasted the Soldat European Cup final MATCH betwin sweden and finland:
"no one cares about sportsmanship in this game! they just want to win this one, both teams are spraying all over"


Chakra`
July 18, 2005, 11:23 pm
Michal Marcinkowski says to tell you:

"We're keeping the balance the same as 1.2.1, just because I love pissing Ok off. :)"








(no not really)

that fuking sniper
July 18, 2005, 11:52 pm
I'm being perfectly objective, OK. I can't see how I'm not. The point of my post was a basically a nice way to say "all whiners shut the f*ck up" because either way it goes, someone's going to be dissatisfied. The arguement on where the majority's preferences lie is a hollow one, because they're the ones moaning about every single aspect of this game, creating disparaging nicknames for these aspects: Spraying, nade spamming, barretarding, camping, spawncamping, whatever else pops up in your mind. If one would have the majority's rule, one would have brainwash, another thing I oppose. This is why, in this particular case, I promote dictatorship. Michal wants the best for everyone and to perfect his game, obviously, but input has to be given, thats why we have the beta test, right? But who's to say who's objective and who isn't within the beta testing team itself?

To sum it up, once again: Whatever Michal dicides to include in 1.2.1, people will STILL (Please refrain from swearing) about it, majority or no majority. So there is NO ultimate balance that would be achieved, this is relative. Whatever you like, the people around you and your suceptibility to external stimuli determines what your opinions on anything, including weapon balance, are.

So, how am I not being completely objective? I quit the beta testing team for the same reason and for seeing myself being a hypocrite. If Michal listened to no-one but himself, everyone would actually comprehend for once that this is one person's point of view of how his own game should be, not how it should be as a universal rule. Need I explain something more?

Ok
July 19, 2005, 12:18 am
You're missing a very important point, a point that obviously michals understand but you don't.
This creation of his is no longer "his"..
True he made it, true he's working his ass of to program it.
But what about community? who made this game popular? what about the league makers? the map makers? the accesories made by other programers the general public who plays and distributes the game!
The community has a right to influence the game, and mainly because its a part of it and a part of its fame just as michal is.
But lets assume that's wrong, lets assume we have no right to decide what will become of this game.
There's another factor you forgot, Michal is not playing cw's.. he hardly plays any team matches, unless "god is one of us" and one day we'll find out that Gigen is actually michal! (JOKING! RELAX!)
I don't know what makes you think humans are uncapable of thinking beyong their little existance or their own whims, but if you'll look at our past, we've been doing it for liek EVER!
I'm pretty sure soldat is no diffrenent ;)
There are enough beta testers who balance each other..
Take chakra for example he will always counter barret no matter what, and take othe barret users such as remedy they will always support their barret no matter what, they balance each other and eventualy its michal's job to take all the factors, gather as much information as he can and calculate it using his own vision and basic sense.

So I'm saying to u TFS in a "nice way" :)
Don't support dictatorship, history had shown it doesnt work.
Michal would like to keep Soldat popular, and if he will imbrace your way of thinking, it will probably start dieing.

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 1:07 am
..wheres Jerry Springer for a 'Final Thoughts' when you need him.


Still, you're both right.

People will always find something to complain about. There'll very likely be nothing in life that will be fully acceptable to everyone.

On the flip side, I like to believe a generally acceptable balance can be achieved. We've gone from two extremes of weapon balance; first 1-shot dominance, now auto dominance. This time round, if we and Michal get our arses in gear, we may find an acceptable inbetween having learnt from past mistakes.

The beta team is also remarkably smaller this time round. Alot of which whom involved in weapon balance discussions appear to be very fair minded and experienced. It'd be too wishful to say we'll hit 'jackpot' this time, but I think we're closer.

that fuking sniper
July 19, 2005, 1:27 am
OK, I don't think beyond my own whims, how can I? Can't blame me for having a different view than anyone else does, I said "screw the community" a long time ago :p

quote:Originally posted by Ok
There's another factor you forgot, Michal is not playing cw's.. he hardly plays any team matches, unless "god is one of us" and one day we'll find out that Gigen is actually michal! (JOKING! RELAX!)


As for the above: I've already adressed the matter in my previous post: "Michal wants the best for everyone and to perfect his game, obviously, but input has to be given, thats why we have the beta test, right? But who's to say who's objective and who isn't within the beta testing team itself?".

The reason I think Michal is the one and only person who should determine all that stuff in 1.2.1 is because I simply might not agree with whoever the beta testing team consists of. I agree with whatever Michal does because I have faith in him and his being objective (for the most part, or at least, more than most of us) about weapon balance and gameplay. Why do I think Michal is more objective than anyone else? I don't know, but I do, and this is my opinion. I disagree about the fact that this game belongs to the community. They've built around it, but it isn't theirs.

Anyways, this arguement is worthless in the end, because it's only a clash of perspectives. To win a relative arguement would count for brainwash, so forgive me for wasting both our times. All I meant to do in my first post is to set an example of how to be complacent and actually appriciate the hard work that's been put into the game. Like I said before, if I won't like the new version, I wouldn't be a jackass and get on Michal's nerves, I'd just stop playing.

Mielos
July 19, 2005, 3:07 am
quote:People will always find something to complain about.
Yup and that's how we try improve things, Michal can't always now what need improvement if we don't help

quote:I disagree about the fact that this game belongs to the community. They've built around it, but it isn't theirs
I don't think someone here ever said that , but the community truly is a part of the game , it encourages Michal to keep working on soldat , and it also makes soldat popular.

And I think by discussing how to improve the game and making the community grow by making mods etc , is a way to show our appreciation for the work Wichal has done.

Ok
July 19, 2005, 4:07 am
I'll tell you waht TFS, I have a big problem with what you're saying.
First of all you're saying we need to appriciate his hard work, that we owe him more then he to us.
But then you're saying "if the game changes to your dislike, just shut up and stop playing it"
Is that a way to repay michal for his hard work?
He's a human being, he can make mistakes, who's more fit to say how can u better the game then the ones who played it before?

So you're basicly saying we should appriciate his hard work by shuting up and quiting the game.

I can't see the sense in that, for me the fact that I still play the game, even though it gotten worst is a pure show of faith in michal! a pure support from me and the likes of me in him!
We stuck around even though he messed up! we stuck around. dealt with all the "lamers" of soldat.
We whined and got flamed for it! but eventualy we did it so the game will be better, better for us? well that's another point, if we liked it before, if we liked it when it was not so popular and the community wasn't so big.
Doesnt that mean we're more fit to decide what is "better" ?
Sure is more then any players who hasn't seen how the game was before.

The game as it is now also influenced the community! there is no doubt in my mind that the community got even wrost just because of the weapons balance.

I say I don't only appriciate Michal and his efforts! I also do something in return!
I have faith in him, ALOT but he need input and information, and TFS if u left the beta testing group because you think its "(Please refrain from swearing)e" then you aint really supporting anything.
You should have stuck there and make sure the (Please refrain from swearing)e has less influence.

QUITING THE GAME DUE TO CHANGES IN SOLDAT= DISRESPECTING MICHAL's efforts.

that fuking sniper
July 19, 2005, 4:29 am
How would me stopping to play the game due to gameplay issues offend Michal? Look at it from a giver/taker point of view: If you ask someone a question and expect them to be honest, would you be offended if they gave you an answer you were not hoping to recieve? Same situation.

Ok
July 19, 2005, 5:16 am
Actualy if you look at it this way, then we're doing the right thing by whining, even though Michal did not come to us and asked "So what do you think about my new version?"
He would though, if he will notice a mass of players quiting the game.

MOFO NOFO
July 19, 2005, 7:46 am
quote:Originally posted by Cookie.quote:Originally posted by karmazonI think we should care about people with crappy connection. Yes, we want better net code.



also, weve been talking about auto's, deagles, barret and stuff... but what about the spas?, its REALLY underpowered, and that reload bug is annoying, and rarely helps when trying to shoot down.


... TFS, you keep saying 1.2.1... 1.2.2 is the next version silly :p

DeMonIc
July 19, 2005, 10:01 am
Ah, weapon balance and the new version. What a delicate combination for a topic.

At the moment balance is the most tender part of Soldat: I know a lot of players who only want a new version so it brings a new, (and from their perspective) better balance. The stress on Michal is immense: he 'has' to please thousands of players out there, and he has a beta testing crew because he doesn't actively play his own game in teams, so he needs some people who represent the needs of the masses. This lightens the weight on big M's shoulders, since if something gets messed up, people can blame the beta testers, not MM himself. I guess it's just the feedback of getting your hands on the new version before anyone else: and I think it's right this way. The weapon balance is our responsibility now, but we have to learn out of our mistakes, since others won't do them for us. That's why 1.2.1 was auto dominated, and that's why (hopefully) 1.2.2 will have some sort of Golden Balance. Or I might be mistaken and once again we forgot something that will only show it's cheapness a month or two after the new version comes out.

Another option would be an open-beta test: however having to play with a bug filled game for months is even worse than playing with a bad balance (that could be eased with weapon modding). Open beta tests would likely cause havoc and chaos both on IRC and the forums: not to mention the immense amount of whining that will come from those who have themselfes chained to their theories.

Deleted User
July 19, 2005, 11:09 am
Let me just say this.

Your arguements are a waste of time. The new version will come and you'll all be happy and wonder why you ever argued.

/endofstory

MOFO NOFO
July 19, 2005, 11:38 am
i still think spas is greatly underpowered at even the smallest of distances... only good close, but with all the spraying going on, theres no chance.

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 2:01 pm
You should've been in U13 24/7 last night then. I was ripping the poor (Please refrain from swearing)s apart with spas! ctf_run too.


I wouldn't mind seeing that reload 'thing' gone though. That is annoying.

Ok
July 19, 2005, 5:40 pm
Why do you turn it into a weapons balance topic :I wanted your opinions about what you think should influence that changes.
Team games, or publics!
Both have different needs!
Deal with that and stop talking about the weapons balance.
Talk about who needs to be consdired most when changes needed to take place.

UltraMagnus
July 19, 2005, 9:10 pm
IMO there are alot more people who play publics than clan/private games.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

The @venger
July 19, 2005, 9:52 pm
shut up, ok!
you started a weapon balance team in disguise as something else, also, since i am a user of occationally all the weapons (except from minigun and deagles) i think the weapon balance to be flawless.

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 9:55 pm
Your banana's flat.

Happy Camper
July 19, 2005, 10:28 pm
He should lean it tword the hardcore players (that sounds geeky), as we are the ones giving him money and registering for the most part.

Mielos
July 20, 2005, 1:19 am
Lean it to cw's , because if it's balanced in cw's it's probably also balanced in pubs

Ok
July 20, 2005, 1:27 pm
quote:Originally posted by MielosLean it to cw's , because if it's balanced in cw's it's probably also balanced in pubs


Bingo my point exactly!