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Final Thoughts Thread
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - Weapon Balance Discussion
November 6, 2005, 8:47 am
MM, beta-testers, and anyone else who will have an impact on the next versions weapon changes after long thought and doing my own testing with every single weapon I have came to this post. Weapon balance will never be perfect or even close to perfect if you both increase and decrease in areas. With the next versions weapon balance you should only add to certain weapons and not take away anything at all. Adding in certain area and taking away from others is you making yet just another imbalance. With all that said here are my final thoughts so please hear me out.

The Barret, make it so you have to crouch and/or go prone to shoot it, no soldiers in real life run through a battle with this gun, make it a REAL sniper rifle. Instead of taking away from its power this could balance this weapon out. This weapon will always be a 1 hit kill im sure and campers will exist forever just deal with it and play in non noob/camper friendly servers. If these changes are made to the barret you will see it being used as what its intended for and that is to "snipe" targets not run around and just pop shots at people with it close range.

The m79, this is a realistic 1 hit kill weapon and it is used on the "assault" even in real life battles. I say keep this weapon the exact same as it is. If your going to do anything to it add a minimal reload time increase.

The AK 74, keep this weapon the exact same as it is in 1.3 if you MUST change it decrease its bink a tiny bit. Dont forget this is the slowest fireing auto but with the greatest power rateing.

The Minimi, this weapon is the only weapon that needs a decrease and ill explain why. It needs an increase in speed and a decrease in power the reason is you can click fire this thing amazeingly fast and with its current power rateing you can whipe out 3-4 people per clip quite easyly.

The Steyr, lets add a bit more power to it but dont make it as strong (or really close to as strong) as the AK. 1 kill per clip with this weapon in most cases makes it pretty weak not to mention how accurate you have to be with it.

The HK mp5, I heard some say decrease its power and add to Steyrs do people miss how unbalanced that will be? Dont add any more power to it if anything add a little longer reload time. People dont forget this is a lousy mid and expecially long range weapon. This weapon is only effective up close and 2 kills max per clip (in most cases 1 kill) under normal play makes this thing balanced. This is still 1 of the least effective overall weapons to me.

The Spas, lets keep this weapon the same as its current configuration in 1.3.1 I think if there was weapon you finally rolled out the kinks with this would deffinatly have to be it. It is flawless in its current form I cant even suggest adding or decreasing anything without it ruining whats already perfect.

The Deagles, since 1.3 ive seen a dramatic reduction in the use of these they just cant keep up with most weapons in an avg players hands. These should provide you with a 3 shot kill and speed should not be increased or faster then that of the ruger. Increasing this weapons speed will just make people spam shots with it everywhere.

The Ruger, this weapon should be a 2 hit kill no questions asked. Most people cant land 2 out of 4 shots mid - long range with this weapon. Ive heard quite a few people say this weapon should be weaker with a faster fire rate. Increasing its fire speed and decreasing its power would promote "spraying" ruger shots with this weapon when this weapon should encourage people to be precise and accurate not spray blind ruger shots all over the place. Dont forget with this weapon more then any other(1 hit weapons aside)you will be in a reloading state more so then not leaving you extremely vulnerable. You guys really came oh so close to really ruining this weapon in this version more so then any others. So encourage and reward precision and accuracy not speed and slop this is a rifle not an auto.

The Socom, leave it just as it is. In its current form it does a decent job of "cleaning up" what you might miss with your primary and even that takes quite a few shots. If anything add maybe a minimal longer reload.

The Knife, after long and sometimes heated debates about this weapon I really have some things to say that should 100% without a doubt be used. A knife should be used and encouraged to stab somebody not throw it every chance you get. This is by without a doubt the most used weapon there is in this game aside from maybe the hand grenade and it seriously is pretty close even then. You can go into any server and see more then 10 knifes being thrown per game. I have a good idea for this weapon. Lets increase its stabing range similar to what you did to the chainsaw (just not as much) and decrease its effectiveness when thrown, make it like a 1 shot kill only to the head. We should encourage people to stab with this weapon not everyone use it and throw knives all over the place. By you guys standing up and making the changes I mentioned we will see a whole new era of knifeing and a way more respectful one.

The Law, its a rareity to see this thing used now a days I say to decrease if not get rid of its fire wait. I dont even use this weapon and think this is completely senseless. Lets leave this thing alone after the fire wait is reduced or completely removed.

The Saw, 1 word "perfection".

The Minigun, Id really like to see this as a useable weapon and one that some people would actually use as a primary I say make it stronger with a longer reload.

The Grenade, This weapon is so buggy I can never kill dead on with these things yet I get slaughtered dead on by them please fix these things for good and dont make them have an advantage when used with any other weapon as they are a weapon all by themselves.

The Cluster Grenade, These things need way more power they are useless in their current form. I ditch these just to pick up the buggy grenades. All explosions should be equivalant as a regular grenade or very close to imo. You could even make the pick ups provide less of em if needed.

Id like to end this thread with a request to the moderators. Im asking of you guys to make this a sticky in this forum until the next version of Soldat comes out. Only people who have passed their final judgement of this sensitive topic should reply to this topic with their final opinion only. This should not be a discussion or bash someones ideas thread but more of a tool, a tool for you beta testers and MM to look at and read peoples final thoughts and opinions instead of going through topic upon topic and post upon post of arguements, discussions, etc to get down to the bottem line and end any confusion from posters that other posters may have percieved. Moderators and beta testers, you gave us this forum section as a tool to get the publics thoughts and/or wants concerning this topic. Moderators and beta testers, you gave us servers with beta weaponary as another tool. Moderators, I ask that we the public give you moderators and beta testers this thread as your tool as you all continue to better the game we all just cant get enough of. Excuse any gramatical errors that may have been made in this post. This post was made with an hour of time writing this, hours upon hours of personal weapon testing, even more hours of thought, and my lack of sleep.

To everyone else this is YOUR FINAL opinion only, you shouldnt be talking about anyone elses opinions in this thread but yours and ONLY your final thoughts so please stay on topic.

November 6, 2005, 1:54 pm
One thing to add: Saw should have power similar to the knife (which is at 16500)--always, always, always, always an OHK. Infinite ammo would be good, or at least more ammo than it has now and a shorter reload.

Deleted User
November 6, 2005, 2:29 pm
Intro: I agree mostly with DePhille, so any weapons that are not in this list are to be as they are explained in DePhille's post below.

Although i normaly think the delay idea as cruel, it could work with the Barret as it will need a bit more skill, instead of the 'point, click, kill' that it is. Let it keep it's 10 bullet mag so that it can compete in Death Matches.

FN Minimi:
It should have more powerful bullets but be a lot harder to control and/or a lower ROF, so that it can keep its style as the support auto rather than yet another close-range sprayer. The Minimi is turning more and more into a Steyr than a mid-long range support machinegun.

quote:Originally posted by GAMEOVERThe Minimi, this weapon is the only weapon that needs a decrease and ill explain why. It needs an increase in speed and a decrease in power the reason is you can click fire this thing amazeingly fast and with its current power rateing you can whipe out 3-4 people per clip quite easyly.

I'm a decent Minimier, and i know it is realy NOT that simple unless you are good at nades.

Cluster Grenades: DePhille does have a good point, but making it a super powerful frag-grenade is just asking for self-kills unless you have cover e.g. throwing it down to a lower platform and staying on the upper one. But then i suppose throwing it and getting a kill or possibly multi-kills is worth 1 self-kill, as its not as if you lose points for self-kills. Maybe i just did not fully understand DePhille's post/idea.



"Give the LAW that!"

"Give the Barret this!"

"Turn the Minimi into a Steyr!"

"Gondor can nerf it! We payed for that over-powered weapon with our peoples blood!"

"I'll be dead before i see it nerfed by an Elf!"

*unproductive rabble commences*

Deleted User
November 6, 2005, 3:38 pm
Nice thread, instead of making on enew per weapons, only one's much better.
Anyways..all i would like ot change is :
- Remove waiting time of the m72-Law.
- Remove the selfbink
- Barret should be nerfed, like a ____little____ waiting time
- Also I wish some bugs would be fixed :s
In my opinion the rest is fine.

November 6, 2005, 8:02 pm
-> Updated 07 November 2005
-> Updates are in bold.

Intro: I agree with GO and i would even go further: please delete any topics that do not contain a list of the weapons and thoughts about them. This should only be a very organised thread of everyone's final idea. Everyone gets one post in here with their final thoughts and no other crap. If you changed your mind you can still edit your message.

Overall: Maybe one new feature: The bullet's speed should be more straight with the damage it does. Good examples would be the Combat Knife , the USSOCOM , the HK MP5 , ... They'll have their general problems solved.

Recent Changes: Alot , read the 'Notices' and 'Comments'. I also reformulated the Cluster Nades to make less victims of my grammar-nazisism :) , writing long topics without always using the same words is hard for me :P.

USSOCOM: This weapon needs NO changes. Maybe one and that'll be the new feature i mentioned in 'Overall'. Please don't change this weapon unless you add the new feature.

Desert Eagles: These weapons may reload just a bit faster. I used to use them all the time during 1.2 and the versions before it and I stopped using them since 1.3 because they got me killed too much. I realised that i died too much using them , i normally just hit the opponent so only needed one more shot to get killed. Then i died , it really came down on a few moments before i would've reloaded and fired that one releasing shot. This weapon has replaced the HK MP5's function in 1.2 : It is effective in close combat and it damages in medium range , but it sucks at long range.

HK MP5: This weapon needs SOME tweaking but again, not much. Like i said in 'Overall' this weapon damages too much in long range and a tiny little bit in long range. This weapon should be very very VERY effective in close range. Again; this weapon is the ' 1.2 Deagles'. BUT; do not change anything else as the damage (just a little bit) unless you add the new feature mentioned in 'Overall'.

AK74: I used the weapon when i wanted something else than my Deagles. Now i rather throw it away and scout for other dropped weapons. I've seen few people using them , both in public and private games. This weapon was the long-range auto and now it only has too much recoil. I think this weapon should fire it's bullets fast (as it does now) and cause medium damage. Also this weapon has very little recoil , that's why it is used for a long long time (In vietnam the US soldiers threw away their M16 for AK's) so the recoil should be less and if it still is unfair try decreasing the fire rate instead of the recoil , but if you decrease the fire rate you should increase the bullet's speed to keep it a long-range rifle.

Steyr AUG: This weapon should be a weapon that flies trough it's mag in no-time. If the player missed his bullets he/she should think 'Uh-oh' and dive for cover. The opponent should recognize the Steyr and immediately drop down for cover. I say: keep it's accuracy , maybe add a little bit of damage , also maybe increase the bullet speed to make it a bit more deadly (only do this if you do not change the damage or it will become an AK with another skin). Also , these changes should be minimalistic.

Spas 12: This weapon should be the Chainsaw-like weapon in the primary weapon list. I use this weapon to blast myself through a horde of players when i can barely see myself. In my opinion this weapon should not be changed , it is fine now. This weapon should stay they very short range Chainsaw-like that cuts trough masses of flesh. Maybe remove that bug that when you are reloading and you fire that it fires at your crosshair instead of straight ahead.

Ruger77: This is my current favourite. I'm being called Rugerard or Rugertard ALOT but personally i don't care. If i miss too much i'm dead , the reload is a perfect counter-balance for the damage it does. Keep your hands of this weapon , it sucks at short-range , it's a long-range rifle and it works perfect now.

M79: Also , this weapon is very good , no changes needed. Maybe one thing but that ain't towards the weapon balance but it's a little experiment.Pfft , maybe decrease the dodging of players a bit? this would do good for the mappers (less M79-jump bugs) and for the damage (When it lags i've seen that the dodge seems to apply before the damage). I cannot think of any more stuff to say about it here , i've always used this weapon when the music made me feel like it.

Barret M82A1: This weapon should only be fired when proned or crouched. I don't think anyone would be running with a 2Meter rifle. This is a SNIPER , spelled S-N-I-P-E-r , which means the player camps with it. I think one thing should be changed if - after the disabling of the firing while standing - the anti-barret stuff keeps existing that it is the reloading time , increase it. Maybe , an experiment i'd like to try out , make it fire rapidly and let it have an extremely long reload-time. Also , don't be too pessimistic when people start whining about it - this is the most difficult weapon to tweak.

FN Minimi: This weapon should fire rapidly with alot of recoil when standing , medium recoil while crouching and little recoil while proning. A machinegun is heavy and should feel heavy on Soldat. At the moment i think this weapon is good and i think you should only change it when alot of people ask to do so. The 1.2 Minimi was to strong (Aka 'Noobcannon') but now it fits fine.

XM214 Minigun: This weapon is really the spray-weapon in some maps. I think you should decrease the bulletspeed , not a little but not too much. This will decrease spraying and also lag (Bullets land and disappear faster) will be reduced , though it affects ping nothing in my opinion. This weapon should be the panic weapon : if you find that you always get attacked and killed when reloading this should solve your problems. I like it because the firing rate is high and it's fun to see the whole other team trying to run against the bullets to no avail.

Rambo Bow: Nothing to change here , it cannot be balanced since it's the only weapon and should be the uber-pwnage stuff in a rambo-game.

Flamer: More fire particles , i don't know how slower machines would react on this but twice as much fire particles would increase the reality and burn-fun.

Combat Knife: This weapon is THE weapon atm , because the LAW completely sucks at the moment. DO not try to reduce power. As i said before i really advice not to REDUCE power but instead INCREASE power. It's better to increase all weapon's power than to reduce one each version this will result in minigun-like weapons. The knife is a fun weapon to play with and requires some familiarisation. If you change this weapon you'll have a chance to kill 70% of the Fan Art community , those movies are stuffed with knife-kills.

Chainsaw: Blooooood , this weapon is alot better at the moment. In 1.2 i reckon some chainsaw-battles in the top or bottoms of maps where people rarely come. Alot of players were organizing little chainsaw fights in the dungeons while the rest kept on fighting above. I went in those tunnels with a Spas or so and run trough them all , both friend and foe , that was fun. These days when i try such a thing i'd get ripped apart by the first medium-skilled chainer in there , which means that this is one of the best changes in the Weapon-balance in 1.3 .

M72 Law: Very simple , it was good in 1.2 . Just remove the annoying fire-delay and it will be a good competitor for the knife again. People should compare this weapon with the other secondaries instead of the other primaries , which is often mistaken. The balance between the secondaries was better in 1.2 than in 1.3 . I think that if you put the law as in 1.2 again you'll get very close to the 'Perfect-Balance' and that'll show alot of appreciation in the crowd.

Grenade: Should be more powerful , sometimes i throw nades against people and they don't die. This weapon should rip people apart , both when hit in head or feet. This should not have a too wide area-effect because that'll indanger the M79. Another experiment that should be tried is to let it bounce alot more , it'd be less anoying in laggy servers and won't change much in good servers.

Cluster Grenades: I think it's strange that no-one complains about this. I've found myself throwing them away to change them for regular nades. They do some damage but they don't kill. Normally Clusters are very cruel , ripping of bodyparts with ease. I think the Cluster nade should actually be what a frag-nade is in real life. It should shoot off fragments killing people around it instantly like the knife does atm. Ofcourse , the fragments should not fly too far or cause an instant kill if the fragment is going too slow. Maybe then the cluster should also be thrown further than the regular to increase it's bonus. This is actually UN-balancing the
weapons since bonusses should be a luck and not a pain in the neck.

Final Notes:
-I've heard many people say there is no such thing as a perfect balance. If you agree just close this whole topic and let Soldat rust , but atleast release the source so i can reproduce this magnificent game.
-And please don't take all the comments and flaming too hard. After all you people are at the base of Soldat's amusement and should be nothing than proud.
-I didn't post any positive comments , only constructive changes that could be made. Please don't take this as another unhappy player complaining , i'm happy with Soldat and i want to improve it even more.
-Changes may occur while i continue browsing the Weapon Balance thread. I'll try not to post in other topics since they get crowded too fast but instead i'll post it here.
-Again; please use some order in here , like only one post and use the weapons image on the main page (http://www.soldat.pl/images/weapons.jpg) to order your comments (so that USSOCOM is put first in every post). That'll take off alot of filtering for the few mods that'll read these posts all.
-Finally it'd like to encourage EVERY mod to read EVERYTHING. These posts contain ALL the toughts that people have about the current weapons , and that is what we're searching for , not another topic containing "Barret sucks" , "No" , "Yes" , "No" , "Yes" , ... Also this is the result of one and a half hours work of typing , changing and thinking about what i wrote. This may still containt typo's and gramatical errors as typing more than 12000 characters takes more time and effort than reading it.

-I'd like to thank the mods. I've seen Demonic leaving and this is what i feared with the outcome of 1.3 (Not exactly Demonic ofcourse but i feared that mods would retire). Some people forget that they really do GOOD changes , that's why Soldat is still being played and it's increasing popularity. Some people should give good comments too instead of always just saying that the weapons in 1.2 were better and then click the Post button. Anyway on the mods' side there's also some misunderstanding going on. Not everyone that likes the game will come here and drop you a thanking line. Most people will just go on and play the game. Only unsatisfied people will post their bad comments. Improvements really are always possible , otherwise we would still be stuck with Windows 95 , and this makes some mods think their work has been for nothing and they'll finally leave. With all this i'd just like to thank the Mods and encourage them to hang on even now.
-Secondly , i think it's too bad that my post was too late , otherwise we would maybe have such a list i mentioned. I want to make such a thread , only allowing one post per user , containing all the final thoughts. The purpose of this public WB thing is to see how the public thinks about it. Currently most of what I see are discussions about the weapons. Those discussions aren't going to help really fast , they'll only are a manner of amusement as discussing about some stuff can be fun. I really would like to make such a thread but it's rules would get jacked easily and i think mods don't have time to read trough them all because they are too few. Also it would be a very similar topic to this one and this topic isn't completely jacked yet. By the way , in fact i think that NO-ONE read my post fully , really NO-ONE. But if everyone reads atleast a part of it my thoughts will get trough in general. Though this doesn't mean to stop reding from here on since my thoughts are very intresting ^^, :P.

In this place i'll be putting comments on some general thoughts i hear in some of the discussion (atleast if i see misunderstandings in them). There are alot of statements out there that show the little time people have thought about what they said.
'Barret needs a waiting time' - I Completely disagree with this. If you want this you should change the Barret with some other weapon that can be held while running. A sniper should only be able to shoot properly when he is actually camping. Increasing the reload time alot will cause the player to run since the next enemy will kill them faster by stepping on them than the barreter reloads. This is a sniper people , it should be a sniper and not a weapon with a purpose to still be able to kill people in one shot.
'M79 should have a startup time' - again for the same reasons as above: please don't use those waiting times. I don't wee what is wrong with the M79 unless the dodging thing. I'm not an experienced user with the M79 but i use it.M79 is just fine , i dodge their bullets with ease (if i'm not too paralysed by music or something) and then they are pretty fuxxed as they are standing there , reloading their M79. By that time i could even have killed thm with a Saw (that's my worst weapon)
'1.3 Is good as it is now , leave it' - No it isn't. maybe it is for you but not for the community. And I bet that you atleast have one improvement to make. All the suggestions made by players (like me) should not be applied ALL ofcourse , maybe like 30or40% of them , otherwise you'll make too big changes causing the game to get unbalanced again. See it as you're filling up a balance of 1Kg with already 5 apples on the other side; if you add 10 apples at once there's a huge chance of having a too high weight , try to add them with 3 by 3 and you'll be closer to yor goal at a faster time.

PS: These comments are not meant offensive in any way. I just try to take away any misundertandings and show my thoughts. If everyone would think their thoughts would be unimportant we will never improve.

Grtz , DePhille

November 7, 2005, 12:22 am
I read everything that Dephille said and I must say I agree with most of it.
One thing about the LAW though, I think the reload should be enhanced slightly and removal of the start-up time. That way it can be used for a kill and then be mostly useless for the rest of your round.