I was wondering what people thought about the knife.

Obviously there has been a significant increase of knife users since the LAW got nerfed. So much so in fact that many people use it as their primary weapon.

Ideas that have come up are...

Implimenting a nade like charge onto the knife. If I read correctly, the longer you hold down the key, the more damage it does when you throw it.

Removing instagib status on throw and making it do high damage, while keeping instagib status on poking with the knife.

Making it so that LAW can compete with the knife by somehow tweaking the LAW.

Any other thoughts?

sometimes i got more kills with a knife than i got with a primary weapon.
So i really agree on the thing where the longer you press the key the harder you throw , that would balance the secondary weapons again.
One thing is for shure , almoast everyone uses knife now. I used to have more kills with LAW than with knife , at this time i'm alot faster with knife than i am with LAW. By the time a LAW fires i already got my knife back out of his body(haha ,if i hit ofcourse :D ).

Grtz , DePhille

i have to dissagree on the "balancing weapons" part, for several reasons:
1. if you just make the law more reliable (start up time always the same) (no invisible bullets) more people will come back to it

2. if you make the knife harder to use, than most people will just float right over to the soccom and then you will need to nerf that to, than everyone has a chainsaw, ner[CENSORED]e for all secondarys

3. the knife has a very limited range, so think of the secondarys (when they are perfected) as a square, the law pwns the chainsaw, the chainsaw pwns the uhh... the uhhh... soccom?, the soccom pwns the knife, and the knife pwns the law (somehow) the chainsaw is more usefull on flaggers when you chase them down, and other people with primarys (if you are good)

i highly doubt that nerfing is a good solution

Knife beats all secondaries, LAW beats every secondary except the knife. And there are no long-range battles in Soldat (no serious ones anyway) so knife is the king of almost every situation. That's why it needs a slight tweak, so it won't be so easy to use.

And no, Chainsaw isn't good for chasing flag carriers.

Knife is fine as it is. Its the stupid nered Law that needs to be less nerfed. -_- When you hold down the button it makes the knife go farther with more accuracy. But only people who know how to use it well can make good timing moves and knife someone from away. It has always been my secondary, and I even used it as primary because its a nice quick kill sometimes ^^

Prime example of "DONTTOUCHMYKNIFE" posts :) - Demonic

I really like your idea for making a knife throw do high damage instead of an instantkill. Though if this was implemented there would surely be a lot of "Wtf!"'s as people got used to the concept. How strong were you thinking of making the damage? On par with two ruger body shots perhaps?

Chainsaw is good for public games with alot of people rushing through just to get the flag.
I've never seen the chainsaw in use in a clanwar.

Anyway , this is a knife topic:
Knife owns all like you said , DeMonIc, and changing the throw-strentgh would be an advantage for the LAW making them more even , though there are more serious balancing problems to solve in Soldat than the secondary weapons (except for the LAW , it has become very bad).

Grtz , DePhille

I'd like a nade-style thing with variable throw-strength, that's completely reasonable. However, a throw at full power HAS to be an instant kill (at least at its initial velocity -- of course air resistance and gravity could slow it down as always).

Secondaries are probably harder to balance than primaries...
This is what I have to say:
Make the Chainsaw one hit kill no matter what.
Make the knife do 3/4 damage to destroy the fact that you can use it as a primary.
Nerf the law a little more so people don't [CENSORED] it over the new knife, but keep the 1 hit kill.
Lessen the damage the socom does.

Meh, just my ideas...

F3nyx, we were thinking about doing that in the beta testing forums. I personally have no idea how the public would react to that. =|

Only thing I thing wrong with the knife is that you can throw it the SECOND you spawn. I think it should be delayed just like everything else.

I think it's a little overpowered compared to the saw. I like the instakill, in that it couples the saw's instakill, but I think that it should be strictly thrown or else it's better than the saw in almost every way.

My two cents...

haha I agree with mancer on this actually. I would kill somebody, and then on maps like Nuubia or Kampf they would respawn and instantly kill me with knife before I can even hurt them, this is kinda [CENSORED]ty IMHO. Good way to fix this is give it a little startup time.

The knife has to be tweaked, but not enough so that the majority of people wont switch to another secondary like in the case with LAW. My suggestion for knife is the nade startup charge time which is 1. Probably balance the knife to the other secondaries and 2. add a whole new dimension to knifing.

a-4-year-old the invisible law bullets actually are a advantage to the user of LAW, but that seriously has to be removed along with the invisible m79 bug.

I believe, that the knife is fine as it is now, and well if the law was less nerfed, none would whine about it.
It's just fine.

And you're French. So very French. :{D Ah the loathsome French. - Demonic

quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_Only thing I thing wrong with the knife is that you can throw it the SECOND you spawn. I think it should be delayed just like everything else.
Would a nade-style wind-up time be enough of a delay, in your opinion?

Not that type of delay, I think giving it a larger fire interval may be a good idea to reduce the respawn pull out knife kill people. Its really annoying when someone kills you before you can even weaken them. Give it a fire interval of like 35 or something, giving it a fire interval may even weaken knife a bit in general, since picking it up you have to wait around .55 seconds to throw it again. Hrmm.

someone suggested in the suggestions forum to be able to catch the knife. Basically, you would have to not have weapon equiped and face the knife as it hits you.
I think that would be a neat little trick that could reduce the effectiveness of knives by just a tiny amount, which is what we are aiming for.

Heh, that could be a nice idea but then weaponless ppl could pwn the others, which is not realy fair, besides.. if that happends should be only in the point the knife is realy slowing down..

Can you make the second part of your post more understandable? I doubt many people speak Engrish :\ - Demonic

The kinife if anything is a tad strong, but not overly. The glory of the knife is that you can whip it out in the last second and take that one last life. Making it have a charge up or a timer like the law would ruin the fun and surprise.If anything, the LAW needs to be fixed up, so it can become a worthy weapon once again.

EDIT: I know this has nothing to do with the balance, but perhaps the knife could occasionally get shot out of the air? I think that would even things up when knifers 'drop in' on the enemy.

After discussing a bit with MisterX, we've come up with 2 possible solutions.

1#: Charge-for-damage:

Simple solution, it's been mentioned in the first post aswell. To be more detailed, if you'd throw a knife just by tapping the mouse, you would do around 10% damage. However, if you'd keep the button pressed for like, one second, you would do a 100% hit. The knife would still keep its current range, that means you could still do a quick but low damaging long range attack.

2# Charge for damage and range:

A bit more complicated. The more time you keep the throw button held, the farther your weapon would go (maybe implement this to all throwable weapons? Would be funny :)) and the more damage the knife would do. So a quick tap would result in you throwing the knife to like 5 feet far for low damage, but after a long charge you could throw your knife a screen away, dealing full 100% damage.

I support #2

Will you be able to keep the 'throw' button held down and relese the knive when you have a target or will it automaticly relese when it gets to 100%?

I dont think that 100% damage should be the extreme for a thown knive, maybe the range could grow and at around 70% charge the knive does 100% damage and the other 30% will be used to get it to an even farther range.

Ofcourse you could hold the button after it reaches 100%, we don't want to over-nerf it.
As for the second suggestion.. why make it more complicated than it would be? I think that would be hard to implement (that is, if you don't want to have a knife that if you charge for 5 seconds, screams through the battlefield like a barret bullet)

You all have hit on the biggest points.

The thing people most complain about is using knife for those quick kills (I.E. CLOSE RANGE)

If you stay out of range on the maps where it is able too, and you are always higher altitude than the knifer, he CANNOT get you. For the knife longer ranges, height is everything.

Personally, I believe the knife is a reusable m79. Without the "splash" dmg.

If we make it "chargeup" then why doesn't every secondary have a "charge up"

We need to stop thinking of NERFING negatively (I.E. Making weapons less strong)
Perhaps all the weapons need a buff?
The game would certainely be more fun.

I support option number 2 ONLY IF there would be indeed a charge indicator which would make you skilled indeed and not just lucky, but then it would just slow the game down.. (you can't realy aim in less than one second, and if it more than that it would be too slow)

So option number 1 sounds more implementable ..

Actually I think its fine as it is. Giving it a charge will take away the intant kill that gives it the edge over the USSOCOM somtimes. I like deciding whether I have the safe USSOCOM or gamble with the one-shot knive.

Edit: but if it is given a charge, my 70% verion is how i think it should be.

quote:Originally posted by SDFilmI support #2

Will you be able to keep the 'throw' button held down and relese the knive when you have a target or will it automaticly relese when it gets to 100%?

I dont think that 100% damage should be the extreme for a thown knive, maybe the range could grow and at around 70% charge the knive does 100% damage and the other 30% will be used to get it to an even farther range.
I agree with SDFilm's take on #2 (the knife being able to kill at 70% charge). #1 makes no sense, since damage is proportional to projectile speed for all weapons... #1 makes it seem as though you spend the charge period sharpening the knife or something.

Also, I think a full screen-length might be slightly too far for a full-power throw, no matter how long the charge time is.

quote:Originally posted by ZamorakWe need to stop thinking of NERFING negatively (I.E. Making weapons less strong)
Perhaps all the weapons need a buff?
The game would certainely be more fun.



Yes, there is too much of a 'how can we nerf this' attitude around this forum. I understand that sometimes weapons do need to be nerfed in one degre or another, but each time i see a topic or update, i can bet money that it will be nerfed.

quote:Originally posted by F3nyx#1 makes it seem as though you spend the charge period sharpening the knife or something.

ROFL, true :D

quote:Originally posted by F3nyxAlso, I think a full screen-length might be slightly too far for a full-power throw, no matter how long the charge time is.


Yes, I have horrible visions of vollys of knives being barreted around the map, the knive being over-used and it being regarded as a 'noob weapon'.

Or maybe, make the knife gradually inflict it's damage, like the flamer.
Personally, I say we make close-range throws not a one-hit kill.
And long range throws one-hit kill.

Because which one takes more skill?
<screw realism>

Well, #1 would be pointless. People would whip out their knife and just hold down the left mouse button, so they'd be ready once away.

Although I am one to advocate secondary weapons being between 70-90% as useful as primary weapons to promote weapon switching, I do think that thrown knives are a bit overpowered. Perhaps knives can have more or less throwing distance. Both can nerf the knife a bit but in different ways: faster thrown knives end up farther away if they miss and slower knives have less range and are easier to dodge (for obvious reasons). Then again, the knife really can't be nerfed too much without making it completely useless as a weapon. Although, variable strength and range/speed (especially range and speed) based on charge does sound like a good idea. If it has any less than one-hit kill on whatever it's hitting, then it's often useless when thrown, and then you have another chainsaw which is rather useless as a weapon as it is. Perfect example: Boogie Man bot. 5 kills, 38 deaths or so. If bots could throw knives or switch weapons, I'd test tweaking knives a bit on my comp, but I can't really do that online because I have 56k and can't really test anything without using bots.

Personnaly I think the first is the better option out of the two, because it doesn't make the real skill throws hard to execute. As for it being realistic.. try throwing a knife with almost no effort, and than try to throw it with full force (aim at a wooden surface). You'll see the difference.

@Captain Ben: The current problem with the knife is that people just whip it out and throw it in your face from close up, cheaply and unexpected. If people would run around charging their knife, they wouldn't have the advantage of being able to shoot with their primary (which they do now).

quote:Originally posted by DeMonIc
The current problem with the knife is that people just whip it out and throw it in your face from close up, cheaply and unexpected.

Are there any other effective ways? Seriously, if you don't like knifers, then stay back and away. The good thing as I said before, is that the knife can be totally spontaneous. It's one of those weapons that you can whip out in a situation and do a quick kill to cap or get away, etc. If a charge is added, then I guess the m79 and barret might aswell have charge up times, seeing as people just use them to shoot you in the face, cheaply and unexpected.

Most people get their kicks when they can.

quote:Originally posted by DeMonIc[brPersonnaly I think the first is the better option out of the two, because it doesn't make the real skill throws hard to execute. As for it being realistic.. try throwing a knife with almost no effort, and than try to throw it with full force (aim at a wooden surface). You'll see the difference.

@Captain Ben: The current problem with the knife is that people just whip it out and throw it in your face from close up, cheaply and unexpected. If people would run around charging their knife, they wouldn't have the advantage of being able to shoot with their primary (which they do now).If it happens often enough to be a problem, it shouldn't be "unexpected." Use the SPAS more if you don't like knifers... the knockback will keep them well away.

Also, as for your support of option #1. I thought that for #1, the knife would always have the same range -- therefore, always the same projectile speed -- but would do more damage if charged for a longer period. I cannot see how this parallels your real-life example in any fashion. If you throw the knife with more effort, it sticks deeper because it's moving faster, just like in #2... simple physics really.

Captain Ben, I guess you haven't noticed that Demonic is seriously advocating fire-delays for the Barret and M79. At least he's consistent.

Ben, M79 and Barret aren't secondary weapons....
I hope they give those a startuptime tough.

No. How are you going to stay away from knifers in CTF. Each team is going in an opposite direction for the flag. There should be no secondary that is one hit kill unless it has a reasonable disadvantage like the LAW and Chainsaw. I'm tired of an opponent emptying his whole clip and killing one player, and then being able to kill another with the knife. There needs to be a disadvantage...
I'll just name the disadvantages of the other OSK secs:
LAW- Must be crouching or prone in order to fire
Chainsaw- Barely any range at all.

Zambino, you get higher altitude than them, chances are it won't be a master knifer, and they will not be able to hit you at all, then you can just laugh and shoot them.

Zambino -- I know it's your style to charge blindly into the jaws of the enemy, revving your chainsaw or whatever the weapon du jour is, but you don't have to play that way... try hanging back and picking off those knifing [CENSORED]s with a Ruger. Also, prone-jetting is a great way to dodge knives... when somebody rushes you, jump-jet into the air and start shooting, but if they pull a knife, get ready to go prone real soon... try to time it so that you go prone the instant the knife leaves their hand.

Here's a couple of disadvantages the knife already has:
-short range
-slow-moving projectile with lots of arc
-only one throw, unless you retrieve it

BTW, I do want the knife to have a variable throw speed, like grenades. However, it MUST retain the capacity for one-hit-kills at full speed.

Knife should remain untouched...if not, a damage reduction so instead of killing 90% of the time it kills 60% of the time, the remaining health he has is up to you to finish off. Dont make me bring up my old charts on each secondaries efficiencies, because knife is certainly not capable of solving every problem in every situation, and with that ill add it doesnt solve more then 50% either, unless your a sniph with the thing.

Infact yes, ill take a blow to my knife. A damage reduction would DEFINETlY work imo.

well, i dont think the knife should be nerfed too bad, and it already isnt always a 1 shot kill weapon, and the very limited range on it is a hamper, but lowering the damage would be fine, but adding start up time isnt a good idea i think, cause being able to throw it right on start up has its benefits, you all know the spawnkilling retards and how annoying it is, and the only real defence you have is the one shot knifeings, and even if it is being used as a primary, isnt too bad, cause you can only cary 2 at max, ( both primary and secondary slots) and after one throw you have to switch, making you lose time while your enemy is killing you ( if you missed)and it already takes a reasonable amount of skill to be decent with, not to mention its fun to get long distance kills with it, and its the only weapon you can only use once, unless you use it to shank people, but that has no range at all, mebey if anything make it so it doesnt fly as far or as fast as it does now. i dunno. its late and im tired, and didnt read all of the posts ><

Knife disadvantages: its has not got the range of the LAW or USSOCOM, its not as good as the saw when in melee and once you kill someone by throwing it, you cant get it back.

SDFilm, If you really want to kill a sawer with a knife you can easely go close and throw your knife. almost no one uses the knife for stabbing

if you make it nade-liek(need to hold sum button), then make the distance you can throw it bigger at least

Knife should have a smaller range.
That will end the abuse I reckon.
No hold buttons, not more elements to make it more complicated.
Just reduce the range and you're done!

I somewhat recently switched over to another secondary over my old knife just due to the fact of its over usage and it makes me feel like a noob rackin up an easy kill throwin it. Tell me what you guys think of this..

The knife should only kill if its a an upper chest or head shot to make up for this decrease we can add a very little amount of range on it when trying to stab someone similar to that of the chainsaw. Lets face it you dont see anyone trying to knife someone over 90% of soldat players wont even attempt it and this should be encourage more then throwing it imo. So please take this last paragraph into serious consideration.

I think the problem isn't the knife at all. The socom with height/long range will always beat the knife. The same principal is with the law; all you need is a bit of distance from the knifer and you have the first shot. The guy with the first shot is obviously going to have the advantage.The only situation the knife succeeds is in close range. It just so happens that most of the situations when u need to use ur secondary IS at close range.

All the secondary weapons are used for different situations:

The Chainsaw-
Very close range instant kill. Very good for small maps like Nuubia.

The Knife-
Like the chainsaw except it can only be stabbed forwards. It can also be thrown but requires skill to hit the opponent. It can be used multiple times.

The Law-
This can be used at any range however it only has one shot and a long reload time. It is easy to aim but it has a delay to balance this aswell as only being able to shoot at prone or crouch.

The Socom-
This has medium range. Its the only secondary weapon that does not one hit kill. Its perfect for finishing off an opponent who has low health. The disadvantage is as its not a one hit kill wep it takes longer to kill the enemy than the others.

IMO i think the weapons are perfectly balanced except for the chainsaw (obviously).
The only thing that needs tweaking is the law.
I think the different types of secondary weapons make the game slightly more tactical. Making them perfectly balanced in all situations will just spoil this.

quote:Originally posted by SoulBladeI think the problem isn't the knife at all. The socom with height/long range will always beat the knife. The same principal is with the law; all you need is a bit of distance from the knifer and you have the first shot. The guy with the first shot is obviously going to have the advantage.The only situation the knife succeeds is in close range. It just so happens that most of the situations when u need to use ur secondary IS at close range.

All the secondary weapons are used for different situations:

The Chainsaw-
Very close range instant kill. Very good for small maps like Nuubia.

The Knife-
Like the chainsaw except it can only be stabbed forwards. It can also be thrown but requires skill to hit the opponent. It can be used multiple times.

The Law-
This can be used at any range however it only has one shot and a long reload time. It is easy to aim but it has a delay to balance this aswell as only being able to shoot at prone or crouch.

The Socom-
This has medium range. Its the only secondary weapon that does not one hit kill. Its perfect for finishing off an opponent who has low health. The disadvantage is as its not a one hit kill wep it takes longer to kill the enemy than the others.

IMO i think the weapons are perfectly balanced except for the chainsaw (obviously).
The only thing that needs tweaking is the law.
I think the different types of secondary weapons make the game slightly more tactical. Making them perfectly balanced in all situations will just spoil this.


That would be dandy and fine, but if you take into account that 90% of Soldat's battles happen upon mediocre range, which means it favours for the knife, then you'll see why knife is the most used weapon in the game, and why it needs a weakening. And no, it doesn't take skill to hit someone with a knife who is only a few Soldat-meters away from you.

I agree with Game Over's point about weakening the knife however i don't like the idea of the charge up. When someone sees you get out a knife they'll want to get out of range, and with the charge up time they'll easily get out of range and cane you with LAW/ Socom.
The knife will no longer be 'unexpected' with the charge.

How about we add an interval?

Like in barret, not reload but interval.
That way you just can't flip your knife out and kill, well you can, but only if when you spawn you "arm" it.

quote:Originally posted by ZamorakHow about we add an interval?

Like in barret, not reload but interval.
That way you just can't flip your knife out and kill, well you can, but only if when you spawn you "arm" it.

As you said yourself, this would only occur if you don't get rid of it when spawning, like with the LAW. So that's why it wouldn't really do anything in the end.

Did anyone actually notice this post?

quote:Originally posted by Captain BenEDIT: I know this has nothing to do with the balance, but perhaps the knife could occasionally get shot out of the air? I think that would even things up when knifers 'drop in' on the enemy.


I think the knife is fine the way it is now... the only problem with it is that its more useful than other weapons, because most of the battle situations are in favor of the knife. The knife shouldnt have any damage or range decrease... there should just be another way of dodging it. Making it possible to shoot it out of the air would be great, since its not easy to do this (small size), yet its not impossible. It might even be an option to toss it back to the enemy this way... imagine a new kind of "knivers" who just toss up their knife, and then shoot it in the direction of an army of rushers coming up. If possible, just adding this feature (and maybe unnerving the law a bit) would be the solution IMO.

I disagree with you Tybs. In my opinion the problem with the knife aren't the kills on a higher range. Mostly those kills actually need "skill", as you have to predict the enemys movement. The main problem are kills that are done up close, often just before the knifer dies. He just pulls out the knife, throws it and kills inbetween a split second. So the ability to shoot knives would only nerf a part of the knife that actually isn't overpowered at all, but the problem will still be the same.

Erm. Why not just decrease the power so rather then killing instantly, it puts the guy near death, which at that point you have to pull out your guns and finish him off. It would definetly tone them down to a tolerable level since everyone here seems to fancy nerfing the poor thing.

This way, instant spawn kills wont cut it, people cant fly by and kill you, none of that. They'll have to pull out their guns and finish the job. And seriously, even though this isnt realistic, since when did a knife kill you instantly? O_o;

As Tybs idea, I guess decreasing it's damage would overnerf the "normal" knifethrows. Those on longer ranges that mostly need skill. In close combat knife is mostly used for finishing off your enemy, but on longer ranges it's most often used for instantly killing the enemy without having him hurt before. And also this wouldn't really balance the quick throws in close combat, because there's barely a time that you haven't been hit in close combat when the enemy throws his knife. So as the other idea this would balance the wrong part of the knife.