Well, after seeing so many stupid remarks from so many kids in here.
Who rely on nothing more then rumors and amongs the "well informed" prehapes even some news flashes.

Watch Pollywood! and how they make what you're watching at home.

http://seconddraft.org/streaming/pallywood.wmv

Also, notice the french media.. add this to the fact I already know from my friend who's in there, that the french news men actualy hand the kids rocks and pay them to throw it at the soldiers.
And no wonder I'm not fond of those perfume shower bastads.. (OMG! a stereotype!!!)

hahahhaha what the hell are you talking about man..I seriously have no [CENSORED]ing clue what you're trying to say. hahaha funny topic though. hahahahaha.

I COMPLETELY AGREE!

He's talking about how the media lies about what's going on in Israel.

Oh. I thought he was talking about the French.

AMMAGOD PRAWN

oh.. oops, guess who forgot to add a link :S
Its added now.

gj mister vi...whatever your name is ^_^
for knowing a bit more then the average monkeys around here.

What? You didn't add anything. =|

Ah, now you added it. Alright. I'll check it out in the morning. Before the addition of this link, we couldn't absorb anything from the last part of your post. It all just seemed like a bunch of random topics thrown together for no reason. The only logical part was the first one.

Yea sorry about that, I'm a bit dizzy, lost alot of fluid today before coming back home... ;)

"Why do I keep getting mail addressed to 'Willy Wonka'? What the hell? Does that have anything to do with the French? God, those loathsome French." ~ Oscar Wilde

When did the media tell the truth to begin with?

well that clip have showed nothing new to us israelies. i know the french won't have anything wise to say about it, so i wish i'd hear a comment from a "peace now" member (israeli left-wing organization) or any other left-wing extremist.

lol @ those apes who waved the swastika flag xDDDDDDDDD

What? But I thought only kids played soldat? your telling me older grown up men do to? o.o Whoa..

Or the only kids that you can compare to are immature and self-centered.

Que? What's going on in Israel then? I haven't heard anything about that.

Well according to a Danish guy named Fragbait , we have a Civil war here...
According to other sources(*caugh* french *caugh*), Israel is butchering and terrorising the palastinians..

According to Israelis , there's a very complicated situation that involves more then 2 sides (Trying to be objective for your sake here)

You're invited to choose :) I wouldn't listen to the first one though, its based on Soldat...
The second one is based on what the movie is showing you.
The last one, is based on an expirience of living in the middle of this [CENSORED].

And according to me, Israel is not the only place in the world, and is not the only thing happening in the news.

[CENSORED], it's not anythign in the news here in america. lols.

quote:Originally posted by peemonkeyPRAWN

shrimp?
[/sarcasm]

quote:Originally posted by frogboyAnd according to me, Israel is not the only place in the world, and is not the only thing happening in the news.

Won't load.

I can't believe I wasted 20 minutes of my life watching this vile zionist propaganda.

Zionist propoganda? Definitely. But it's absolutely true.

I once saw a teenage palestinian girl on the front page of my newspaper being shot at by Israeli troops. I knew she was Palestinian and was being shot at by the Israelis because the caption said so. Truth is, I knew that girl. She was a family friend from California who was being attacked by the Palestinians when the Israelis risked their lives to run out and save her.

This [CENSORED] happens all the time. Normally, you'll see a picture of Israelis pointing their guns at little Palestinian kids who only have rocks. What you don't see is the Palestinian men firing at the Israelis (who aren't shooting very much for fear of hitting children) while they're using children as bullet shields.

Other times you'll see Israelis firing at Palestinian men with slings and wonder why the Israelis are using such force against people who are only armed with rocks. They get a lot of criticism for this. But what the general public either doesn't realize or is unwilling to believe is that any good sized rock flung from a sling has a very good chance of killing a man if it hits him in the head or the chest. That rock will pulverize bone. But of course, it's just a rock...

If you can't take a wimpy little 5-pound rock full-force on the noggin you don't deserve to be called a soldier.

you idiot.
even goddamn arnold schwartzneger won't be able to operate correctly after being hit in the face with a "wimpy 5 pound rock". but nevermind the face, what about a knee? an elbow? how are you supposed to run or hold your weapon correctly after a wimpy 2.5 kilo rock have smashed your knee or elbow ?
and its not like a soldier can spray anyone who throws a rock at him.

presuming you're american, i'd like to hear your opinion after your first month in the army, and not while you're a spoiled little [CENSORED]got who thinks the army is just CS with better graphics.

and if you're not american, mind saying where you are from?

@frogboy - [CENSORED] off?
what exactly did you contribute by saying israel is not the only place in the world?
since when it's wrong to start a disscusion (or bring up the subject) about something that not EVERYONE take interest in?

@michal - mind expanding, perhaps?
how on earth can this be propoganda, if this is merely a clip showing how biased (most of) the media is, and proving how they are staging battle zones?
seriously just give me a reason of why is this propoganda, i'm really curious.

..and so the two remaining intelligent israeli soldat players attempt to undo years of discreet media brainwashing on the relatively uneducated and uninterested modern generation by themselves.

will they succeed?

can Ok keep his calm when replying to a collection of local idiots and trolls?

will Superkill ever find his bart simpson socks?


..stay tuned..

quote:@michal - mind expanding, perhaps?
how on earth can this be propoganda, if this is merely a clip showing how biased (most of) the media is, and proving how they are staging battle zones?
seriously just give me a reason of why is this propoganda, i'm really curious.
It's a piece directed at Americans. It tries to convince them that all Palestinian claims are illegitimate by showing some isolated incidents. Yes, there could very well be staged scenes, but I'd think it's pretty hard to film a real massacre. And there are plenty more scenes that are real.
This story is just to convince American sheep that their daily $15 million contrubution to Israel is going to somewhere other than the genocide of Palestinians.

(when revealing lies is being called propoganda, you know something's not right)
hahah yea i understand...
... that you're yet another brainwashed fool.


yaya, there was a time when i'd wage forum fights with ignorants like you. that time is far behind, and honestly, right now i cant care less about what some outcasts at the other side of the planet, that think they know some shiz cause they've read some material. ;P

anyway, i'm off getting me an arab baby.. long time since i've eaten those. cya.

quote:Originally posted by Chakra`..and so the two remaining intelligent israeli soldat players..
are you calling Ok... INTELLIGENT... ?!!

hurraaa for propaganda!

...............
Ofcourse its popaganda!
Why do you think what you do? its all propaganda!
Difference is, there isn't any staging of scenes from our side, there's no need!
I can assure you there are no massacars, there are some ocasions where soldiers step out of line, and do stuff they shouldn't, most of them are going to jail.
And trust me, the palastinians have no hasitations of reporting anything.
Did you know there's a special unit which is meant to be a listening ear for every complaint from the palastinians?
did you know that there are Israeli civilians (mostly old women) who intentionaly go where the check points are to monitor the actions of the soldiers, and to comment and report anything wrong they see.

As I said more then once my friend told me stories of how annoying and how disturbing it is for their jobs (which is to check each civilian making sure he's not a terrorist trying to infiltrate Israel).

We have an army, not a terror group, this army is under strict rules , human rules.
This nation was built because of a massacr to its ppl, so its only natural its army will be civilized as much as possible.

This film shows a part of it, but its mostly true, our soldiers and our army sometimes risk their lifes by not returning fire when being shot at, why? so it wont reach the headlines.
So morons in other sides of the world won't get to see an Israeli soldier shooting at something that is not there.

It pisses me off when I hear an Israeli Soldier who died because of idiots all over the world, who believe anything they see..
It pisses me off that idiots around the world think they are so much better human beings if they whine about massacrs in Israel.

I know as much as the other guy about what happened in kosovo and so on, just like dear Fragbait thought there's a Civil war in Israel, that's what I know about what happened there.

I heard about massacars, its probably true, but I won't go around saying that side is wrong and this is not, I won't go around saying "Those idiots need to stop fighting"
Because I don't live in Sweden, or denmark, my nation still has to fight for its freedom.
I don't go around spreading stupid comments about stuff I don't know.
And if I would want to help, I would go there and offer it. other then that I shut up! since its not my place to interfer!

If you only knew the history of the Israel, you would know how silent the world was when we were attacked by forces 3-4 times our size. when Israel was on the verge of elimination.
When this area was nothing more then a testing grounds for the russians and the americans.
Where were all the peace makers then? why didn't anything yell "Massacar" in 1973?

Your parents didn't help us , so you shut up too and stop helping our enemies who wants to kill us.....

What brought any of this anger on in the first place? Seriously? I havn't seen any "stupid remarks from kids in here" about things to do with Israel for quite some time now (until this topic). Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?

Regardless, this is hardly a discussion or an arguement...it's completly one sided. So you feel the need to voice the truth and spread this clip...that's great, more power to ya and I agree some real, unchanged journalism needs to reach around the globe...but turning around to [CENSORED], name call, and anything else that's bound to happen in this topic is just counter productive to your end. Little hard to win people over when you're too busy on your high horse calling them ignorants and brain washed. This isn't meant to be condescending or to say that you're wrong...just saying to use more of your head and less of the mouth. After reading through these posts it seems that Ok is the only one of the two willing to actually go through with his original mission instead of giving into just as much assumption as the people he's trying to convince. I know you're smarter than that SK :D

And Ok...I can't speak for every American, but I know many who without a doubt don't support your enemies, or anyone elses enemies for that matter. Little hard to support the killing of a nation when you hardly hear about it, or even hear anything correct for that matter. I've got plenty of problems with what the actions of the government and the impacts they've left, especially in the forms of excess weaponry floating around the globe and getting bought up to blow up other people. I also hate the relentless nature with which information is skewed and bent to protect allies and shun enemies. It's a stain on the face of journalistic integrity. So I try to look for an unbiased source..I'm sure others do as well, or the radio programs I listen to wouldn't exist.

Long story short, I agree. Propoganda is one thing, but telling the truth is another which needs to be done now. The truth and the now is the only thing that can be acted upon and changed, not the past and certainly not things 20-30 years old. Until I'm in a position to help I refrain from suggestions of "Oh, you should do this"...I know I can't stand in your shoes right now. But it ceratinly doesn't mean I can't see things on the level with you, or that myself or every American is helping those who try and kill you. It's a shame there are so many loud, ignorant voices that drown out those voices of reason...

In a moment of Froggeh's defense...and IMO, anyway, I understood that comment to not to mean that conflict in Israel is not important, but rather overshadowed by other events in the media. Mudslides in South American killing hundreds, earthquakes, another approaching hurricane to US shores...in all of this I see a rare sprinkling of the run of the mill, sterotypical biased Middle East coverage. So, when he says that Israel isn't the only thing going on in the world and not the only thing shown on the news, he's correct in that regard.

I cannot help but note the irony in reading OK's signature under that post.

At any rate, although I will most likely (and hopefully) never know what it is like to be in your position, I can sympathize. People here in the US complain that thousands of our troops have died and accuse the US government of doing it all for oil and so on, ignoring the fact that we're liberating millions of innocent people from a lifestyle that was worse than what our founding fathers were willing to risk their lives over. They whine about WMDs and oil (which as far as I know Iraq is and will not be entitled to offer us whatsoever) and so on, when the truth is that it is all beside the point--the point is that those millions of innocent people are being saved from a tyranny (that we unwittingly installed, no less!) and what will hopefully be a successful democracy is being established in a part of the world that has never known the inherent human rights that we take for granted. In addition to all of that, we're making pretty good time considering it took 3 years to rebuild Cuba back in the early 1900s, without terrorists and economic problems and so on to slow things down.

But people still focus on ultimately insignificant details, and try to stretch them overtop of the big picture, and I want to wring their necks when they do. I honestly cannot even begin to comprehend how people can believe in such superficial things that are spoon-fed to them by a sensationalist media that capitalizes on the statistical fact that people pay more attention to gloom and doom than anything positive in nature. Today's media is a pile of crap, the cause of which I personally blame on the Baby Boomer generation; it was this generation that was the first to lack a common greater goal or challenge in US history, and thus filled in this empty space with... Well, that's all beside the point. I've rambled enough about Iraq and so on too much anyhow, since this is a topic about your situation.

In the end what I'm saying is that I feel for ya, dude; at least in the sense that everyone else in the world seems to ignore what seems so obvious, and it drives you nuts.

that was crazy

quote:Originally posted by SuperKill(when revealing lies is being called propoganda, you know something's not right)
hahah yea i understand...
... that you're yet another brainwashed fool.


yaya, there was a time when i'd wage forum fights with ignorants like you. that time is far behind, and honestly, right now i cant care less about what some outcasts at the other side of the planet, that think they know some shiz cause they've read some material. ;P

anyway, i'm off getting me an arab baby.. long time since i've eaten those. cya.

How ironic that I am being called brainwashed...
I'm not Jewish or Muslim, I was raised in Canada, and to be honest I knew nothing on the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict until around a year ago... The media in Canada is somewhat pro-Israeli, although not near the same extent as in the US.
Meanwhile, (I'm assuming) you lived your whole life in Israel, surrounded with these issues. I find it hard to believe that you could have an unbiased viewpoint.

The topic interested me, so I decided to do some investigation. As I usually do, I check the story from both sides and make my judgement from there.
Now who is more likely to be brainwashed?

OK Ok, so I see you are thoroughly convinced that the IDF does little wrong...
Well how about some statistics?
quote:123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 698 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,065 Israelis and 3,712 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

7,464 Israelis and 29,199 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000

There's also some testimony of former IDF soldiers.

I also have a few videos I could share, but they are very graphic and I don't think they would be appropriate for this forum...

And no, your nation isn't fighting for it's freedom, it's fighting to keep the lands it has occupied illegally.

quote:Originally posted by YoMammasMamma
At any rate, although I will most likely (and hopefully) never know what it is like to be in your position, I can sympathize. People here in the US complain that thousands of our troops have died and accuse the US government of doing it all for oil and so on, ignoring the fact that we're liberating millions of innocent people from a lifestyle that was worse than what our founding fathers were willing to risk their lives over. They whine about WMDs and oil (which as far as I know Iraq is and will not be entitled to offer us whatsoever) and so on, when the truth is that it is all beside the point--the point is that those millions of innocent people are being saved from a tyranny (that we unwittingly installed, no less!) and what will hopefully be a successful democracy is being established in a part of the world that has never known the inherent human rights that we take for granted. In addition to all of that, we're making pretty good time considering it took 3 years to rebuild Cuba back in the early 1900s, without terrorists and economic problems and so on to slow things down.
I can't believe you still think the Iraq war is a good thing...
Do you honestly believe Iraqis are now liberated?
If it was so bad under Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people would have given him the hell they are giving US troops now. If they are not afraid to fight the worlds most powerful army, why would they not rise up against Saddam?
Before the war, Iraq was one of the few secular arab countries, now Iraqis are being driven to religious extremism.
The Iraqi people are much worse off than ever before. Now they don't have a consistent supply of food, water, or electricity, and their country is on the brink of civil war.
And yes, people will continue to "whine" about WMDs because that was the lie that America used to justify the war, there was no mention of "liberation" until the public knew there were no WMDs.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
"Its all Ok" Means "Its all ME!!!"
not its all good <_<
I'm sick of ppl trying to use that double meaning phrase against me <_<

Anyhow, this is exactly what drives me nuts so much, and I see what's happening in Iraq, and it drives me nuts even more.
While we here defending our civilians in a direct matter (You kill a terrorist, you stop a suicide bombing that was planned for tomorrow).
Americans are over there in Iraq after 1 huge terrorist attack, and before that in Aphgan.. and doing much more damage then we ever thought of doing.
Yet we have to suffer the puppet like feeling of adjusting our actions to the world wide's opinion.
And then I think and read about the history of our wars, its outraging how we stood alone so many times with no help from others, quite the countrary (Embargo from France just when we were on the verge of elimination).
And now, when finaly we grew stronger and do not need any of your imidiate help in this conflict, we turned out to be the bad guys.

Then I hear ppl calling Israel a terrorist country, and condeming our actions, when I know for a fact its saving Israeli lifes!
For me its like they're yelling "[CENSORED] you! you can die! just let the palastinian live (The terrorists)".

And what pisses me off more, is how every person I talk to, changes the subject whenever the conclusion comes to that its not in our abilities to stop this war, only to defend ourself against it.

Furthermore, I had no illusions that this subject is on your mind night and day, but I can assure you there are ppl who feel strongly about this wrong input they're getting, and that eventualy limits us in our actions and by that allowing them to kill us.

By my friend's words: "In the past I was worried for my life and my soldier's life, today I'm worried for my soldier's and my enemie's lifes"

Can you imagin? waging a war against an enemie you're afraid of killing? can you imagin how many lifes are lost because of the "World wide opinion" and how many wounded are added to the que thx to that?
Its outraging...

This is as it seems, my 2 cents to the fights.
Also its helping in taking out some steem you know :)
The Soldiers themselfs can't speak, they're too busy, so I'm speaking in behalf of my friend.
He's finishing his service next month btw ^_^
Haleluya!

OK and SK, try to appreciate that it's hard for us to think your opinions aren't subjective ;\

quote:And what pisses me off more, is how every person I talk to, changes the subject whenever the conclusion comes to that its not in our abilities to stop this war, only to defend ourself against it.
Israel has the ability to stop this "war" at any time.
The solution is simple: get out of the lands that are not legally yours.

...it also wouldn't hurt to comply with UN resolutions.

Hahaha, "get out of the lands that are not legally yours?"

Let's assume the whole world worked this way: Every white person in the world would have to go back to Europe, every Asian back to Asia, every black person back to Africa, and every Middle Eastern back to where they came from. There would only be about a few million people in the Americas -- just a few natives who dominated that land thousands of years ago. Russia would give back half of its land, as would china. Germany, France, and England would have to become one country because they've traded land so many times that nobody knows who originally owned what. Then France/Germany/England would ditch the English Isles because that, too, was taken over from the natives. Then all of the Americas, Asia, Australia, and Europe would dissolve back into the Middle East (which would defeat the purpose of the Israelis leaving, eh?), and finally migrate back to Africa.

Goodbye world.

But let's get back to something a bit more sane than your proposal: Israel took over that land only in defense. They were attacked, but they turned the tables and won. This has happened hundreds of times in history, but you want to simply glance that all over as if it never happened because you have a biased view of how things really are.

If you actually looked at the world, you would realize that all counties on this planet exist for the sole reason that they took their land from someone else. On the other hand, you have shown that you have a bone to pick with the Israelis and have set up a double standard to deal with it. In my opinion, you're just as "vile" as the people who made that video.

By legally I meant according to laws that actually exist today.
Sorry if I was unclear.

Yes, lands have been stolen in the past. Where are the previous inhabitants? Mostly dead.
This should not happen to the Palestinians.
The beauty of living in a (supposedly) civilized society is that now we can stop things like this from happening.

Again, it's ironic how you call me biased when you yourself said in the past that you are Jewish (and most likely exposed to Zionist propaganda early on). I came into this with little to no previous knowledge of the situation and I'm sorry, but my sense of basic human decency makes me feel disgusted by Isreali political behavior.

This as usual is the 10000000000th time I'm repeating this.
And this are facts of History.
untill 1967 the gazza strip belonged to the egyptians, most of the Highground in the goland belonged to the syrians and the cities you here about (Jenin, Ramaala) and all of that area belonged to the Jordanian.
Before that it "belonged" to the brits, and before that to the turkish empire and before that to the Pasrian empire, before that to the Romans, before that to the Israelis and before that to an ancient ppl the canaanians.
See: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Canaan

History or the bible doesnt go back then that.

Anyhow, in 1967, Israel was attacked as usual by Egypt and Syria who forced Jordan to join them in the struggle, the jordanian were supported by Iraqian and Iranian armored devisions.
End result, 700 deaths by Israe, 20,000 deaths from the arrabs armies. the obliteration of the Egyption air force within the first 5 hours, and almost their entire army, not to mention we got Jerusalem after a hard urban battle of snipers and so on.
That was a huge achievment since we were outnumbered, not to mention the fact that finaly the Syrians couldn't bomb and harras Israeli cidizens from the high grounds, the Israeli part of Jerusalem wasn't under sniper firelines all the time and we had a nice desert to seperate us from the egyptians.

P.S: Before starting the war, Nazzar (the egyptian president) asked the UN forces who were in Sinai to just LEAVE! , guess what? they did! (the same UN you want us to listen to today...)

So after 1967, we had the gazza strip, the west bank and the high grounds in the Golan.
When signing the peace treatis with Egypt we wanted to give back the Gazza strip, its nothing more then a pain in the ass, they refuse.. since , its nothing more then a pain in the ass.
Same goes to the west bank.

Today the West Bank cities and the Gazza strip is just a wonderfull hideout and serves as the play ground for the mouse and cat game, when the terrorists play the mise and build explosive labs while our job is to track them, track the tunnels they use to infiltrate and get the stuff into Israel and evntualy yell the "Allah wa akabar" and then explode in the middle of a bar or a club or a bus.

Ask yourself, are they in there for the fun of it? 'cause I can assure you, the families of those soldiers are not having fun knownig their children are risking their lifes in there..
They are there for 1 reason only, to defend Israel , this is a war against terror, and you need to take it from the source, just like Bush went all the way to the middle east to retaliate for something that happened in the US.

Did you know all of that? no, all you know is that the Israelis are "occuping" the palastinians cities.

in 1948 when Israel got its territories from the UN the arrabs attacked and guess what? thx to that we got some more land, after 1967 we had even more, gave some back to get peace from Jordan and Egypt and voila! you have today's situation where we "STOLE" and "OCCUPIED" their beloved lands.

You don't create a country inorder to start fighting!!! you create a country to STOP IT!
And that my friend is why I call ppl like Michal , ignorants, since they are ignorant about what's happening here, but for some reason have such a solid opinion that not even the palastinians have, since even they know its not such a simple case.

Now after reading all of this, you're invited to search info in some more "objective" places, and then ask the question, what would happen if we would just LEAVE and go back to the 1967 boarders.
..."sense of basic human decency makes me feel disgusted by Isreali political behavior."
Does your sense of basic human decency enjoys seeing human beings blasted into parts?
Maybe you need to come over here and try to piece up humans being from their parts you found 5 meters away from each other?
Maybe then your "sense of basic human decency" will have some prespective and realize its not all black and white.

"There would only be about a few million people in the Americas -- just a few natives who dominated that land thousands of years ago."

Just a few eh? Some people estimate that there was well over 100 million native americans living in North America before Europeans arrived, after which most of them died

quote:Originally posted by lithiumIf you can't take a wimpy little 5-pound rock full-force on the noggin you don't deserve to be called a soldier.


Lolololololololol, a half pound rock could [CENSORED] anyone up xD

In 1967, Israel attacked first based on their belief that an Arab attack was imminent. I'm sure it was much in the same way as how America invaded Iraq "before they could attack".
It's simply not true to say that Israel is purely on the defensive. They are trying to expand their territories. Take a look at this. This wall shows another example of Israeli land grabbing. (It's also interesting that the wall was built with American tax dollars, but there was no money to fix the walls around New Orleans...)
Yes, I know that there are suicide bombers killing innocent Israelis. I don't support them, or the murder of anyone, but Israel breeds these "terrorists". America is also to blame with their simply unfair support and funding of Israel. And remember that many more Palestinians have died of Israeli action than vice-versa, how can this happen if Israel is only defending?
When a man is driven to desperation and international law is inneffective, what can he do? How can he fight? It is civilians against soldiers.
Do you know what will happen if you just leave and go back to the 1967 borders? Peace.
If you give the Palestinians what they want, they will no longer have any reason to risk their own lives attacking Israelis.
Israel is at no risk of attack from Arab countries. Israel has nuclear weapons, and the best equipped military in the region, not to mention America would defend it.

quote:Originally posted by Cookie.Just a few eh? Some people estimate that there was well over 100 million native americans living in North America before Europeans arrived, after which most of them died


Hehe, shows my ignorance of actual population numbers. That's a [CENSORED]load of people.

quote:Originally posted by Michal.Where are the previous inhabitants? Mostly dead.
This should not happen to the Palestinians.
The beauty of living in a (supposedly) civilized society is that now we can stop things like this from happening.

Absolutely. There are two options here: the Israelis back off of land that they own to appease other people (which, in fact, they are trying to do), or the Palestinians back off and realize that they're in a land that doesn't belong to them.

Which do you think is easier? On the one hand, the Israelis have the power to simply back off. But then there's the complication that they look weak at a time when the only thing keeping the enemies that surround them from attacking is the fact that they currently look strong. Not to mention the fact that these same people wanted Israel's land before Israel even expanded. On the other, the Palestinians could simply stop attacking. And that's really as simple as it gets. They stop attacking, assimilate, problem solved. This benefits everyone because now the Palestinians reap the benefits that Israel has had for years.

quote:Originally posted by Michal.Again, it's ironic how you call me biased when you yourself said in the past that you are Jewish (and most likely exposed to Zionist propaganda early on). I came into this with little to no previous knowledge of the situation and I'm sorry, but my sense of basic human decency makes me feel disgusted by Isreali political behavior.

It's not ironic, it's hypocritical. A fact I'm very familiar with. The difference is that, instead of making an argument based on ignorance as you claim you do, I realized my bias early on and sought out sources of information contrary to what I had been taught growing up.

You, on the other hand, don't realize that you have a bias. This leads you to dismiss anything you see that goes against what you believe unconditionally. "Vile zionist propoganda," you didn't even listen to the damn thing. :D

quote:Absolutely. There are two options here: the Israelis back off of land that they own to appease other people (which, in fact, they are trying to do), or the Palestinians back off and realize that they're in a land that doesn't belong to them.

It's good that Israelis left Gaza, but I'm afraid it is just a distraction from further land grabs and settlement in the west bank. The occupied land does belong to the Palestinians, or do you think Israel outranks the UN?

quote:Which do you think is easier? On the one hand, the Israelis have the power to simply back off. But then there's the complication that they look weak at a time when the only thing keeping the enemies that surround them from attacking is the fact that they currently look strong.
Looking weak? This is quite a silly argument. Israel is the only country in the middle east with nuclear weapons (not to mention its fine inventory of conventional American weaponry). Arab leaders are not idiots, they will not invade a country that has the ability to obliterate their cities with the push of a button.

quote:They stop attacking, assimilate, problem solved. This benefits everyone because now the Palestinians reap the benefits that Israel has had for years.
I woud think it's difficult to not fight back when there's a bulldozer headed for your home. Israel is expanding its settlements and tearing down Palestinian homes and destroying Palestinian lives. Palestinians are not the instigators.
Israelis will never let Palestinians assimilate, Israel is the most racist state in existence.

quote:You, on the other hand, don't realize that you have a bias. This leads you to dismiss anything you see that goes against what you believe unconditionally. "Vile zionist propoganda," you didn't even listen to the damn thing. :D
No. I know that I have a bias now.
I had no predispositions when first going into the subject, unlike you.
And yes, I watched (and heard) that whole [CENSORED]ty video and I acknowledged that it could be telling the truth. But it is a mere distraction from the real crimes committed against Palestinians by Israelis on a daily basis.

I think both propagandas are, to some extent, true. Israelis are discrimintating individuals who took a land that wasn't their own and palestinians [url="http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm
"]brutal terrorists[/url] that fight dirty - only some of them of course.
As usual, the victims are civilians and soldiers that do their job, though I'm sure most of them don't mean any harm to innocent people; on the other side, the local inhabitants must fight back, because if they didn't, nobody would've cared about them; the zionist lobby already has a good portion of the US media backing them (from which, in turn, a lot of the world medias depends).

This is why I'd hate to be on either side.

quote:Originally posted by MichalIt's good that Israelis left Gaza, but I'm afraid it is just a distraction from further land grabs and settlement in the west bank. The occupied land does belong to the Palestinians, or do you think Israel outranks the UN?

I don't think it's another "distraction," Israel has been trying out different ways towards peace for years. Some work, others fail miserably, but I definitely believe that they don't have any time to waste on potential distractions.

As for the land belonging to the Palestinians -- it simply doesn't. If anything (and according to your belief that only modern laws count), it belongs to Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (but then, even Syria and Lebanon are fighting over parts of the Golan heights).

Whether or not Israel outranks the UN isn't even an issue. Especially because of the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement that basically concedes that Israel owns whatever land it has until an agreement can be met.

quote:Looking weak? This is quite a silly argument. Israel is the only country in the middle east with nuclear weapons (not to mention its fine inventory of conventional American weaponry). Arab leaders are not idiots, they will not invade a country that has the ability to obliterate their cities with the push of a button.

Is it silly when you pity a football player who has just been tackled? He could probably kill you just by jumping on you and yet, when he makes a little mistake, he suddenly looks very weak not only to his fans but also to his opponents.

Israel is a single country surrounded by enemies. These enemies also have quite advanced weaponry courtesy of the Russians (most of which can easily contend with even the best in the modern U.S. arsenal) and a combined pool of well over eight times the fighting force that Israel has.

As for Israel having any nuclear capabilities, there is absolutely no proof that they have any weapons. Yes, it is possible that they have them, but it's also equally possible that Egypt does, too, considering the fact that they actually had a nuclear weapon research and development program.

quote:Israel is the most racist state in existence.

Actually, if I had to vote on the most racist state in existence, I would go with England...Spain ties for a close second. Israel is comparatively tame to most other countries when it comes to racism. Come to think of it, have you ever actually been to Israel and witnessed any racism, or are you just basing your answers from what you see on television?

quote:No. I know that I have a bias now.

Good. It's always a step in the right direction to realize that you have a bias so that you can deal with it and think things out logically.

[/quote]I had no predispositions when first going into the subject, unlike you.[/quote]

Yes. It's absolutely true. I had a predisposition -- something I was tought all throughout my life, something that I completely believed -- that Israel had absolutely no right to the land that it stole from the poor Palestinians and that they should give it all back and stop murdering innocent people.

But wait, that's not exactly what you were expecting, was it?

Fact is, my parents had no say in that subject and tried to keep me ignorant of it -- but my friend's parents made a point about teaching a little Jewish child the "truth" of the matter.

Unlike someone who came into the subject through ignorance, I came into the subject with a bias. One that I quickly realized I had and struggled to find out if I should either accept it or reject. After taking information from a variety of sources (few of which were television and the self-proclaimed experts known as my peers), I finally formed my own opinion on the matter, all contrary to what I had been led to believe.

So my point still stands -- knowledge is better than ignorance under any circumstance.

quote:And yes, I watched (and heard) that whole [CENSORED]ty video and I acknowledged that it could be telling the truth.

Good. I'm sure you also thought about the potential implications that world based on false media could have.

quote:But it is a mere distraction from the real crimes committed against Palestinians by Israelis on a daily basis.

No. Stop with your "distraction" ideas. This film isn't anywhere near popular enough, nor could the creators have realistically expected it to be, in order to distract anyone from anything. It's merely pointing out that news of what's going on in Israel isn't always what it seems.


(This is split into two posts because of a random forum error that puts everything in this post into one large quote for some strange reason)

quote:
The solution is simple: get out of the lands that are not legally yours.

cracks me up everytime i hear that [CENSORED].
allright, assuming we need to get out of the lands that "we illegaly stole", how about USA giving the Indians their home back?
..(note that i don't believe they should give them their land back, i just used it to make a comparision)..

and whom should we give the lands back to, exactly?
the brits?
the turks?
hell, lets give it back to the [CENSORED]ing romes while we're at it?

keep living in your bubble that all jews, or israelies must have gone through some kind of brainwash.
obviously you don't know what's going on here if you say that crap.
but its even more obvious that you are the one with the biased opinions around here, seeing as you've probably never been in Israel or the middle east, but still claim we're the most racist country in the world.
hell, if we're so racist, how come our 2nd biggest city has 40% muslim population?

quote:I don't think it's another "distraction," Israel has been trying out different ways towards peace for years. Some work, others fail miserably, but I definitely believe that they don't have any time to waste on potential distractions.

Yes, Israeli methods towards peace include: destroying palestinian homes, building an apartheid wall, expanding settlement in the west bank...
I wonder why it's not working...
The land simply does not belong to them. And Israel has the audacity to claim Jerusalem as their capital even when it is in illegally occupied territory.
Don't get me wrong, I think giving up Gaza was a step on the right direction, but Israel will have to sacrifice more if they want peace.

quote:Is it silly when you pity a football player who has just been tackled? He could probably kill you just by jumping on you and yet, when he makes a little mistake, he suddenly looks very weak not only to his fans but also to his opponents.
I pity no football player ;]

quote:Israel is a single country surrounded by enemies. These enemies also have quite advanced weaponry courtesy of the Russians (most of which can easily contend with even the best in the modern U.S. arsenal) and a combined pool of well over eight times the fighting force that Israel has.
Israel's enemies weapons are quite advanced (for cold war era weapons).
These weapons are obsolete compared to Israel's modern arsenal courtesy of the USA, it is seriously a joke to think that these enemy states can contend with Israeli military technology.
Israelis know they are under no serious threat. America will without a doubt protect them.
If they were actually under a threat then I'm sure their actions would be a little more restrained...

quote:As for Israel having any nuclear capabilities, there is absolutely no proof that they have any weapons. Yes, it is possible that they have them, but it's also equally possible that Egypt does, too, considering the fact that they actually had a nuclear weapon research and development program.
Google "Dimona" or "Vanunu" you'll find all the proof you need.
Israel has a nuclear weapons program, and has had it for quite some time.
They have just chosen not to officially confirm it.
quote:Actually, if I had to vote on the most racist state in existence, I would go with England...Spain ties for a close second. Israel is comparatively tame to most other countries when it comes to racism. Come to think of it, have you ever actually been to Israel and witnessed any racism, or are you just basing your answers from what you see on television?
Comparatively tame? That's funny, is this your idea of comparatively tame?
In Spain or England statements like these would get politicians kicked out of office, in Israel it gets them elected.

quote:Yes. It's absolutely true. I had a predisposition -- something I was tought all throughout my life, something that I completely believed -- that Israel had absolutely no right to the land that it stole from the poor Palestinians and that they should give it all back and stop murdering innocent people.

But wait, that's not exactly what you were expecting, was it?

Fact is, my parents had no say in that subject and tried to keep me ignorant of it -- but my friend's parents made a point about teaching a little Jewish child the "truth" of the matter.

Unlike someone who came into the subject through ignorance, I came into the subject with a bias. One that I quickly realized I had and struggled to find out if I should either accept it or reject. After taking information from a variety of sources (few of which were television and the self-proclaimed experts known as my peers), I finally formed my own opinion on the matter, all contrary to what I had been led to believe.

So my point still stands -- knowledge is better than ignorance under any circumstance.
It is simply ridiculous to say that you had no pro-Israel bias, there is no way in hell you felt no kinship with the only Jewish nation on earth. You wanted to believe that Israel is right in the matter, so you set out to prove it.
If we were talking about Poland, I know that I will always have a positive bias towards it. It's not possible to deny something that is a part of you.

And please, don't confuse my former ignorance on the subject with my current knowledge.

quote:It's not possible to deny something that is a part of you.

shows what you know, jackass.
you wouldn't believe how many israelies share the same opinion as you.
perhaps you should meet a new term - LEFT WING.

about the whole "israel is the only nation with nukes in the middle east" shiet; oh, and i guess Iran is developing anti-bug spray with all of it's rich plutonium.

btw, why get your hopes up about the UN?
i'm not entirely sure but.. i really don't remember even one verdict by the UN, that actually got some attention from the side who's being forced to do 'it'.

[edit] - and just to piss you off, jet fighters are currently attacking gaza :)

Michal, congratulations on turning a (semi)decent discussion into a guess-who-can-spew-more-diarrhea-from-their-mouth fest. Well guess what, you win by default.

Oh SuperKill, I wasn't expecting to see you back here since you no longer wage forum fights with ignorants like me.
I must have struck a nerve then... :]
quote:cracks me up everytime i hear that [CENSORED].
allright, assuming we need to get out of the lands that "we illegaly stole", how about USA giving the Indians their home back?
..(note that i don't believe they should give them their land back, i just used it to make a comparision)..

and whom should we give the lands back to, exactly?
the brits?
the turks?
hell, lets give it back to the [CENSORED]ing romes while we're at it?

keep living in your bubble that all jews, or israelies must have gone through some kind of brainwash.
obviously you don't know what's going on here if you say that crap.
but its even more obvious that you are the one with the biased opinions around here, seeing as you've probably never been in Israel or the middle east, but still claim we're the most racist country in the world.
hell, if we're so racist, how come our 2nd biggest city has 40% muslim population?
Most of the "Indians" are gone now through intentional and unintentional genocide. Only about 1% of the US population is Native American, and well over 1% of US land officially belongs to them. Simply put, the Natives already have all the land they need.

I'm not saying that Israel shouldn't exist. Jews need a place of their own, but so do the Palestinians. I know there are extremists on both sides, those who want to "drive the Jews into the sea", and those who want "Arabs to the gas chambers", but extremism will never solve anything. If there is to be peace, there needs to be compromise. I simply believe that Israel should stop expansion and move back to the pre-1967 borders and let the Palestinians resume living in those freed areas.

There may be large Arab populations but it doesn't mean they are treated well, or desired by Jewish Israelis.
quote:shows what you know, jackass.
you wouldn't believe how many israelies share the same opinion as you.
perhaps you should meet a new term - LEFT WING.
Obviously there aren't enough of such people, or they do not have enough influence. Otherwise there would be peace by now
quote:about the whole "israel is the only nation with nukes in the middle east" shiet; oh, and i guess Iran is developing anti-bug spray with all of it's rich plutonium.
Iran is building a power plant. They are smart enough to realize that oil will not last forever.
This is a fine example of brainwashing. I suppose you believe(d) that Iraq also had nuclear/chemical/biological weapons. Or maybe the WMD were sent to Syria for safekeeping?

Propaganda is being ramped up against Iran and Syria in the exact same way as it was for Iraq, and it is lies. You have to be blind not to see the pattern. I'm positive the US will invade one of these nations next.

Note how pressure is mounting on Iran for their nuclear program, but North Korea is practically forgotten by the US. You know why? Because Israel doesn't give a [CENSORED] about North Korea.
quote:btw, why get your hopes up about the UN?
i'm not entirely sure but.. i really don't remember even one verdict by the UN, that actually got some attention from the side who's being forced to do 'it'.
The UN has done some good, but unfortunately it lacks the muscle to go against American interests.
quote:Michal, congratulations on turning a (semi)decent discussion into a guess-who-can-spew-more-diarrhea-from-their-mouth fest. Well guess what, you win by default.
OK :)

Ho Ho Ho.
I'm gone for 2 days for a trip (In the Golan btw, the same area the Syrians lost to us hehe)
Now there are alot of wrong facts in here.
First one is our nuclear ability, being there or not, it doesnt really matter, bombing any of the countries around us, means us dying along with them (Israel is VERY small and VERY close to its enemies), so its not really an option now is it, Israelis aren't known for their suicidal desires.

Second of all, the only reason we're not getting out of there, is not a weakness, its much less important then the real reason we're in there (with an army none the less), each day that passes by they're trying to build more bomb labs, more tunnels etc etc. and that's while we have an army, and spies in there. so imagin what it would be if we'll leave.

We are not fighting Palastinians, we're fighting Terrorists groups, most of them ofcourse are palastinians (some are helping hands from other arrab countries) and they're "smart" enough to use their own ppl as a line of defence, and by that gaining support from ppl like you.


1967 war:
Its true, we did attack first, it was quite a dilema in the Israeli govrement.
Since you see, it was obvious that if we attack first, we'll get "flamed" by the UN and the rest of the world, on the other hand, not attacking first, means they get a huge head start on us and it might even cost us the war, now what you don't realize, is that its not like America attacking Iraq, since if America is lossing the war against Iraq, they just go back home and lick their wounds (*cough* vietnam *cough*), while if we loss it, we loss everything, our country, most likely our ppl since at those times the soldiers saw jews as the devil and basicly butchered everyone they've captured.
When the enemie is moving EVEYTHING he has to your boarders, and asking the UN to get the [CENSORED] out of the way, its pretty obvious he's going to war, aspecialy when it already tried many times before to finish you off.
So yes we attacked, and got damn what a great decision that was. btw we only attacked Egypt.
Btw, if you'll read history in Egypt today, you'll read about that war and how it was innitiated by Egypt and Syria even though we were the one who attacked first (destroying their air fields and all the planes in it).

I can assure you, that scene can happen again, Egypt and Syria are both arrab nations, they hold twice the army we can hold even if we recruit everyone.
All they need is 1 president who doesnt give a [CENSORED] about his ppl, or the peace treaty with Israel (Egypt only) and puff lets whipe out the Israelis, its not so long ago when they almost tried it, in 1973 after we oblitirated them completly in 1967.

America didn't help us back then, today it might be different though, who knows, we cant count on it though, since as I said, lossing 1 war means us lossing everything.

Now back to the subject, leaving Gazza is not a distraction, its just another step of the way when we're trying to give something hoping it will help things advance towords peace and ofcourse reducing the number of soldiers needed to guard that part, now we just need to make a good boarder to make sure they're not trying to do what they're doing in Lebanon, which is throwing rockets into Israeli territory (trying to hit the civilians in the other side of the boarder).

This is yet another case when you return back to boarders, and ancient forgotten nations.
If you only knew why they are called palastinians in the first place, if you only knew who were those palastinians before that (Part Jordanian, part Egyptian), if you only knew how hard we tried to give those territories back !! BACCCK not to keep it, we don't want it!!! who the [CENSORED] wants a land full of ppl that want to kill you?
The only good way of dealing with it, is killing them all, its not an option, never was, Israel is not about to kill innocents intetionaly or no reason.
And the only other way is them being a pain in the ass, which they have.

Also, another fact you probably chose to ignore, in 2000 (when I got recruited yay), the intifada started again, raging even the streets of Israel when Israeli Arrabs had riots in the streets.
We were attacked with out own weapons, since we simply gave them weapons, helped them build a police and a small army to maintain and fight the terrorists (who are also terrorising any palastinians who refuse to do their bidding).

So we didn't just LEAVE! we even gave them weapons and tought them how to keep the peace in there amongs them.
And that move ended up with them attacking us, because 1 man entered 1 zone and that pissed them off.

There's no doubt our actions are creating more terrorists, and helping them in their cause.
But without those actions Israeli cidizens will die, its not an option of good or bad, its an option of bad, or wrose.
If there was an easy solution, like "Leaving" , there is not reason for us to NOT do it.
Being in there costs us life, and money, none of the above are sparable for Israel.

I'm not mad, I'm not angry, because you're not the first to say "Just leave" I accepted the fact that you are in a very distanced place where you cant possibly know all there is to know, and in most cased u need that to really have a solid opinion.
Even our LEFT WING as SK said, know that leaving those areas doesnt mean peace, it means more labs , more tunnels and alot more work for our IDF (go find what that is..) to stop their attempts to kill Israelis.

Israel never wanted more territories, why would we? again, use your common sense, we're surounded by enemies, in 1967 we had no such support from America or anyone else! our aircrafts were FRENCH! not american!
Our tanks were Half british!
And the countries around us had so much more then 2-3 times our army.
Attacking them and starting a war is a very stupid act, unless war is inavitable, and then you need to think about the element of First attack which means Tactical war [CENSORED] you can never understand.
The victory in 1967, surprised Israel so much, it almost didn't make sense, but after reading comments from warrios back then, you get the feeling and the understanding of what gave us the edge.
A conquering army will never be as strong as an army defending his homeland and his family.
They came here to attack and kill others, we met them to defend our families and their only home, that's why you didn't see Israeli soldiers surrendoring, only they did it, since that soldier in that outpost doesnt care about dying , he cares about his family dying, and if he can die while taking 4-5 others with him, then he helped as much as he can, and that's not a line of thinking a conquerer has... and that's why we won all those wars, and that's why we have such a strong army, in 1967 our weapons were much less advanced then the arrab's ones who had russian tanks and airplanes.

Tzahal= IDF= Israel Defence Force, was meant to defend Jews in a save haven, and has been doing so since 1948. and will keep doing so untill there won't be any attempts at killing Israeli cidizens, conquering anything for the sake of expanding alone, is a waste of resources , a waste of money, time , LIFES! and does not serve Israel in any matter.

quote:Originally posted by MichalOh SuperKill, I wasn't expecting to see you back here since you no longer wage forum fights with ignorants like me.
I must have struck a nerve then... :]

forum fight? it was merely a 100 word post.
struck a nerve? haha, how about no.
why would a whiney person that cant change things for [CENSORED], and lives across the world, get on my nerves?
i don't really care about what you believe in.

You should, because of ppl like him, you sometimes find outposts without backup while being attacked , just because the IDF fears the world wide opinion if they go in to help them.
That's how 3 soldiers died in 2000 when some riots started and a mob started attacking an outpost, with 10 soldiers in it, who didn't even return fire, since in the mob there were Palastinians officers who had m-16 they got from us, but also kids who came to watch the show and throw some rocks..

On another note, I just came back from a clinic, and had to wait for my turn, there was a T.V on the wall and it was set to the news, 4 other ppl were sitting there with me, watching the news reporting a suicide bombing in a market in Hadera (A city in Israel) , the woman next to me called her mother very calmly she asked her "Did grandma went to the market today?", I'm assuming the answer is no, since she said "Ok" and hung up the phone, I was watching it, and it was just a shocking moment for me, realizing how aphathic we became to this reality.
I'm still pondering upon the question is it healthy to embrase this kind of mentality, is it denial or adaptation?

quote:First one is our nuclear ability, being there or not, it doesnt really matter, bombing any of the countries around us, means us dying along with them (Israel is VERY small and VERY close to its enemies), so its not really an option now is it, Israelis aren't known for their suicidal desires.
I know that Israel wouldn't attack with nukes first. I was thinking of it as a deterrent from others invading. I think it's a pretty damn good reason not to invade.
quote:Second of all, the only reason we're not getting out of there, is not a weakness, its much less important then the real reason we're in there (with an army none the less), each day that passes by they're trying to build more bomb labs, more tunnels etc etc. and that's while we have an army, and spies in there. so imagin what it would be if we'll leave.
But you see, if you leave then most Palestinians won't have a reason to build bomb labs and tunnels. Previous to the Gaza pullout I read many articles that predicted all hell to break loose once Israelis left. Things like massive rocket attacks, major bombings, etc. Did that happen? As far as I know it didn't. I doubt that once you give the majority of Palestinians what they want they will still risk their lives to attack Israel.
quote:We are not fighting Palastinians, we're fighting Terrorists groups, most of them ofcourse are palastinians (some are helping hands from other arrab countries) and they're "smart" enough to use their own ppl as a line of defence, and by that gaining support from ppl like you.
It's not fair to label anyone who fights back as a "terrorist", remember that this is an army fighting civilians. I don't support the killing of anyone, but I can't expect people in such conditions to not fight back.
They aren't gaining support from people like me, they are gaining support from the wrong actions of Israelis.
quote:I can assure you, that scene can happen again, Egypt and Syria are both arrab nations, they hold twice the army we can hold even if we recruit everyone.
All they need is 1 president who doesnt give a [CENSORED] about his ppl, or the peace treaty with Israel (Egypt only) and puff lets whipe out the Israelis, its not so long ago when they almost tried it, in 1973 after we oblitirated them completly in 1967.

America didn't help us back then, today it might be different though, who knows, we cant count on it though, since as I said, lossing 1 war means us lossing everything.
I don't think it's possible for this to happen again. Any president who orders an invasion of Israel is ordering his own suicide (along with whatever city he's in) I doubt they'd be willing to sacrifice that.
As long as the current administration is in power in the US (and I fear it will be a loong time), Israel has nothing to fear.
quote:The only good way of dealing with it, is killing them all, its not an option, never was, Israel is not about to kill innocents intetionaly or no reason.
And the only other way is them being a pain in the ass, which they have.
Unfortunately, innocents are being killed intentionally. It isn't just an occassional IDF soldier who goes crazy (although I'm sure it happens, like in any active army) Soldiers are being ordered to commit atrocities.
BTW, suicide is the number one cause of death in the IDF. I can't really blame those who do, I know I'd find it hard to live with being a murderer.
quote:Also, another fact you probably chose to ignore, in 2000 (when I got recruited yay), the intifada started again, raging even the streets of Israel when Israeli Arrabs had riots in the streets.
We were attacked with out own weapons, since we simply gave them weapons, helped them build a police and a small army to maintain and fight the terrorists (who are also terrorising any palastinians who refuse to do their bidding).
And yet many more Palestinians where killed than Israelis. About 3.5 Palestinians were killed by Israelis for every 1 Israeli killed by Palestinians. This doesn't make sense if Israel is waging a defensive war.
quote:Even our LEFT WING as SK said, know that leaving those areas doesnt mean peace, it means more labs , more tunnels and alot more work for our IDF (go find what that is..) to stop their attempts to kill Israelis.
Again, if you give the Palestinians what they want, they'll have no reason to attack.
quote:Israel never wanted more territories, why would we? again, use your common sense, we're surounded by enemies, in 1967 we had no such support from America or anyone else! our aircrafts were FRENCH! not american!
Our tanks were Half british!
And the countries around us had so much more then 2-3 times our army.
Attacking them and starting a war is a very stupid act, unless war is inavitable, and then you need to think about the element of First attack which means Tactical war you can never understand.
So why is Israel building a wall that takes 2800 acres (11 300 km²) away from Palestinians?

quote:Tzahal= IDF= Israel Defence Force, was meant to defend Jews in a save haven, and has been doing so since 1948. and will keep doing so untill there won't be any attempts at killing Israeli cidizens, conquering anything for the sake of expanding alone, is a waste of resources , a waste of money, time , LIFES! and does not serve Israel in any matter.
It may not serve Israelis, but it does serve the government, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Remember that the people are rarely a governments first priority, this is a sad fact of how the world works.

Ok, I really tried to relate, and I do relate, I'm no angry with you.
I'm just reading what you're saying, and you're really an idiot, its not the resources anymore.
Don't take it personaly, I'm sure that with time, you'll mature, see things more clearly, with alot of stuff, not just world wide issues.

I'll explain why as well, so you wont consider this yet another flame, I just cant find a better word other then idiot, maybe fool, but I consider myself a fool when I'm drunk and do stupid things, so this case doesnt go under that discription.

#1 Reason for death is suicide? you think they do it because they consider themselfs murderes?
Dude, WTF?!
where the hell do you come up with those comments?!
I served in that army, I even know a guy who knew a girl who killed herself in her base.
She was a [CENSORED]ing secretary! she killed herself because she was crushed after finding out she had cancer and so did her father (Her mother died of cancer too).
I heard about anoter incident when a [CENSORED] soldier killed himself after someone found out he's [CENSORED] and told the rest.
In a country when you go straight to the army from highschool and waste 3 years in the army just by default because you leave in this situation when you need one this big for this small place, you bound to find cases when ppl who were wrongly examined by doctors to be healthy enough for the army kill themselfs after that amount of pressure and change in their lifes.

And you come here claiming this bull[CENSORED] facts about commiting suicide being #1?? WTF?!
In IDF soldiers are not getting orders to murder anyone, and if a soldier goes out of line he goes to jail! there are strict rules to IDF , and they got even stricter to the line where the soldier itself risk his life so idiots (again, nothing personal) like you won't get a chance to inflate situations and blur out bull[CENSORED] in such huge quantities.

quote:But you see, if you leave then most Palestinians won't have a reason to build bomb labs and tunnels. Previous to the Gaza pullout I read many articles that predicted all hell to break loose once Israelis left. Things like massive rocket attacks, major bombings, etc. Did that happen? As far as I know it didn't. I doubt that once you give the majority of Palestinians what they want they will still risk their lives to attack Israel.

Now you see? this is the main reason I'm saying you're an idiot, I'm telling you about a suicide bombing, and you're telling me nothing happened.
Ofcourse you don't know about the convoys who go through the gazza strip of all the Kassam rockets that are being delivered into the gazza strip, also it takes quite a while to restore everything back to laungh a massive suicide attack like they did few years back before we got into Janin and [CENSORED]ed it up (I have no regrets about it to be honest been very quite in Israel since then and I enjoy living and breathing in 1 piece).

quote: Again, if you give the Palestinians what they want, they'll have no reason to attack.

Read history, we tried giving them what we wanted.
Actualy I've said it here, but you seem to ignore every true fact and you make your own.
And very colorful indeed, you probably read somewhere about an Israeli soldier who killed himself, and then decided that its the number 1 reason of death in the IDF, and then ofcourse added a nice touch to it by saying its because they thought they were murderers.
You're just a joke dude...

You seem to "know" so much about Israel, it goes so deep u even know what's happening in the brains of the soldiers who kill themselfs, you're a gifted person!

P.S: see the movies and realize that 3.5 vs 1 might not be so accurate.

Not that I have a problem with it mate.
You seem to forget this isn't a discussion about who dies more, I have no doubt they are, and I'm fine with it, IDF is meant to defend Israelis, my own friend managed to arrest 4 terror squad , if he hadn't more Israelis would have died.

While they use their own ppl as shields and the humanity factor in IDF against its own soldiers.
So I wouldn't so surprised or even mention the fact they die more, since its pretty obvious.
Now go watch the movie again.

And ask yourself "If what they say is true, why do they need to fake even 1 scene? if there is so much horror and massacar from the Israelis why do they need to bother so much with staging scenes?"

A fact you should know, the war zones are packed with camera man and photographers... so if something happens you can be sure it will be recorded in real time.

Now don't take this perosonaly, I'm not angry or mad at you.
You're just an idiot, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll improve yourself.
It happens alot, alot of ppl are idiots, hell even I was an idiot once (flamers! ready? go!).
This place is packed with idiots.
So its OK! just know it, that's all I ask.

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this whole topic?

Here's an article, its quite old, and is not relevant to today's ditachment plan when its obvious we decided to give even more then before.
But it state clearly, what has happened since the uprising in 2000, and why it happened, and how did the palastinians themselfs started to see that Israel won't submit to terror.

This also explains the palywood productions, when they realized terror doesnt work, they start making stuff up and use idiots like you (I hope you're not offended seriously) to their cause.

quote:
But you see, if you leave then most Palestinians won't have a reason to build bomb labs and tunnels.
palestinians wont stop the terrorism acts untill;
A) IDF will start striking hard, showing terror groups who's country is it.
B) Israel's government will give out the entire country, along with the capital Jerusalem, to the palestinians.

hell even their priminister's motto is Today Gaza, tomorrow Jerusalem.
a fine example would be the latest Israeli retreatment from gaza. palestinian priminister, and sevral terror groups have said they will stop terrorism acts at all costs since the very moment Israel will complete the retreatment from the strip, and guess what? 2 days after it was done, 25 missiles were fired at a medium-sized city.
their priminister does nothing to ensure that nobody will manage to sneak explosive through the boarders, yet he acts and talks like he's all saint.
thing is, people like me will never be able to change minds of weak people like you Michal, or the entire pathetic left wing society. (but does it really matter? ;p)

quote:
BTW, suicide is the number one cause of death in the IDF.

a line you'd expect from a left wing retard. shut the [CENSORED] up.

quote:
So why is Israel building a wall that takes 2800 acres (11 300 km²) away from Palestinians?

to prevent suicide bombers to enter our territory? duh?
guess what, it worked.


@Ok; any high-ranked millitary person that does not send reinforcement to his own soldiers in danger, just for the fact that he fears the global media, deserves to be shot in the balls.

They did.
You see, it was back then when Israel was still counting on the Palastinian Police to assist them.
There was a wounded soldier that got shot from a sniper in one of the building around the outpost (they were guarding the Josef resting place, a holy place for jews), Israel prefered to ask the palastinians to assist them. and send ambulances to get the wounded soldier, and all that by watching them and the outpost go on fire from a high position.

IDF even had a special plan , within 5 minutes they could be in there with tanks to cover, and ambulances to take the wounded out and them aswell.

But they prefer to wait for the head the palastinian police, now here's the irony, alot of the attackers on the post WERE THE PALASTINIAN POLICEMAN!
The soldiers were interviewed and said they were shocked, the same guy they were patroling yesterdayu together with, was now shooting at them.
And finaly when the head of their police got there, they prepeared an escort, and in that escort the soldier were freaked out to see alot of the men who attacked them earlier , who now were assigned to gaurd them in their way out.

This is was the reality here, when we gave them weapons, trusted them to deal with the terrorists.
But eventualy we found out that alot of the money they got from us, helped develope the terrorist groups.

We gave them a country, money, guns, training , helped them , expected them to help us, and got a bullet in our face.

And then you come here, and tell us to do it again.
Now even an idiot like you can ask himself this question : "Why aren't they doing it if its that easy?"
Do you think we're different from you? do you think I enjoy being checked for bombs for every place I go into?
do you think I enjoy wasting 3 years of my life on the army? pricks like you enjoy the benefits of going to college right after school, and in a time when I only start developing my life, you already started you career.

Do you think we enjoy sending our sons to die there? we maybe a stronger army, but a bullet still kills man, and the loss of 1 man's life is just as bad as a million!
You keep saying the goverement... well I can tell you this, Israelis have strong opinions and they say it whenever they can (As you can see in here) we're not idiot who vote for a puppet president that barely speak proper English.

Our president and his "hostile" actions, was being flamed for his retreat, his voters were angry that he gave up, the same voters who send their sons to the army.
And that's because they realize the importance of their jobs in there, not for the bible, not for the jewish legacy.. but for maintaining our way of life, our democracy and the safety of the Israeli ppl who by the way include ALOT OF ARRABS!

In alot of the suicide bombing you had arrab casualties, not only jews.
But the palastinians don't care, they consider it "Holy deaths".
I promise you the families of the victims do not share that feeling.

And in the news today, in a little corner of my newspaper....


"Wipe Israel off the map, says Iran's president" the title reads.

'The president of Iran yesterday issued an explosive declaration of hate towards Israel. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad demanded that the state should be 'wiped off the map', he said to a conference called 'The World without Zionism' that there could be no let-up in Iran's hostility to Israel. "The Islamic world will not let it's historic enemy live in it's heartland" he told 3000 conservative students who chanted 'death to Israel' and 'Death to America'.

..then it moves on to how they have ballistic missiles recently made, but only requires atomic fuel for their power stations, and how it only offers 'moral support' towards palestinian militant groups.


All in all, despite the obvious confusion that can be had towards just what the truth is on the Middle East, there are two facts that the entire world know for sure.

1. You're all bat-[CENSORED] [CENSORED]ing crazy.

2. And it scares the crap out of us.

Scares you?!?!?
We're [CENSORED]ing in the heart of it all!
Despite what you think, Israel is not just another mediteranian country.
Our lifes are very much similiar to Americans and Brits in alot of espects.
Even better in alot of ways (Much less crime in Israel then in most western countries).
We've been living in here fighting for our survival for 57 years , and its still scary the thought off being surounded by all those arrab countries who hate our guts and wants us to die.
Which is why we made such a strong army ofcourse :)
Which is why we're not so comprimising as the world wants us to be, which is why we attacked first in 1967.
Which is why we dont have the privilage of caring about how our actions will look like to the rest of the world.

As much as I don't like americans on the net, as much as I think their president is an imbacile (only because of his words though) I still have to hand it to them, they're doing the dirty job for the rest of the world and us, no matter what interests they have.
He who saves my life, shall be my friend by default!

quote:In IDF soldiers are not getting orders to murder anyone, and if a soldier goes out of line he goes to jail! there are strict rules to IDF , and they got even stricter to the line where the soldier itself risk his life so idiots (again, nothing personal) like you won't get a chance to inflate situations and blur out bull in such huge quantities.
I suppose you didn't check out this link I posted?
Quotes from former IDF:
quote:There was an attack on 6 people here at ?443? (designation of our position, or our-held hilltop), 6 soldiers from the Corps of Engineers. Some terrorist arrived at a (our) checkpoint and killed 6. That evening we were rushed off to a room. Suddenly our squad commander came from some two-minute long briefing saying ?Listen?.we are doing?our action is a revenge. We are going to kill 6 Palestinian policemen somewhere, revenging our six they took down?. There were about 4 positions beyond our ?443? under the control of Palestinian policemen, and we were sent to each of these positions to ?liquidate? the Palestinian policemen there.

Our briefing was also about 2 minutes long, defining our action as a revenge, while I was still deliberating, asking ?what had they done?? ?Who are they?? The answer was: Palestinian policemen. On my question ?what did they do?? the answer was ?(that) there was a suspicion that the terrorist who killed our 6 came through that (Palestinian) checkpoint. A suspicion, but no concrete evidence. But I was told: it doesn?t matter; they took six of ours, and we are going to take six of theirs.
quote:Our APCs (armed personnel carriers) were cruising 24 hours a day close to buildings (in Jenin), waiting for kids to climb on them, trying to dislodge the top -mounted MG (machine gun) and to shoot them. We had fixed positions inside Jenin?s casbah, the APCs were on the streets, below us. They were moving continuously. We were expressly told that we were just waiting for someone to climb on an APC, and ordered to shoot to kill. We quickly understood that we weren?t expected to deal with armed people as no armed Palestinian would roam the streets with so many APCs around. They (our authorities) were looking for children or plain people daring to climb on an APC or on any other armored vehicle. We understood that from the talks with our officers.

After a day or two, a 12-year old kid climbed on one of the APCs. There were lots of guesses about his age. First they said he was 8, later, that he was 12. I don?t know. In any case he climbed on an APC and one of our sharpshooters killed him. I already mentioned, we were looking for kids. The neighboring company also had an incident with a kid or teenager, climbing an APC, who was also killed. Some of us said that this whole operation was unnecessary as its purpose was to kill kids, while others said that it was very good.

quote:And ask yourself "If what they say is true, why do they need to fake even 1 scene? if there is so much horror and massacar from the Israelis why do they need to bother so much with staging scenes?"

A fact you should know, the war zones are packed with camera man and photographers... so if something happens you can be sure it will be recorded in real time.
It's pretty simple actually, a foreign media company wants a quick easy "exclusive" story, they hire a bunch of Palestinians to fake it and it's done. No risk to their own cameramen, no destroyed equipment.
quote:Now you see? this is the main reason I'm saying you're an idiot, I'm telling you about a suicide bombing, and you're telling me nothing happened.
Ofcourse you don't know about the convoys who go through the gazza strip of all the Kassam rockets that are being delivered into the gazza strip, also it takes quite a while to restore everything back to laungh a massive suicide attack like they did few years back before we got into Janin and ed it up (I have no regrets about it to be honest been very quite in Israel since then and I enjoy living and breathing in 1 piece).
The bombings will continue until all the occupied territories are given up.

Do you have any source about the Kassam rockets?
I've read that Israel is blocking the Gaza borders from people and cargo. (except palm leaves for Israeli religious ceremonies)

quote:Not that I have a problem with it mate.
You seem to forget this isn't a discussion about who dies more, I have no doubt they are, and I'm fine with it, IDF is meant to defend Israelis, my own friend managed to arrest 4 terror squad , if he hadn't more Israelis would have died.

While they use their own ppl as shields and the humanity factor in IDF against its own soldiers.
So I wouldn't so surprised or even mention the fact they die more, since its pretty obvious.
Now go watch the movie again.
This is where your logic fails. You say Israel is defending, but also that more Palestinians die...
In order to be defense, Palestinians strike first, Israel kills the perpetrators. Unless the Palestinian attack was very ineffective then Israel can't kill more than they lose. And many attacks are suicide bombings!
It doesn't make sense, this isn't defending!

quote:You keep saying the goverement... well I can tell you this, Israelis have strong opinions and they say it whenever they can (As you can see in here) we're not idiot who vote for a puppet president that barely speak proper English.
Oh that's right, you guys vote for war criminals.
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All I can say is that you are thoroughly brainwashed (I can't really blame you...) and won't open your mind to simple facts and logic.
Also, I've noticed that you've presented many nice little stories and a few history lessons, but very little current facts or sources.

quote:Originally posted by FamineAm I the only one that sees the irony in this whole topic?


no, no your not

quote:
Actually, if I had to vote on the most racist state in existence, I would go with England...Spain ties for a close second.
I'd say Australia. WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY!!!!!!!1

Michal, my sources are not news papers, not internet or any other... "authentic source"
My sources are merly soldiers who I know and serve in there.
The same one you keep reffering as murderers.

YOu idiot, you don't even get it do you???
I don't read about it!!!! my friend tell me about what they are doign!
And they're not brainwashing me, or being brainwashed themselfs!!!
They're doing stuff in there, they're not soldiers, they're officers!

Who do you think you are coming here an claiming "I'm being brainwashed" ?!
By who ?! my friends? you god damn idiot! I'm not talking about media! I'm not talking about internet! you [CENSORED]ign moron! I'm talking about my friends!
And you keep giving me [CENSORED]ed up sourced from who knows where!
Everything I'm showing here is brought up to state something I already know, I didn't think of it becuase I read it somewhere!
I think what I do because I served in that army, and I have friends who still serve in that war zone and have been doing so for 5 years now!

You're the one brainwashed! you're the one taking your biased sources and single handed cases and base an entire line of thought on that.

As I said, and now I do mean to offend since you keep calling my friend murderes and you keep using all those poor kids who killded themselfs because of verious reasons of this reality where we have to serve as excuses and examples to your [CENSORED]ed up opinion!
You are an idiot my friend, a blind and brainwashed idiot!
IF you want to know what's going on here! come over here to those poor palastinians and visit them, after all, you didn't do anything to them, why would they hurt you right?
....
Sigh...


And as far as rascim, America is by far the most rascit country on earth..towords white ppl in some areas, towords black ppl in some places, towords jews and maxicans in some places.
And that source comes from verious ppl who live there, I never heard any american say otherwise.

quote:Originally posted by OkAnd as far as rascim, America is by far the most rascit country on earth..towords white ppl in some areas, towords black ppl in some places, towords jews and maxicans in some places.
And that source comes from verious ppl who live there, I never heard any american say otherwise.


Except for me. The whole reason you hear people in America talk about how bad racism is in the states is because the media makes such a big deal about it. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has taught Americans to hate themselves and so we naturally pick the worst about ourselves to tell to everyone else.

In truth, there is quite a bit of racism -- but there isn't anywhere near as much as there is in Europe. Not only that, but people in America generally don't act out on whatever racism they have. Sure, ask almost any American and he can tell you the last time he saw racism in the news or how he "knows" about the inherent racism in our political system, but that doesn't come anywhere near to the raw hatred I've experienced in many other countries.

You know racism isn't reserved for white ppl only?
If a black group beat up a white guy because he's white, that's rasicm too.

Btw, the world has be sprading hate and bad mouth Israel since the day it was made.
But you won't get alot of Israelis who'll tell you Israel sucks.
We keep the stuff we hate to ourselfs.
Its no one's buisness how we [CENSORED] ourselfs up... no one cares anyways.
The last thing we need is an idiot like Michal using some cripled man who aint getting help from the country to point out that Israel is wrong in the Pala-IL struggle.

quote:And as far as rascim, America is by far the most rascit country on earth..towords white ppl in some areas, towords black ppl in some places, towords jews and maxicans in some places.
And that source comes from verious ppl who live there, I never heard any american say otherwise.
That's totally not true, racism may be prevalent in the people(in certain areas) but the government is not racist at all compared to Israel.
Israel has many official laws and policies are racist.
For example, only Orthodox Jewish weddings (also marriages done outside of Israel) are recognized by the state. Foreign (non-Jewish) workers are often forced to sign contracts stating that they will not have sex with Israeli women. If a Jew (from outside Israel) converts to Christianity or Islam it is no longer possible for them to get automatic citizenship in Israel.

Also, the quotes I presented previously represents some of the attitudes of Israeli leaders.
Could you imagine if president Bush said something like this against African Americans, or Jews? There would be huge public uproar, he would be impeached!

quote:Michal, my sources are not news papers, not internet or any other... "authentic source"
My sources are merly soldiers who I know and serve in there.
The same one you keep reffering as murderers.

YOu idiot, you don't even get it do you???
I don't read about it!!!! my friend tell me about what they are doign!
And they're not brainwashing me, or being brainwashed themselfs!!!
They're doing stuff in there, they're not soldiers, they're officers!

Who do you think you are coming here an claiming "I'm being brainwashed" ?!
By who ?! my friends? you god damn idiot! I'm not talking about media! I'm not talking about internet! you ign moron! I'm talking about my friends!
And you keep giving me ed up sourced from who knows where!
Everything I'm showing here is brought up to state something I already know, I didn't think of it becuase I read it somewhere!
I think what I do because I served in that army, and I have friends who still serve in that war zone and have been doing so for 5 years now!
Then I suppose you know everyone in the IDF, right? These war crimes and atrocities happen, whether you've heard of it or witnessed it first hand or not.
Many American soldiers go to Iraq and we all know that war crimes are committed there. But how many are actually involved, and of those who are, how many would actually speak out about it?
You think everyone would be eager to tell you that they're a war criminal? You think they have no fear of repercussions? (you know, since the IDF is so strict on the matter)
It may be a small percentage that's involved but it's significant because it does happen on a regular basis.

damnit stop your talking and let me keep eating that damn palestinian baby ffs.

And ofcourse you know it more then me..
Because you're in touch with so many Israeli soldiers.

I'm not even going to respond on that jewish comment.
Comparing the united states to Israel when it comes to immigration rules is a joke.
You want to talk about bull[CENSORED] like that? how about one of governers in the US said it himself (surprise surprise he's in the opposition) "How come the Israeli IDF can arrange a transport of houndrad of thousands of ethiupians to come to Israel from Africa, but the US can't manage to transport their own cidizens from their own land to another land" that was said about the "great" treatment the ppl of Louisiana.
And I heard ppl saying "Those rascist americans" and how they ignored them because they are mostly black.

But this again isn't a race for who's more racist, you don't even know the meaning of racist you ignorant piece of [CENSORED], when you're grandma will be able to tell you about how she passed by a building with ash coming out of it, and a strange smell came out, only later to find out her parents were burned there.
When you're grandfather will be able to tell you about how he had to stick an axe in a nazi's head at the age of 14 because he wanted to shoot him for being jewish.

A nation that comes out of those horrors cannot be expected to create an army that does the same.
The nature of jews is a passive one, the main reason for the whole holocuast to go so far.
We have strict rules against unhuman acts and you and your [CENSORED]ed up sources and your twisted opinions can go to hell.

Just an example:
1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001


this is a part of what you sent me, for you it sounds like such a racist statement, which would be true.
But he was talking about THE TERRORISTS!!!!! you god damn idiot!
It is THAT easy to brainwash idiots like you who read what they are shown and believe what they want.

And here you are so strong with your opinion who's based on nothing more then bull[CENSORED], telling ME! that MY sources are not qualified but yours ARE??
Who the [CENSORED] are you? the all knowing and all seeing eye?
Get a grip, know your place in the world, you're nothing more then a little piece of crap who try to make himself feel better by choosing a minorety and supporting it based on some stuff you read about.
Your sources are crap and will continue to be crap, if you really really cared you would have done something to help the situation.
I gave 3 years of my life to help what I believe in, and I'll give 1 month a year more 'till I'm 45.
What the hell did you give to contribute other then supporting terrorisem without even knowing it? huh?

Your govrement is doing much wrost things then we ever thought of doing, you're sending your own ppl to die out there (mostly criminals and dispensable ppl ey?).
So who cares if they die right? as long as America looks good, but that doesnt matter because you have the option of doing what you want, and talking crap like you do.

The man who guard Israel are not dispensable , they are ordinary ppl who were taken out of their lifes for a 3 years halt that would change their lifes forever.
If you think that a nation will let the govrement to do that without a proper reason , if you think Israelis can be blind to the things their sons do , then you're more then the idiot I thought you were.

You're talking crap, you're posting bull[CENSORED] and actualy helping me of showing how much crap is in your head.
Bluring crap like you do is easy, suffering the result of that crap is much harder, not to mention clean after it.

I don't presume to know what is happening in America, I only know what ppl from there told me, and I won't spread bull[CENSORED] and form an opinion.
I think americans are mostly idiots for 1 reason and 1 reason only, I see how easly you're influenced, and not just in this subject.

But I won't go around and argue about its being true or not, it might be true, it might not be.
I'm not there, so I don't know, I can only assume, not asses the situation and form a solid opinion.

Just 1 last fact you seem to ignore, There are the terrorists and there are the palastinians, seperate the both, don't speak on both as one, though the line is blured and for you they are 1.
They are not.
Get that into your thick head and try to understand when am I talking about which.

I keep reading those quotes, its amazing how its twisted.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969


Golda Maier was the first woman to be prime minister, she was a holocuast surviver herself.

What she said in those quotes is actualy true.
We had no one to return it to, jordan and egypt wouldn't accept them back. (It was there's before the occupation in 1967)

And the second comment is also true,and a very famous one by her as well, its being tought in officers school in the army as a part of this place's history. before there UN devided this land to palastine and Israel.
It was just palastine and jews, arrabs and british ppl were living here.
Arrabs and jews were called palastains as well, and Golda Mair considered herself a palastinian too.
So she said what she said, I could probably go on and tell you what each of those comments meant, some of them might even be that harsh, there are always some extremists in the ranks who say stupid things, but most of them are WAYYYY out of context as I showed you in this cases.
And I'm no history expert I just happen to know a thing or too that you don't about what my own country.

I just keep reading and reading and I understand now how you see things, if I didn't know what I do, I would think the same, I guess that for the weak minded its just a matter of who gets there first, or what better sources you get.
I'm not sure if there's a place like this to counter it.
A place to show you the things that been said in all those years that they tried to [CENSORED]ing ELIMINATE us, or how they used to teach their children math :
"5 zionists are standing infront of a shooting squade, if you shoot 3 of them how many have you got left?"

I have neighbor, he lives next door to me, he's pretty old, I use to fix his grandson's computer alot (he lives with him for some reason), and he always tells me war stories, he was combat soldier in the kadesh war and I think also in the 6 days war.
And he they got to one of their bases and some villages and he found their posters who describe us as devils with horns, and also some books that he brought back, and that is what he saw in there.
'Till today actualy, not so long ago they found a camp in the west bank that was dedicated to train 10-15 years old kids to become terrorists and they kept chanting "Death to all Israel" etc etc... they even took a video of it they were THAT proud.

I could go on and on, but that doesnt matter, no more space in your head, I guess someone got their first ey.
Some ppl are able to use their commons sense, some don't I wouldn't believe anyone if they told me the serbs just decided to get some more territory one day and started massacring, since it doesnt make sense, a nation just dont go berserk today without a reason.
You don't go to war without a reason , you dont send your sons and doughters to risk their lifes for no reason, in war NO one winners and you should know that, so think before you acccuse anyone for anything.

quote:Originally posted by MichalCould you imagine if president Bush said something like this against African Americans, or Jews? There would be huge public uproar, he would be impeached!
just like the massive punishment prince harry got for wearing the swastika handband? ;o





Ok, stop spamming you damn afsanai vatik.

"...US Congressional leaders and the two major Presidential candidates pledged unconditional support to Israel, evoking the bloodthirsty cheers of investment brokers, dentists, doctors, lawyers ? the cream of the cream of American Jewish society. ?The cause of Israel is the cause of America ? rings out from the mouth of every candidate as the Israelis bulldoze homes and snipers shoot small girls on their way to buy candy. Its almost as if Sharon wanted to demonstrate the power of the ...."


Words are very powerfull, be carefull of them.
That was written in a very dramatic fashion and will effect anyone very easly.
But I know what's going on there, I know the rules my friends are under.
They enforce them as being officers, and I know how they were trained and how much pressure is being put on them to avoid even a soldier aiming a gun if not needed.

This scene that is so dramaticly discribed here, is a man using his talent and influence to spread the twisted truth!

Here's another article by him that you should enjoy, another occupation army that you are farmiliar with.
http://www.rebelion.org/petras/english/031223saddam.htm

This man seems to live on the underdog's expanse, I have more respect to a terrorist then to him.

quote:Originally posted by Ok
First one is our nuclear ability, being there or not, it doesnt really matter, bombing any of the countries around us, means us dying along with them (Israel is VERY small and VERY close to its enemies), so its not really an option now is it, Israelis aren't known for their suicidal desires.


Oh, really? I wonder why the USA is working on having a law that would legalize a pre-emptive nuclear attack against those who menace the US with nuclear technology. I'm so sure it's not for Iran!

I kinda lost you there Meandor , I have no idea what you wanted to say.
But I'll assume you just compared Israel to the US.
So I'll just state the obvious fact, the US is not close enough to an enemie.
They can bomb whoever they want without worring about them getting the blast effects too.
Israel however is a tiny country surounded with enemies close to it within the 50km range. some even less.

So its not an option for us, unless we're facing extermination (We did in 1973 btw)

quote:But this again isn't a race for who's more racist, you don't even know the meaning of racist you ignorant piece of , when you're grandma will be able to tell you about how she passed by a building with ash coming out of it, and a strange smell came out, only later to find out her parents were burned there.
When you're grandfather will be able to tell you about how he had to stick an axe in a nazi's head at the age of 14 because he wanted to shoot him for being jewish.

A nation that comes out of those horrors cannot be expected to create an army that does the same.
The nature of jews is a passive one, the main reason for the whole holocuast to go so far.
We have strict rules against unhuman acts and you and your ed up sources and your twisted opinions can go to hell.

My grandfather was with the 2nd Polish Army and Soviets as they swept west and liberated your people from the camps, he lost his vision due to shrapenel injury, so don't tell me about a "nation that comes out of horrors" because Poles know full well.
The difference is that your country has learned nothing from it.
quote:Your govrement is doing much wrost things then we ever thought of doing, you're sending your own ppl to die out there (mostly criminals and dispensable ppl ey?).
I don't know what you're talking about :s

quote:You don't go to war without a reason , you dont send your sons and doughters to risk their lifes for no reason, in war NO one winners and you should know that, so think before you acccuse anyone for anything.
It's true, there are always reasons for going to war, but the reasons aren't necessarily in the interest of the people.
Take the Iraq war for example, did it in any way benefit Americans or Iraqis? NO!
But Bush and company personally made a hell of a lot of money(while driving America $200 billion deeper into debt), and Israel got exactly what it wanted.
The government lied to push the people to war, you think it has never happened in Israel?

You are just like those American sheep who wave their flag and send their kids to war. They think America is fighting for freedom and democracy, just like you guys think you are fighting for your survival.

I found another fine quote from a younger Ariel Sharon:
quote:?I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, in an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956
Are you going to tell me he didn't express genocidal intentions? This sack of [CENSORED] is your prime minister now!
quote:just like the massive punishment prince harry got for wearing the swastika handband? ;o
Was prince Harry elected? Does he have any real power at all? Did he express any Nazi sentiment?

quote:So I'll just state the obvious fact, the US is not close enough to an enemie.
They can bomb whoever they want without worring about them getting the blast effects too.
Israel however is a tiny country surounded with enemies close to it within the 50km range. some even less.

So its not an option for us, unless we're facing extermination (We did in 1973 btw)
This is exactly why you get the US to fight your wars for you.

You know, this can go on forever, 'cos both your 'facts' simply boil down to word of mouth, 'recorded' history and opinion. The facts you both present cannot truly be acknowledged as such.

That's where you are wrong.
I heard it first hand from the soldiers he's talking about.
MY FRIENDS! not just soldiers I met.
If your friend is a part of something and tells you about it as a part of friends talk its much different then someone reading something that someone said and then someone recorded it and sent it to a website builder so he can post it on the net.

That's what pisses me off.
that idiot has no idea what he's talking about.
As I showed him all those quotes, unlike him, I don't deny there are few stupid politicians who say stupid things, but when it comes to actions, its much different.
And see how he goes through the timeline whenever he feels like it.
He keeps saying occupation although history specificly shows that we tried giving it back, he keeps saying conquerer's army, palastinian territory when history specificly shows that it was Jordanian and Egyptian territory.
He keeps ignoring everything that might put him out of balance.
Palastinians faking scenes infront of french media, quotes taken out of context when they actualy mean the opposite.
All that, doesnt matter to him, he will only look on the things that approov with his way of thinking.
I never denied that soldiers sometimes go out of hand, I never denied that sometimes kids are cought in the line of fire.

I never denied that, but he keeps on going as if he is 100% right and ignores EVERYTHING thrown at him.

As I said, for weak minded ppl its just a matter of who came there first.
Just like they had syrians believing Jews have horns on the top of the head in 1956.

That's why I'm so proud of my country and appreciate it, 'cause I'm protected from idiots like him.
I'm protected from everything anyone can put in his head, he's speaking of the poles as they helped jews, when the most infamous camp was in poland, when they ratted on the jews everywhere.

He's another idiot in the world and once upon a time it was a danger to my ppl.
But today, I can smile away, knownig the world wide interests are now the same as ours.
And idiots like him can whine and whine, along side to nazis calls that jews are trying to take over the world, along side to arrab calls that Israel should be whiped out the fact of the earth.
Because I'm here :) Israel is here, to stay.

And I feel fine knownig we're doing it and have been doing it while maintaining our human integrety, and not matter what he says I know its not true, because my friends are not murderers, I am not a murderer, I know the Israelis army because I was a part of it, Israel and the Israeli army is one, not seperate, the ppl in that army are the ones who also elect and shape the future of this country.
Unlike other armies when you find mostly criminals and black ppl and maxicans who's soul reason to be in there is because they had nothing to do in civil life.

This ends the discussion as much as I see it, there's no point to further explain since I can't show or say anything that will open his eyes.
I'm just hoping that my country has more intention of putting some effort in explaining to the world what's going on here if needed.
After all the world will get bored sometimes with other issues and start whining again about what's going on here.

quote:Originally posted by Michal
Did he express any Nazi sentiment?

oh, no, not at all.
i mean wearing a red handband with a white shpere in the middle of it, and a black swastika inside the white sphear - isnt nazi related at all.

gotta love you lefties.
(well atleast you didn't say he wanted to represent the ancient <???> tribe that a reversed swastika was their symbol bullshiet)

and what war did we get the US to fight for us (FOR us, not WITH us) anyway? there werent many times when the US have helped us at all, battle-wise.
please save the whole "let them fight for you" crap for yourself. already forgot your country simply gave in to hitler, and let his armade go through your country without any hesitations? haha.
dont know what about you, but in here the soldiers fight our wars, not brave 40 middle aged civilians.

OMG!!!
He's polish?!?!!?
Ok, this ends this discussion.
Would be much easier if someone told me he was polish.
A pole who hates Israel/Jews not the first I meet in Soldat you know :)

quote:Originally posted by OkOMG!!!...


hey hey hey what happened to your sig hu?

quote:Originally posted by OkOMG!!!
He's polish?!?!!?
Ok, this ends this discussion.

watch your mouth boy.. some poles are way cooler for most israelies.

I don't know why i'm posting here as this argument doesn't seem to stop. Just to say my thought I really don't know which side is 'more correct'. However, as I know this issue is serious and won't get solved by simply ignoring it, i've put my thoughts on this ongoing debate.

First of all, Ok, I see you are really passionate about the side you're taking. You are trying as you can to be polite but the emotion is quite strong for you refrain from swearing. I know what feeling... but it won't help. Not using such words is much better.

Second, I read Michal's in arguement that Israel, in defense, should have to sit back and only respond when assaulted. Hoever, I see little logic in this. Yes, preemptive strikes based on assumtions aren't right, but the fact that Israel was a target(during the wars with various other Arab countries) and still is(evidence supporting it overwhelmes) underminds the thought that self defense can only be made after getting attacked. That's like a police officer waiting for the shot to be fired from a criminal that is aiming at him/her.

Third, speaking quite frankly I think you would have to admit there is at least some hate between the Palestinians the Israelies. Nationalities with bad histories between them and fighting each other over the existence of their homeland have a tendency to hate the opposing county's people.

So you can't just say the IDF and the barrier being built is purely on the defense or that all Palestinians only want their land back and will stop fighting when given it(even if the most did, there would still be harassing terrorists groups intervening Israel's peace - nearly the same situation as now). Feelings, particularly the ones with long histories, is embedded with the people. It is usually senseless, and may be hidden politically, but there's no denying it.

In the end, I guess I favor Israel's opinions more, though that does not mean I favor wiping any nation off the planet.

AMERICA ONLY ACTS WHEN ITS CONTROL IS BEING QUESTIONED!!!!11
Not true, just something I picked up on SBS yesterday. Does anyone in their young days remember stretching their eyes back and pretend to be Chinese? Well go to China and you'll see the little Chinese kids stretching their eyes wide open to pretend to be Western. Pointless really.
Anyway, just a more pointless thingymagick:
I doubt anyone here has said a racist joke before, even with out any cruel gestures towards other races. I know I have. This 'dude' i know at school is Asian, and we swap racist jokes at eachother just for fun.

YES, TELL ME HOW RETARDED AND FRANGJBIAGJIGNIGFOO I AM.

I promised myself I won't respond , but Green Barret's post kinda scretched a part needed to be scretched.
I just needed a sain part, and that's even before he said the last phrase.

I'll even go further and tell you there are wrose Israeli's do, and I know of some, everytime an Israeli soldier goes out of line, its automaticly in the news.
I then ask my friends of what they know of that, most of the time, you find the accusations to be true and the soldiers go to jail.
an example of that, is a few soldiers who humiliated a palastinian after they cought him trying to steal a car.

I'm sure there are few more scenes that happen and are not cought in action.
I have no doubt that ni that war our soldiers go out of line sometime, but when they do that means they break our own rules, and if they are cought by us they are punished.

A story:
4 years ago me and all of my friend were just young soldiers, that means you're just an 19 years old kid with a gun in your hand and are forced to grow up fast.
My friend once called me, when he was in an ambush , they took over a palastinian building, in that building there were alot of computers, top of the line.
He told me about how some of his friends are thinking of taking some HD's and so from them.
He told me he's thinking of taking some himself, he also told me that his commander had a conversation with the platune about this same subject, he asked them to to show maturity and understanding and to not take anything that does not belong to them.

3 weeks later he came home, and told me the rest, apperently he decided not to take anything since its goes against his principles and the reason he's there in the first place.
He also told me some of his friends did take some parts, before they left the building his commander ordered everyone to open their kitbags for inspection, they did, some soldier got cut and were forced to put the parts back in place, and suffer punishment.

Today that friend of mine commands 100 men, he exalted in every course he took and his promotion was much shorter then the usual promotion line.

I also found the little notebook I got when I was recruited its called "Behaviour rules for IDF soldiers", you get that before they even decide where you'll go.
I can't tell you exactly what it says but I can tell you the last pharagraph:

Soldier, Remember!
You must do your military job in determination, while maintaining human dignity.
In any matter of doubt, consult the acting commander

There are so many specific rules that disallow everything that he accuse us of doing on daily bases.
You see, its just like crime in civil life, there is a police that takes care of criminals only in the army, the same guy who is your boss also act as a field police and make sure you don't break the rules.

There are no such things in the palastinian govrement, we have to arrest the ones who hurt us, not they, they dont do that, they just act as if they do, I don't even know if they can ...

In short, I'm well aware that there are defects in our ranks , but we are acting to improve ourselfs, we're fighting each other as well to maintain the balance to make sure the hate doenst takes over.
I can assure you none of my friends, and none of my family want to full distruction of the Palastinian ppl, I also believe not all of them want us dead as well.
I also know some Israelis do want that, but its not the majority and its not even close.

Fact is, as much as the world would like to believe, Israel wants peace, we're sick of war, we made this country because we're sick of war.
I am very passionate , but I still think he's an idiot, I could say imbacile, wisdom is the understanding of how much you don't know, he obviously lacks that ability.
And I'm glad there are ppl who understand that waiting to get a documanted reason to defend yourself sometimes means your death.

You don't need IL-Pala sstrugle to do that, just go check the Police protocols in your city.

quote:Originally posted by OkI kinda lost you there Meandor , I have no idea what you wanted to say.
But I'll assume you just compared Israel to the US.
So I'll just state the obvious fact, the US is not close enough to an enemie.
They can bomb whoever they want without worring about them getting the blast effects too.
Israel however is a tiny country surounded with enemies close to it within the 50km range. some even less.

So its not an option for us, unless we're facing extermination (We did in 1973 btw)


I'm saying that the US is preparing for a nuclear attack against Iran, which declaredly is an enemy of Israel, and is far more than 50km away.

quote:oh, no, not at all.
i mean wearing a red handband with a white shpere in the middle of it, and a black swastika inside the white sphear - isnt nazi related at all.

gotta love you lefties.
(well atleast you didn't say he wanted to represent the ancient <???> tribe that a reversed swastika was their symbol bullshiet)

I asked if he expressed any Nazi sentiment...
quote:Sentiment: A thought, view, or attitude, especially one based mainly on emotion instead of reason
It was just a costume, a poor choice of costume for a prince, though.

quote:and what war did we get the US to fight for us (FOR us, not WITH us) anyway? there werent many times when the US have helped us at all, battle-wise.
Since 1967 the US has donated $84,854,827,200 to Israel, and undoubtedly more in less official ways...
But America is fighting Israel's war in Iraq right now, and soon it will expand to Syria and Iran.
This war didn't help Americans or Iraqis, but Israel did lose one of it's sworn enemies... (Not to mention I've heard of a Mosul-Haifa pipeline...)
Not surprisingly, Israel and the American Jewish lobby pushed for this war.
quote:please save the whole "let them fight for you" crap for yourself. already forgot your country simply gave in to hitler, and let his armade go through your country without any hesitations? haha.
dont know what about you, but in here the soldiers fight our wars, not brave 40 middle aged civilians.

Hmmm... I don't know what they teach you guys in history class (*cough*brainwashing*cough*) but I guess it's my turn to give you a history lesson ;]

Well first of all, Poland was invaded by Germany (the most technologically advanced army) and some days later, Russia (the largest army). Any idiot can realize that these are impossible odds, even 'mighty Israel' would have crumbled... Not to mention that our allies did nothing. (You should also note that Germany signed a non-agression pact with Poland 5 years prior, so Poland wasn't prepared at all)
Nevertheless, Poland went to war.
Our forces fought the Germans, but we were no match for the previously unheard of 'Blitzkrieg' tactics, and of course there were the Russians who just came in huge numbers...
Our Soldiers fought, and when more people were needed, every man between 15 and 50 went, even prisoners in jail were released to go and fight.
I don't know how you got the idea that we "simply gave in" but it's not true. We fought to the end, and contrary to popular myth, never surrendered as a nation.

Anyways, I could go on and on (like some people ;]) but I won't. If you're interested you can always have a read here.

quote:Originally posted by Meandor
I'm saying that the US is preparing for a nuclear attack against Iran, which declaredly is an enemy of Israel, and is far more than 50km away.

Yes, the evidence is mounting... But I think Syria will be attacked first (not a nuclear attack though).

- $84,854,827,200.
- America is fighting Israel's war in Iraq right now, and soon it will expand to Syria and Iran.
- This war didn't help Americans or Iraqis, but Israel did lose one of it's sworn enemies...
- Yes, the evidence is mounting... But I think Syria will be attacked first (not a nuclear attack though).

":D"
I can't think of anything better to express my thoughts about you atm.

If you think you're in a position to know anything you're not suposed to know, they again ":D".
So cute, so naive.
I shall quote a very wise comment by some very wise artists whom I adore :)

"We're [CENSORED]s! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid [CENSORED]s. and the likes of Michal are pussies. And the terrorists are [CENSORED]s. Pussies don't like [CENSORED]s, because pussies get [CENSORED]ed by [CENSORED]s. But [CENSORED]s also [CENSORED] [CENSORED]s: [CENSORED]s that just want to [CENSORED] on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with [CENSORED]s their way. But the only thing that can [CENSORED] an [CENSORED] is a [CENSORED], with some balls. The problem with [CENSORED]s is: they [CENSORED] too much or [CENSORED] when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of [CENSORED] that they become [CENSORED]s themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us [CENSORED] this [CENSORED]s, we're going to have our [CENSORED]s and pussies all covered in [CENSORED]! "

Listen to those wise wise words, you [CENSORED]ing pussy.

I hope you enjoyed the cartoon fest, if you have a bit of sense you'll know which one is any of them
Or you can read it properly here :)
http://www.freewebs.com/gummibears/formichal.GIF

lmao...such a great quote. Perfect reply.

Shouldn't you guys be out saving the world instead of posting on the internet?
GO! YOUR PLANET NEEDS YOU!

quote:Originally posted by Ok- $84,854,827,200.
- America is fighting Israel's war in Iraq right now, and soon it will expand to Syria and Iran.
- This war didn't help Americans or Iraqis, but Israel did lose one of it's sworn enemies...
- Yes, the evidence is mounting... But I think Syria will be attacked first (not a nuclear attack though).

":D"
I can't think of anything better to express my thoughts about you atm.

If you think you're in a position to know anything you're not suposed to know, they again ":D".
So cute, so naive.
I shall quote a very wise comment by some very wise artists whom I adore :)

"We're [CENSORED]s! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid [CENSORED]s. and the likes of Michal are pussies. And the terrorists are [CENSORED]s. Pussies don't like [CENSORED]s, because pussies get [CENSORED]ed by [CENSORED]s. But [CENSORED]s also [CENSORED] [CENSORED]s: [CENSORED]s that just want to [CENSORED] on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with [CENSORED]s their way. But the only thing that can [CENSORED] an [CENSORED] is a [CENSORED], with some balls. The problem with [CENSORED]s is: they [CENSORED] too much or [CENSORED] when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of [CENSORED] that they become [CENSORED]s themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us [CENSORED] this [CENSORED]s, we're going to have our [CENSORED]s and pussies all covered in [CENSORED]! "

Listen to those wise wise words, you [CENSORED]ing pussy.

I hope you enjoyed the cartoon fest, if you have a bit of sense you'll know which one is any of them
Or you can read it properly here :)
http://www.freewebs.com/gummibears/formichal.GIF

mmmm OK shows his true level of maturity :P

...link isn't working for me :s

This was taken from a very mature movie that shows a very serious political problem in a humoristic way.
Go watch "Team America - World Police" and enlighten yourself.

In fact, watch Southpark, those briliant ppl are my gods when it comes to displaying morons like you and how they [CENSORED] the world over.

The people that make south park just make fun of everybody, they make funny stuff but really all it is is making fun of anything and everything, the left or the right, straight or [CENSORED], religious or athiest.
quote:Shouldn't you guys be out saving the world instead of posting on the internet?
GO! YOUR PLANET NEEDS YOU!
:P

You can always make fun of everybody.
They take the extreme and show how [CENSORED]ed up we all are in a way.

Even in that movie, they made fun of the americans and how they just go in a place and [CENSORED] it all together by mistake for no good reason.
At the same time, they laughed at all those hollywood morons who sit back with all their money making all kind of finger pointing at america and their hostile acts towords those poor terrorists.
I remember seeing a documantry about Brad Pit, went all the way to africa to visit 2 sisters, 1 of them had AIDS.
He went there visiting them, one of them was a very smart young girl , in order to pay for school and stuff for school she needed something about 10$, at the end of the documantry they said the girls still hope they'll get the money somehow, he didn't donate it.
Hell he could have paid for the whole village.
But then he'll feel bad about not being able to help the rest, so he didn't help at all.

When it comes to it, talking is worth [CENSORED]e.
All this grudge and words of hate againt action that happen in other parts of the world.
Only come from a need of some sort, to feel better about yourself, if one actualy cares, he will come here and help, or atleast visit.
In this case, I kinda have this hunch, just a hunch that Michal doest care much for jews in general , not just Israel.

I heard from poles themselfs about hate being transfared through the ages.
Not even nazis, just specific hate against jews that is just expressed in words and a simple dislike of them.

One of them is in my radio staff...

I guess that my final point in all of this thread, is not really if he's right or not, 'cause that cannot be esablished here, or anywhere over the net.
You need to be here in order to establish that.

My point is just , don't be a parasite on the poor and the needed just to satisfy your selfish conscience.

No matter what I hear or see on T.V I will not express my opinion as if its certin, I will not make accusations towords one of the sides.
Either I go there to check by myself, talk to both sides and account both of them as equals.
Then try to help to those who need help by my own standards.

Without all that, my opinion remain as opinions, I will not accuse or blame anyone and especialy won't argue with them about what's going on in their own backyard while sitting in my safe home in another "world".

You think they need help? come and help, otherwise, stfu.
Its THAT simple for you.

Ok, you seem to be angry. But at Whom?!!
DUM DUM DUMMMMM!

quote:In this case, I kinda have this hunch, just a hunch that Michal doest care much for jews in general , not just Israel.

I heard from poles themselfs about hate being transfared through the ages.
Not even nazis, just specific hate against jews that is just expressed in words and a simple dislike of them.
No, I have nothing personal against Jews or people of any other race or religion. Growing up in Canada I've had the opportunity to meet people of pretty much every race and religion and I know that generalizations are rarely if ever true.

I just have a problem with genocide, human rights violations, Geneva convention violations, etc. no matter who commits it.

Wait so say your piont without all the senseless rambling Ok.. ok?

quote:Originally posted by MichalI just have a problem with genocide, human rights violations, Geneva convention violations, etc. no matter who commits it.

suffer quietly

quote:Originally posted by ?Wait so say your piont without all the senseless rambling Ok.. ok?


Lets see, I'll try my best to summerize (god knows I'm not good at it).

1. Michal's opinion is based on false information, brainwash, and selfish desire to feel good about himself.

2. Since he has no intention of helping in any real way, and is far from knowing the truth, his opinion is no more concrete then water.

3. Presuming to know more about someone's backyard then he does , when you never been there is a pure sign of ignorance.

quote:Since he has no intention of helping in any real way, and is far from knowing the truth, his opinion is no more concrete then water.
Well, the first step to helping is education.
If every American knew the facts about Israel, support (financial and otherwise) would diminish very quickly and Israel would be forced to behave.

'cause obviously you know better than the government.

hahah holy [CENSORED] this is the funniest page in history!
i bet michal will have a hard-on while browing there.

beginning of the page says:
"Just a few things you can quote me on.. I'm just setting things straight.. Let there be no illusions.
and later on comes this pic;
[IMAGE]
i could fake a pic with ms paint, and it will look much less fake than that. ;p
hahahahahahah atleast our "propoganda" is solid.

A bit late now, all I can say is poor you, you should not care to "educate" on the larger basis because it's just a waste of time, you can explain to the individuals that you catch spreading lies.
Because most of us don't care, and some of us would think you're an over patriotic truth enforcing psychopath, which with all these topics about israel on god knows how many forums, i suppose you are :o
Really, let's stop it, those who want to know the way of the israel, will come to you, since it's pretty obvious who to come to about israel, you made your point.

Outcast, I don't think it's wise to let people think what they want to think on a topic such as this. There needs to be discussion even if people don't want to listen to eachother. On the other hand, this discussion ended way back on the second page.

quote:Originally posted by OutcastA bit late now, all I can say is poor you, you should not care to "educate" on the larger basis because it's just a waste of time, you can explain to the individuals that you catch spreading lies.
Because most of us don't care, and some of us would think you're an over patriotic truth enforcing psychopath, which with all these topics about israel on god knows how many forums, i suppose you are :o
Really, let's stop it, those who want to know the way of the israel, will come to you, since it's pretty obvious who to come to about israel, you made your point.

Well I'd get what you mean if I was spamming on this subject all over the forums, or if I had it in my avatar or sig. But really, it's limited to this thread and no one's being forced to read it, anyone who wants to ignore it is free to do so.

There is this hidden pleasure of saying "I don't care" about subjects there are being discussed heavly.
Its like you see too sides who are argueing passionatly about something they care about.
Then someone comes in and says "Oh you should stop fighting, its useless, you are stupid by fighting each other"

Then the person who says it looks so much wiser to the weak minded, and he feels better about himself not being a part of this hostile argument.

But for other not so weak minded ppl its obvious that comments like Outcast made here are as usefull as a blank post of "-----"
It did not controbute into this discussion whever to direct it somewhere, ot to stop it.
All he did here is put his name in this thread along with the neutral and selfish statement of "I don't care".

I bet you would if your mother would have been blown up to pieces.

P.S:
Just wanted to comment about this page:
http://nomadsnet.com/archives/000106.html

It doesnt take an expert to see atleast 2 of those pictures are photoshop made.
Even the one with the soldier holding a gun near the woman and he 2 kids, if you look at it carefully you see he was aiming it somewhere else, not them. probably another fire exchange betwin terrorists and the IDF.
they all happen inside the city , no better shield then a human shield the Hamas's theory.

For you Superkill, its pointelss, 2 pages ago it was obvious to me that no matter what you show him, he will ignore and dismiss it.
For him it doesnt matter if there are 2 fake pictures that obvious even for him, his mind ignores that and puts it aside and choose to consentrate on the others who can pass for real.
He never asks himself "why fake anything is the truth is there"

Jesus Christ, this thread is still going?

Yes and sadly it rerpoduces by budding so watch out!

quote:Originally posted by Ok
For you Superkill, its pointelss, 2 pages ago it was obvious to me that no matter what you show him, he will ignore and dismiss it.
uhm.. i wasnt really planning to influent anyone's mind with showing that site, it was just funny shiz.

Better to not care then care about things too much, it leaves room for things of a bit greater importance then your country shown in good light, and yes there's been other israel discussions by Ok, and on more then only this forum. You should think about this passion of yours to care about unimportant(not all, but still) things and make huge debates out of them when it's completely unneccesary, even if presented by a simple solution, resolve, or option.

Also, you can stop forcing us your own visions of truth, what you care about, and what you want us to understand. Maybe it's only me and my country, but these completely random crap(literally) topics you're giving out lately, don't you have friends? I know that is cliche and I know that you do, but really, you have to bond with unknown people about completely random events? For god sakes why, for the sake of discussion? Well, have fun discussing this people it won't ever end. Ok started it for a reason to show everyone how good he is at being a good israeli patriot, and you can't prove him wrong no matter how hard you try. He will always find some thing you said wrong, concentrate on it and write a whole esey, meaning, the thread gets to this point as it always does - Mostly off topic, only Ok remains to fight countless forum wiseasses to show them he can find something in what they've written to prove them wrong in some way, which is mostly a LONG way.

I'll now retire from this topic, which is the smart thing to do, unless you're squal. But even he gave up on Ok :o

quote:Originally posted by frogboyJesus Christ, this thread is still going?

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As I said , attention seeker.

Now back on topic, I'm currently on the phone with that friend of mine.
I sent him the pallywood bid, and he sent me this:
http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1WZE0PVM4OCDL2VH227Q4TWFP4

This show was in palastinian T.V, it was shown in their prime time which is 18:00PM.
Its no big deal really, its pretty well known that they consider it a privilage to be Shahids, the less educated among them that is, which is the mass majority.
His cousin translated it for him since he knows arrabic, but it into hebrew, so I translated it to English, here it is:

Interviewer: You talked about the shahda as a beautifull thing, do you think its beautifull?

Girl-1: The shahada is very very beautifull, all human beings wish for it.
What can be better then reaching heaven?

Interviewer: What is better? peace with full rights to the palastinian ppl or the shahada?

Girl-1: The shahada. I will get my right after I'll be a shahid because we wont stay kids forever
Interviewer: Ok, yusra (Girl-2's name), do you agree with those things?

Girl-2: Well obviously the shahada is a good thing, because we don't want this world, we want the next world (the after life), what will be good for us isn't this world, its the next world.
This is why palastinian teenagers arn't like other teenagers, they have a hot blood so ofcourse they prefer the shahada because they are palastinians, the kids of palastine have embrased the idea that this is shahada and that death in shahada is a good thing.
Every kid around 12yo for example will say "God please give me shahada".


Both girls are 11yo, if you don't believe me, you can always ask an arrab speaker to translate it for you.
It could be fake who knows, but it uneeded really, they are very proud of that mentality and present it to everyone who asks (thus its displayed in 18:00PM's prime time).


Also regarding the Pallywood, Michal you remember your theory about the why they faked it? so they wont have to risk their equipments and such? and by that ofcourse you excused your mind from absorbing that "propoganda".
Now tell me, how come they can photo the soldiers when they are hostile so close to their faces they almost tuch the screen. yet they bother themselfs with staging a scene while being myles away from them.

You see, you don't need propoganada when the truth is displayed as pride by the enemie itself.

Again, I'm not presuming to say all palastinians think like this, but its enough to pass on the hate and maintaining the hostility , which eventualy is what the terrorists want.


P.S: I realize this isn't the best place to discuss subjects like this due to the level of maturity around here. but if you ignore them they'll just get bored an leave.

quote:Originally posted by Milkman Danquote:Originally posted by frogboyJesus Christ, this thread is still going?

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LOL. Thanks Jesus. You have enlightened me.

quote:Also regarding the Pallywood, Michal you remember your theory about the why they faked it? so they wont have to risk their equipments and such? and by that ofcourse you excused your mind from absorbing that "propoganda".
Now tell me, how come they can photo the soldiers when they are hostile so close to their faces they almost tuch the screen. yet they bother themselfs with staging a scene while being myles away from them.
I said this:
quote:It's pretty simple actually, a foreign media company wants a quick easy "exclusive" story, they hire a bunch of Palestinians to fake it and it's done. No risk to their own cameramen, no destroyed equipment.
The main reason for faking it isn't danger. The media company does it so they get a story that nobody else has, this will sell them many more tapes and reports than a story that is covered by a few other media sources.

And that ofcourse makes everything you read and hear very trusting ey.
Espacialy the data you "have" that not even Israeli Soldiers in the inteligence core know ^_^

That said ofcourse after completly ignoring another piece of information that you can easly confirm.
Maybe you need more time to find an excuse for that ?

quote:And that ofcourse makes everything you read and hear very trusting ey.
Well, you can't believe everything you hear, but chances are if a story is covered by a few sources in pretty much the same way, then it can be verified.
quote:Espacialy the data you "have" that not even Israeli Soldiers in the inteligence core know ^_^
hmm? Like what?
quote:That said ofcourse after completly ignoring another piece of information that you can easly confirm.
Maybe you need more time to find an excuse for that ?
Err.. are you talking about the pictures on that site, or the interview thing?

For the pictures, yes there are some obvious misinterpretations and possibly some fakes, but there are many photos out there which are very difficult to confuse...

As for the interview thing, I'm not sure I get your point, but I think it is that most Palestinians want to remain "less educated"
Well first of all, I wouldn't take the opinions of two 12 year old girls as representatives of all Palestinians. Secondly, this type of mentality is actually quite common all over the world, in rural America you have "proud rednecks" and around here we have the "gangstas". Ignorance is bliss after all, but it's no excuse.
But I don't think this attitude is as common as you think in Palestinians. After all, if it was, would they have a prime-time show about it to inform other Palestinians? Shouldn't they already know if the majority are like that?

Holly crap, you seriously don't get it?
You have 2 young girls who say with a smile on their faces that they prefer to die as shahids rather then have peace with all rights to themeselfs.
How do you think they got it in their heads?!
Its on [CENSORED]ing prime time! when every little kid can see it and be influenced by it!
And you're comparing it to rednecks?!?!!?
I never heard of any rednecks who prefer to blow themselfs up and kill dozens of ppl in the proccess inorder to achieve their right to go to heaven!

And if one will be found, he will be dealt with properly! not pitty on and be provided with help an encouragment!

And you keep missing the point, so many fake sources... WHY? why do they need to do that?
And how many of what you saw and read is fake? who knows?
You keep excusing EVERYTHING that might ruin your theory! I'm starting to think that the only real way you'll get it is if you'll be in a bus watching the terrorist's face before he blows you to peices.

quote:"But I don't think this attitude is as common as you think in Palestinians. After all, if it was, would they have a prime-time show about it to inform other Palestinians? Shouldn't they already know if the majority are like that?"

That's the difference my dear friend, I don't think, I know.
Because I don't read about it thousands of myles away, I hear it from the ppl who are in there every day, risking their lifes while you make up all of this [CENSORED].

Funny ey, when it comes to them everything is just an exception, when it comes to what u read about us, its a clear representative of all the Israelis and how they conduct themselfs in there, and if its fake, oh well just move on to the next one.

When, when will you open your eyes...

BUT IT'S TRUE!
Everyone know all Isrealis smoke weed in the morning. WITH HITLER!
P.S. Which one is searching for a homeland again?