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Objectivety towords the Weapons Balance.
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - Weapon Balance Discussion
November 6, 2005, 2:05 pm
This is for sure the biggest problem, and the main reason to why we haven't found a better balance 'till this day.
I still remember in the beta of 1.2, back then it was a huge fight in the beta testing group.
Betwin the Barret users and .. well the rest.
I don't think that an opinion is objective when it comes from a personal agenda.
A barretard is bound to say anything to supprt the barret and will always assume that the only reason he's owning everyone is because he's very skilled.
Rarely you'll find a user of a weapon admiting its overpowered.

Thus you had a version filled with campers still (1.2)
Then came 1.2.1, and what a surprise all of a sudden every little kiddy says the AK is a great weapon and its fine, while they own everything in their path without sweating it.
Then you hear them posting in places like this "Oh 1.2.1 is great! the balance is perfect stop whining".

After years of playing this game (almost 3 to be exact) I realized something , the best place to see what weapons are the overpower ones are in public with the most n00bish players ever.

Just think of when you were a n00b, I remember myself trying all the weapons in order to find the best one, I eventualy stuck to m79 but only since I enjoyed the huge blast.
Most players though stick to what is easier for them.
Barret always was domminant because it was always the easiest one with the exception of 1.2.1, in 1.2.1 though you saw all those auto users spraying away.
You saw a "Soldier" walking and barely managing to walk over a hill but spraying away and getting easy kills, not to mention you actualy had to use your well trained aim inorder to finish him before he did you.

There's also a big difference betwin applying the cw expirience onto your weapons balance comments and using your public one.
True its spotable in cw's, but sometimes you need to ask yourself "maybe he's just good with it?".

My point is, if you want to know what weapons are the easiest ones (thus in need of nerfing) just visit some publics and see what are they using the most.
The more n00bish they get, the more reliable and objective they become.
What is more common then the average n00b who's camping in his base?
He is objective! by his actions he's telling you that this is the easiest way to kill for him.
If you see a n00b spraying with an AK, Styre or Spas you know that something smells here.

Often they will try to immitate you once you own them, if its easy for them they'll stick with it, if it takes some skill they'll probably drop it for later.

I say the n00bs are the best source to find the overpowered weapons.'

November 7, 2005, 2:09 am
i play public servers exclusively and i regulary host my own 1.2.1 CTF server. i find that the most overpowered weapon in 1.2.1 was the m79. it's the most rapid firing one shot kill weapon out there, near misses can still be one shot kills and you can fire it at point blank in a panic shot with no skill (hence "panic shot") and one shot kill someone. however, it does take some skill to fire it at long range and some of the trick shots the skilled m79ers take just that, skill.

November 7, 2005, 4:45 am
You confuse the hell out of me sometimes guv ...

i am ahab
November 7, 2005, 11:47 am
yes, a valid point matey.

now, as a counter argument....

you mention how you first picked up an m79...

remember that soldat has a learning curve. i remember how i didnt see the point of the autos really in 1.1.5 and adored the m79. and newbies today still levitate towards the one hit kill weapons, purely because they only need that one hit to kill any player regardless of skill. which surely evens the playing field against the better players as the new guy only needs to get lucky once.

so my point is, that there are easier weapons to use. and as such the newer players use them, until they find merit in the alternatives ( <3 that ruger ). so does this mean that those weapons are overpowered purely because they are more popular amongst players of limited experience?

after time players can develop tactics against these weapons. and using the other guns and their experience can exploit the long reload time.


now i realise that your point here is actually that players become loyal to a certain weapon. and will not admit it is overpowered. and that the only way to see which ones are -really- overpowered is to look at usage amongst new players. my point is that maybe you should look at the trends as a whole for kills with weapons across all servers (possibly launch a killog drive, try and get as many as possible?). limiting your dataset to new players is giving your argument tainted data, although it would possibly point in the right direction. ;)

November 9, 2005, 12:47 pm
Hehe lol , i just made a post similar to this in the ruger section.
Most people seem to forget that skills can vary and therefore weaken/improve blanced weapons.
Their comments can easily be counter-proved since they don't include a reason , just a subjective thought.

In short: 'I Agree' :)

Grtz , DePhille

Deleted User
November 10, 2005, 5:22 am
I admit when I started I stuck to the mini gun then over time went to the barret and now after 1.3 I changed to ramdon auto's but still will pick up a barret when going one on one with a sniper. but besides that I agree you make an great point.

November 10, 2005, 9:11 am
Well the thing is, a new player still has a human intelect.
Espacialy a kid, they see and learn, just like the rest of us.
If I for example used AK in 1.2.1 vs a barret, the barret user will soon realize he can't hit me for some reason, or atleast its much harder.
Then he tries my AK, if he gets beaten easly with another weapon he'll try that.
In short he goes by a series of weapons trying them out, and generaly you can safely say he will stick to the easiest weapons , atleast at first.

No weapon should be easiest. nor good against all the rest.
A balance means that every system, every set of weapons will have an effective counter.
Just like in stratagy games where you'll find a counter unit for each unit.

An experienced player is less objective, espacialy if is sole purpose is to maintain is current status of ownage.
When I wanted to be objective, I just used the same weapon I found overpowered.
For example, I have been using barret in gathers for quite a while, after years of not touching that weapon (which in theory requirs a whole different way of thinking) I practicly owned with it.
I camped, I sprayed, I did everything I claim to be overpowered inorder to feel it and maybe even find better ways of dealing with it.

That's why I claim that I prefer camping over spraying, since camping isn't so good against campers, not that usefull vs sprayers either.
But spraying is an effective way of dealing with both, or anything else to that matter.

This is how I formed my opinion, not just by getting owned by sprayers.
This is NOT how kids here form their opinions, and making everyone test theirs is not reasonable.
So I came to a conclusion that the best way to test it objectivly is by watching the n00bs and playing against them.