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Some thoughts....
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - Weapon Balance Discussion
Deleted User
November 5, 2005, 1:03 pm
Just some comments after jumping on the server and checking each weapon out. I had to play by myself since the public wm test server is absolutely flooded. :(

Ruger

Slower speed, slower rate, perfect.

Spas

No comments

HK

Nerfed to a level of the other autos, perfect.

Desert Eagles

Now I do have some thoughts on the Desert Eagles. They were left untouched, and I realize this because they'll be up to level with every gun, considering every gun will be nerfed even more.

I still think it should be reversed...instead of quick and kinda weak, it should go back to slow and powerful. Slower fire rate and 3 shot kills minimum and maximum, IF thats possible. Even take a bullet out of the clip and just slow the fire rate down and kick the power up, like it was back in 1.2.1.

AK

I kind of disagree with the nerfing of it. It takes half a clip to kill someone from a decent distance unless you manage head shots each time, I think it should be left the same, and keep it level with the other guns.

Steyr

Its rather powerful once you use it right...but it still has too much bink. I mean, lower it down 1-2 points.

MINIGUN

Ok, im surprised this gun was left untouched...Ill give you this, I never thought about it, but you got the clan match balance almost dead on perfect, weakening weapons so they had to work with eachother, knowing that everyone is certainly not going to stick with 1 gun.

But the minigun just remains untouched. It can barely hold its own, and its neglected by serious players, some say they like using it, but will you guys ever use it in a clan war? Needs more power, or less bink. Another idea ive found to be excellent is that the barrel continues rolling for a little bit after you stop firing, allowing you to instantly start up another bead again. Infact, im quite positive implementing the down time is all it needs if not for more power and less bink.

FN Minimi

Less power, less speed, perfect.

M79

Less power might do it, but the bink idea just seems a little weird. I never got a chance to try it out while being binked so really I cant comment on it. However, I think a delay is seriously appropriate. Im guessing this mod is for making public servers more balance-freindly, and the overusage of the m79 is little problem me thinks. A delay would make the gun indeed harder to use, and im sure m79 pros can adapt, but newbies finding it as an easy way to kill will think twice.

Barret

More ammo again...meh...I think the rate should have been kept the same, although i dont notice much of a difference, and again I didnt get to try it out. :(

Socom

Me thinks it needs less damage rather speed. =x Like 5% less damage about.

Chainsaw

<333333 You upgrade the saw! :D I think though, that it should be upped to 99999999999 damage, to ensure it kills everytime =3. I mean think about it. Saw hits can sometimes register to put the soldat down to no health, or even half health rather then killing him instantly. Realistic or no realism, a saw going through somebody, will kill them.

Knife

-

Law

-

mar77a
November 5, 2005, 3:37 pm
I agree, specially with the AK. The only thing i really dont share with you is the Saw things you proposed.

Deleted User
November 7, 2005, 2:44 am
Well, the saw is meant to instant kill, and it kind of ticks me off when you run right through a person and hes an inch from death, so you have to attempt to run through him again, which is SUPPOSED to be a move that kills instantly. Its like requiring 2 head shots with a barret. 9_9

That, or atleast some more damage to ensure instant kills. Whatever does it.

headstone
November 9, 2005, 8:09 pm
Yeah, I know. The way the saw was in 1.3 it was impossible to kill anyone unless they're standing still... If you're running at eachother you might normally cause like 50% damage. I say, if you manage to touch someone with the saw, you deserve a kill.

Deleted User
November 9, 2005, 10:29 pm
If the old Law pros did not and could not adapt to a delayed law, how can it be said that the m79 pros will adapt to a delayed m79?

MisterX
November 10, 2005, 1:34 pm
quote:Originally posted by PoopIf the old Law pros did not and could not adapt to a delayed law, how can it be said that the m79 pros will adapt to a delayed m79?

Sorry, but what you say is just wrong. If those "old law pros" could not adapt to the delay, then they either didn't try, or they aren't those "pros". I myself changed to the LAW in 1.3, and I know others doing so. None of them had problems using the new LAW. But I hear many people saying the delay totally ruined LAW and it's useless now. But exactly those people mostly didn't even try the LAW, they just said it, hoping for that it's true. So please, don't base opinions on "rumors", try it out!

a-4-year-old
November 10, 2005, 3:45 pm
it is less reliable than it was, i didn't mind getting shot by a law instaintly from 2 feet away but really, it was kind of overkilled, but i chalenged myself to at least be able to kill something with every weapon, so i tried, i just suck with it.
i hate the styger, it is so binked that it is usless agenst any other gun

BlackStar
November 10, 2005, 3:51 pm
Heres the problem with comparing a delay on the M79 to the delay on the LAW: the M79's speed is 110, and the LAW's speed is 230. This means that when you fire the LAW, it only takes a couple ticks for it to reach its target. When you fire the M79, it takes half as much time as the LAW to reach your target (assuming its a relativly long-ranged shot.) IMO, the delay on the M79 essentially destroys using the M79 in a long range situation. The LAW is usable in long-range situations because the missle flies fast enough to make up for the delay. With the M79, it was already hard to make these sort of shots; making it harder is only going to decrease the use of the M79 yes, but it will make it so the only viable use of the M79 is at a very small range, which I don't think anyone wants.
I think a delay can work if the M79 also recieves a boost in speed, thus still making long-ranged shots viable, and increasing the skill involved due to the delay.

MisterX
November 10, 2005, 7:23 pm
quote:Originally posted by BlackStarHeres the problem with comparing a delay on the M79 to the delay on the LAW: the M79's speed is 110, and the LAW's speed is 230. This means that when you fire the LAW, it only takes a couple ticks for it to reach its target. When you fire the M79, it takes half as much time as the LAW to reach your target (assuming its a relativly long-ranged shot.) IMO, the delay on the M79 essentially destroys using the M79 in a long range situation. The LAW is usable in long-range situations because the missle flies fast enough to make up for the delay. With the M79, it was already hard to make these sort of shots; making it harder is only going to decrease the use of the M79 yes, but it will make it so the only viable use of the M79 is at a very small range, which I don't think anyone wants.
I think a delay can work if the M79 also recieves a boost in speed, thus still making long-ranged shots viable, and increasing the skill involved due to the delay.


I disagree here. You're getting it wrong: Even with the delay, nothing actually changes to your shots after having gotten used to the delay. It doesn't mean that you aim somewhere, hold the button for a little time, and then you shoot where you aimed when starting to hold the button. While you're holding it, you still have to aim at where your enemy is. It's basically the same like what it's now, it only takes a little longer until you can fire, that's all.

Deleted User
November 10, 2005, 7:57 pm
quote:Originally posted by MisterXquote:Originally posted by PoopIf the old Law pros did not and could not adapt to a delayed law, how can it be said that the m79 pros will adapt to a delayed m79?

Sorry, but what you say is just wrong. If those "old law pros" could not adapt to the delay, then they either didn't try, or they aren't those "pros". I myself changed to the LAW in 1.3, and I know others doing so. None of them had problems using the new LAW. But I hear many people saying the delay totally ruined LAW and it's useless now. But exactly those people mostly didn't even try the LAW, they just said it, hoping for that it's true. So please, don't base opinions on "rumors", try it out!


I guess there were very few actual "law pros" then, because theres not too many people using law in this version. Dont tell me im basing my opinion on a rumour, because I use LAW in this version, I use it in clanwars, I use it in publics, Quite frankly I even tried to use it in deathmatches. Did you see my "would not or could not" part, firstly there were very few that will try to adapt to LAW(because there are alternatives), then out of the maybe 15% that tried to adapt to LAW, half of them really COuld not. I can name a few players that tried law but could not adapt to it. m79 pros EITHER Will not or cannot adapt to a delay on m79 if it was added in the next version. There are alternative weapons which do not require much adaptation or learning, and those weapons at thier peak can still perform better than a m79, so why not use those? Thats everyones way of thinking. People dont say "oh... m79 is hard, but if I use it for 1 or 2 months, Ill get better with it.. So ill start practicing m79 now", they say "oh... m79 is hard, why should I practice with it for so long when I can pick up <insert another weapon here>, and start doing good from now, and in 2 months ill still be as good or better than the m79 user". You either make m79 so powerful at its peak that its worth practicing, or dont add a element which requires practicing(especially when its possible to balance out the weapon without adding this element).

Deleted User
November 15, 2005, 12:42 am
quote:Originally posted by Poopquote:Originally posted by MisterXquote:Originally posted by PoopIf the old Law pros did not and could not adapt to a delayed law, how can it be said that the m79 pros will adapt to a delayed m79?

Sorry, but what you say is just wrong. If those "old law pros" could not adapt to the delay, then they either didn't try, or they aren't those "pros". I myself changed to the LAW in 1.3, and I know others doing so. None of them had problems using the new LAW. But I hear many people saying the delay totally ruined LAW and it's useless now. But exactly those people mostly didn't even try the LAW, they just said it, hoping for that it's true. So please, don't base opinions on "rumors", try it out!


I guess there were very few actual "law pros" then, because theres not too many people using law in this version. Dont tell me im basing my opinion on a rumour, because I use LAW in this version, I use it in clanwars, I use it in publics, Quite frankly I even tried to use it in deathmatches. Did you see my "would not or could not" part, firstly there were very few that will try to adapt to LAW(because there are alternatives), then out of the maybe 15% that tried to adapt to LAW, half of them really COuld not. I can name a few players that tried law but could not adapt to it. m79 pros EITHER Will not or cannot adapt to a delay on m79 if it was added in the next version. There are alternative weapons which do not require much adaptation or learning, and those weapons at thier peak can still perform better than a m79, so why not use those? Thats everyones way of thinking. People dont say "oh... m79 is hard, but if I use it for 1 or 2 months, Ill get better with it.. So ill start practicing m79 now", they say "oh... m79 is hard, why should I practice with it for so long when I can pick up <insert another weapon here>, and start doing good from now, and in 2 months ill still be as good or better than the m79 user". You either make m79 so powerful at its peak that its worth practicing, or dont add a element which requires practicing(especially when its possible to balance out the weapon without adding this element).


Thats the whole point of adding a delay...it scares newer players away from using it, and it would scatter the large population of m79s. Not that im for destroying it, just that its a super powerful gun - it shouldnt be as easy as fly by and hit the guy. Serious practice should be needed, just like autos now need a little more skill then spray like mad hell and semi-autos just blindly shooting.

Tyrs_Hand
November 29, 2005, 7:24 am
If you want to make it harder to hit on the fly, give it a larger movement bink. Putting a start up time on the M79 is about as pointless as changing the self-bink on the Barret, with the law, it was good and stoped the player starting the match with two Barrets. The M79 has a short range, a longish reload time and requires skill to kill things at long range. If you give it a start up time, you are going to kill both its long and short range capabilities. In short range your dead to an MP5 or Shotgun before the shot goes, and at long range you won?t be able to hit squat.

D Eagles
Could use some more power, I see four of five different people come through my servers A DAY that might use them, and I am watching 4 servers.

HK MP5
Fine as it is, although could use some much higher self bink and movement bink so it is a short range only weapon.

AK
Fine

Steyr
Could use one or two points of damage increase, or maybe make the shots move a touch faster, else its fine as it is.

Shotgun
Fine as it is, fix the net code so when it hits it hurts.

Ruger
As was decided in the Ruger topic, slower firing rate but a clean 2 hit kill.

M79
Increase movement bink and add a sec to reload time, do NOT give it a start up unless you don?t want anyone to use it. Just like the LAW.

Barret
As above, increasing the movement bink would make it harder for the masses but not hurt those that are good and practice with it. If your going to give it startup time, make it only have it when your proned with it.

Minimi
Could use a little less damage, like about 4-5 points, I mean its got 50 shots and fires fast. Else its fine in its current state.

Mini-gun
No comment, fix the net code so it doesn?t tend to lag servers and it might even be allowed. If anything should be done to it, remove the push back effect. Easily done, stops any surfers that may have once, and still, use it and it might actually kill something.


General suggestions on weapon balance
Fix the net code. If things hurt when they hit some weapons might be used a lot more, shotgun for example.
If nothing happens to the net code, and this is personal preference, remove self bink on autos and make shots actually bink other weapons like the Barret. I have noticed that if you load a mod, either 1.2.1 mod or one that just removes the self bink, people?s pings drop by a good 15-30 across the whole server. Heck its not like it actually does anything, even your ever loving 'n00b' taps now a days. You can tap as fast as it can shoot with the Minimi and the AK, MP5 doesn?t seem effected by it anyway, this only leaves the poor old Steyr that is actually affected.

If you want to nerf something, you make it less desirable to those that just pick it up, not the people who are decent with the thing. Adding start up time on the M79 for example, kills it for everyone.

Rooster
November 30, 2005, 2:06 am
Desert eagles is the only gun i see endlessly complained about because it's not good enough, noone uses it, at all.

M79 will be ruined if it gets startup time, it's a primary weapon not a 2ndary isnta kill.

Mingigun, maybe it's time for soldat to grow up and get rid of it entirley, dont give me that it can be used properly bs cause it cant. It's purley a joke weapon in my eyes and im sure half of soldat, get rid of it and add another gun or turn it into a gun that isnt shunned by every player who has been playing longer than a year.

The fact that you can beat deagles with socom mid - close range makes the socom overpowered, if there is going to be no deagle buff wich is stupid at the moment(maybe it will make sense next patch) then the nerfing of guns that beat it that shouldnt makes sense.

Deleted User
November 30, 2005, 5:36 am
If you want to nerf something, you make it less desirable to those that just pick it up, not the people who are decent with the thing. Adding start up time on the M79 for example, kills it for everyone.
^^^^
very well put

Deleted User
December 1, 2005, 3:36 am
Although start-up time isn't as disastrous as it looks like it's being made out to be here (if you try playing with a minigun you learn to put enough foresight into your shots to compensate), so it's not an entirely bad option for the M79. It's just not a great one, either.

However, I would prefer more splash damage over a wider area, which would be a mixed blessing--you'd be able to thin out a crowd nicely, but you'd have to make sure you're a safe distance away beforehand. There's nothing more annoying to me than someone popping up in your face and blowing your face off with a M79 shell at point-blank and walking away almost none the worse for it. For something like mass instakill, it should be easy to get yourself killed in the process if you're not careful.
That'll turn away most of the new players, but I don't see why it should prove to be too big a deal for veterans, I imagine--if they can't handle adjusting to their m79, then it's all still good because they'll just have to learn how to use the other weapons too.
And that's the whole idea. We want a weapon balance to end all balancing; one where you can't just pick up one gun and use it all the time, but must explore all the weapons and use them whenever the situation calls.