This idea's been bouncing in my head for some time, but now I got so frikkin' tired of all the cursed "combat sniper" -barretards being 90% of the Soldat community, so I decided to post it.

What is wrong with with the Barret? The way how people use it. Sniper weapons should be used to snipe (camp), not to kill people with one click from 20 metres. It's just unfair. A confronter can barely shoot out a few bullets in battle, and before the bullets hit, the barreteer has already shot his weapon and the confronter is dead before the bullets he shot even hit the barreteer.

And the second problem. The Barret is too easy to master. A good barreteer has his hit accuracy almost up to 100%, and thus he is almost invincible. And I do not lie when I say that a good barreteer's shots almost everytime hit. And a good barreteer is almost every barreteer these days.

There has been ammo reduce, start-up time, everything. But those are not the answers. My idea will fix the both problems in a way that probably everybody likes. So, listen up.

When you've selected your primary weapon as a Barret, this is what happens:

[IMAGE]

Yes, you can't see no cursor with the Barret. If you want to use it like this, you have to rely on the barrel's point of direction. Of course, the sreen moves normally to the place where the "invisible cursor" is.

But, now the Barret would be rather impossible to use, eh? So here comes the tricky part.

The Barret's scope would have a whole new activation key, perhaps C? But whatever, this is what happens when you press the scope button:

(excuses for the crappy Paint edit)

[IMAGE]

Yes, it brings up a scope view. The longer the distance is, the wider the scope becomes. Everything that isn't under the scope's view, will be clouded by black.

Now, the Barret would be much harder to master, but it would still remain as deadly as it was.

That's it. Feel free to send new ideas, questions and whatever.

The idea came from 3D shooters.

This idea is great! I like the missing cursor to make it harder to shoot a barret when your moving. I also like the scope but im not absolutely sure because this is and will always be soldat, maybe only for realistic? Maybe its better if the scope would automaticly turn up when going prone instead of a button?

I think there should be something like this when actually using the scope (crouch and prone).
It doesn't really make sense for when the player is standing, since he's not using the scope.

I think the way to solve this problem would be to have the players cursor/sniperline invisible while standing.
Or at least make it become gradually visible as the cursor gets farther from the gostek.
That way, a baretter would have a hard time fighting up close.

I like both ideas.
How about the cursor is invisible when standing, and becomes progressivley more visible when crouching or prone (But still very faint).

And when using the scope it would be like Fluffy said, except the scope should be wider, and perhaps go a bit further than it does now to compensate.

If this idea ever gets into Soldat, I can imagine how people are always unsatisfied with the scope wideness thingie.

*chokes fluffy* DIE [CENSORED]! DIE!
AND LEAVE THE BARRET ALONE!
man, first they say camping is bad, now they say combat sniping is bad!
[CENSORED] YOU [CENSORED]!

Numgun, he has reason. The barret is infact an easy kill. I support this idea, the Barret shouldnt be as easy as a Major picking it up and killing anything within an hour of using it.

Cotton supports :D

quote: *chokes fluffy* DIE *****! DIE!
AND LEAVE THE BARRET ALONE!
man, first they say camping is bad, now they say combat sniping is bad!
**** YOU *****!
Nice blatant flame there bucko, n00b moment anyone?
I support this idea, despite the fact that I'm an offense Barrettard.

THIS IS AN AMAZING IDEA

TYPING IN ALL CAPS TO PROVE HOW AMAZED I AM

AMAZING

Great idea. I thought about this long time ago. But this option should actually be only when you sit down and camp!

I like this very much!
...and btw I love suggestions with some instructural pictures ...ow man I love it!

people! soldat is a 2D GAME!
NOT a 3D, this idea would be good for 3D games, NOT 2D games!

and have u ever been in a barret duel? barret is not just point and shoot, u have to move too or U WILL GET PWNED!
and btw, [CENSORED] YOU! (sry for swearing, but i just felt like it ; D) [CENSORED]!

quote:Originally posted by numgunpeople! soldat is a 2D GAME!
NOT a 3D, this idea would be good for 3D games, NOT 2D games!

and have u ever been in a barret duel? barret is not just point and shoot, u have to move too or U WILL GET PWNED!
and btw, [CENSORED] YOU! (sry for swearing, but i just felt like it ; D) [CENSORED]!


Numgun, I think in ANY duel you have to move or you will get pwned. Barret can take out any other gun regardless of movement.

Numgun, if you're a decent barret, and this happens to be implemented, a true player of skill would stop getting his panties in a knot, over nerfing a gun that is in desperate need for it and would accept it; and adapt.

Numgun has no idea what he's talking about. He gives the word "barretard" the meaning it's meant to have. "u have to move too or U WILL GET PWNED!". Er, exactly the opposite.
I like this idea. Either this or permanent prone (you can't get up after you've prone with the barret).

Yay! The barret will not be shameful any more!

Bob Dole (c) approves Michal's idea.

numgun...

...you have been POONT

damn u : /

if this keeps going on every gun, the whole soldat will suck.
all guns will be nerfed that they will be ''sucky'' or maybe even removed from the game...
and when it will happen, u will think this: ''aww, this sucks, before was much better.''

and answer this: DO YOU LIKE SOLDAT NOW AS IT IS?

and Zambino: i know exactly what im talking about. u just dont understand me. DOOFUS! xD

the barret would be underpowered. it isnt that much better than other weapons that it should need a so big nerf!
think about the bink! the barret would suck big time... actually, i think the barret is good as it is, it only needs some minor nerf. like maybe not always 1 hit kill in normal (hitting lower feet)

Edit: and you people who whine endlessly about campers: this would make the barret more of a camping weapon than it already is!

I want the barret to be a weapon that is harder to use. That does not mean it has less power.
I'm completely against lowering a weapon's strength , it will completely lower the fleshyness of Soldat. Weapons should be made stronger instead of weaker.

This suggestion is towards that way so i really think it's one of the good ones (like prone/crouch only fire). Though like numgun said it doesn't really fit in a 2D shooter.
Maybe there's a solution that looks like this one? I think we're on our way to find a good solution here.

BTW: Maybe you should post this in the Weapon Balance thread.

Grtz, DePhille

Well, this idea is just like CS. All snipers didnt have any crosshairs and you had to scope to have a crosshair. How about, doing what fluffy says, but instead anytime you crouch or go prone you will get the normal crosshair thingy. Also, lowering the power of a barret wont really do much. People will flame and [CENSORED]. I mean a rugger is much better if you know how to use it.

Uh, I haven't said anything about lowering the Barret's power and surely not complaining about any other weapon than the Barret. What's wrong with you? Am I typing too fast or something?

And I don't think this belongs to the weapon balance board, since it really concentrates on the weapons' stats.

And I don't think that the crosshair should become visible while crouch/proning. That's just odd.

And I wouldn't mind if the number of the campers would grow; everything is better than combat snipers!

Maybe the number of campers would rise, but it would be much harder for them to spot u if u move well... part of the screen is black, so if u fly up a bit, they wont notice u (or they have to move their scope up/down/up/down all the time, but that makes u crazy). I use the barret a lot, but i think this is a good idea. To compensate a little bit, maybe the range of the scope could be increased... not much though, just a few inches. I really think u should have a crosshair while using scope though, otherwise it gets overnerved... u cant even see ur barrel anymore while scoping, so how to aim without a crosshair? :P

Uh, I thought I drew a sniper line and a crosshair to the scope picture?

And of course, the scope range should be increased quite a lot.

now u r [CENSORED]ing retarded fluffy, u had other ideas
that were actually nice(water, vehicle...),but now u messed it all up ; (

Nice useless post Numgun.
*Wind whistles*

Of course with this added you could increase the fire rate and lower the bink a bit to compensate.

Yeah, I'm [CENSORED]ing retarded.

And Bulbock's suggestion was right.

Let's remember that the Barret is actually an AT weapon in origin. It is a large and heavy gun, which may be equipped with a scope. If you want to discourage close-combat barreting, raise the movement-accuracy value. That will make it harder to shoot while moving, which is your objective I believe.

Alternately, if we were to abandon the history of the barret, and just think of it like any ol' sniper rifle, you could lower its power to make it not a guaranteed 1-hit kill. Make it similar, to the realistic-ruger, perhaps a bit more powerful though. This will increase the skill requirements, since you have to try for headshots, or quickly whip out a socom for to finish them. I have seen a WM server that did this, it was interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Hans LemursonLet's remember that the Barret is actually an AT weapon in origin. It is a large and heavy gun, which may be equipped with a scope. If you want to discourage close-combat barreting, raise the movement-accuracy value. That will make it harder to shoot while moving, which is your objective I believe.

Alternately, if we were to abandon the history of the barret, and just think of it like any ol' sniper rifle, you could lower its power to make it not a guaranteed 1-hit kill. Make it similar, to the realistic-ruger, perhaps a bit more powerful though. This will increase the skill requirements, since you have to try for headshots, or quickly whip out a socom for to finish them. I have seen a WM server that did this, it was interesting.


Unless Soldats wear 5-inch thick armor this would be pretty stupid, and totally negates the the purpose of the barrett being a 1-hit-kill gun.

The BPV can stop 2 barret shots...(but not a knife to the head!)

If the barret were to be reduced in power, it would have to be a different gun altogether. My first idea preserves the "barret-ness" of the weapon.

quote:Originally posted by Zambino"u have to move too or U WILL GET PWNED!". Er, exactly the opposite.



I was always under the impression that it's easier to hit a static target with a sniper rifle than it is to hit a moving one.

Lowering the Barret's power to the point where only headshots kill? God, that's just so stupid... In reality, if you get shot in the chest from a Barret, your body will literally blow into pieces. Remember, it's actually desinged for vehicles. So, if you want to go realistic, maybe you should add a more realistic hit system; when you get shot from a Barret to your leg, it'll fly miles away, and you can use prone-only after that. Happy then?

And increasing the movement accuracy? Now then the Barret would be so annoying to use.

Why people just can't agree with this best idea so far and have to recycle old, stupid ideas?

Just disable barret crosshair whle not camping in far range.

Lol, i like the idea of having to go prone when ur leg gets shot off... although i think that should be in real mode only. Funny though when ur fighting someone who lost both his arms ^^

I like the idea, well, at least some of it.

What I say is remove the cursor if you're not crouching, and if you're crouching it's only got 20-50% opacity, full opacity when you're prone. Furthermore, unless you're not croucing (or prone) the bink needs to be increased, by 50% or more.

as my first reply i have a lot of things to say:
firstly, why not just take out the cursor for everygun to make it realistically fair (and not just to specifically weaken a gun) - it'll have the strongest effect on the barret and law and m79 (all the one hit kills) whereas on guns such as hk, steyr, ak, minimi, deagles, socom, (minigun), ((ruger)), and spas it won't be as bad because after firing the first bullet, you soon will be able to adjust your onto your target very quickly!
Also, if Michal were to implement this then he should disable bink since you would already have such difficulty aiming.

Secondly (in addition to first), since barret does have a scope, it should only be activated the way you said - however, if michal were able to implement a 'shaded' region (the dark around where you aim with scope), then he should use this feature to enhance realistic mode to show what is and what is not in the preson's line of sight. however, i do like the idea with the scope and i'm for it.

thirdly, if you disagree with my number one, then people will soon swtich to ruger as it is the closest thing to the barret (assuming it will have scope like other guns). And if you disable scope on that gun, then people will move perhaps to ak or deagles, creating new overpowered guns. In this case, you'd have to find a certain boundary between which guns do and do not get crosshair.

Frankly, #1 and #2 of my ideas are the best of them all. any one with me?

Zyx has some good points here. Of course these things all should only be added to real mode... i think in normal, the cursors should remain as they are, except (maybe!) for the barret. i think removing the scope from all weapons is a good idea, it also gives an extra aspect for the game to master.

Instead of blacking out half the fekkin screen, think some reastic mode should go into this idea. You can't see a player unless you're aiming at them in realistic, so why not promote that into zooming with the barret?
[IMAGE]
In this picture, let's just pretend that our gothic soldat is on the ground and zooming in on boogie man. This means that anyone outside of the zoom triangle cannot be seen.
I fully support this idea, along with the no cursor for barret.

I'm sorry, but no! I do not like this idea! It is easy to counter a barret if you just have his cross hair blow up to amazing proportions by using an auto. Believe me, the last thing you want while using a barret is an enemy that uses an auto. There is nothing wrong with combat snipers, just because you get schooled by them and don't know how to counter them doesn't mean the barret should be downgraded! The barret is not an easy thing to master, because it has so much precision. This may not make much sense, but your crosshair is constantly bumping around because the enemy will always move. It is hard to hit a moving target with a barret, because it is so precise.

This would be a very cool thing if I did it. It could be used in realistic mode very well.
However it might be hard to do at this point.

imho, the m79 is much more of a problem weapon than the barret.

I would just lower the damage of the barret so that only headshots kill immediately

quote:Originally posted by fed.eag.oI would just lower the damage of the barret so that only headshots kill immediately


Gah, NO!

pls do NOT implement!
but if u will, only to realistic. i beg ya man. pls.

don put all the useless junk in realistic numgun

useless? glad to hear that!
in anyway: Dont implement. Thankyou. : )

You fools... all of you

Don't.. nerf... the barret

The "headshots only kill" idea is completely retarded, since all of you want realism, then you have to make the barret semi-auto and realise that the bullets are so big, that no matter where you hit, you will more or less likely KILL the person you are aiming at. want some more realism? Then no weapon except for the m79 will have a scope. Why? If you are running/flying, it is pretty hard to concentrate on looking through a tiny circle mounted near the barrel of your gun.

Anyway, im just here to defend my views on the barret. But if you do want to implement the idea, don't make a full blackout, perhaps semi-transparent.


So all the barret users out there... start training for the ruger and the m79, or any other high powered/high firing rate weapon before this is implemented, so you won't get murdered when it does.

I don't know if it's already been said, but if this was to be done:

Make it so that you have no cursor while running around, but you have full vision. When you crouch, you get about 65% of vision loss from behind you. Proned should make it about 80% maybe.

edit: oh and yeah, when you're crouched or proned, you get your cursor back.

dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement
dont implement

where does the word ''nerf'' come from?

imho when you use the scope, the parts you cant see shouldnt be black, they should just be like fadish/transparentish so you cant see very well

ah, someone who agrees with me.

nerf came from a dart gun of sorts.. those polystyrene thingies

quote:Originally posted by 117You fools... all of you

Don't.. nerf... the barret

The "headshots only kill" idea is completely retarded, since all of you want realism, then you have to make the barret semi-auto and realise that the bullets are so big, that no matter where you hit, you will more or less likely KILL the person you are aiming at. want some more realism? Then no weapon except for the m79 will have a scope. Why? If you are running/flying, it is pretty hard to concentrate on looking through a tiny circle mounted near the barrel of your gun.

Anyway, im just here to defend my views on the barret. But if you do want to implement the idea, don't make a full blackout, perhaps semi-transparent.


So all the barret users out there... start training for the ruger and the m79, or any other high powered/high firing rate weapon before this is implemented, so you won't get murdered when it does.


The 'tiny circle' would only be used when proning or crouching. Not the whole bloody time!

I think that the scope should just fade away a bit with EVERY weapon u use while moving... the harder u move, the more the scope fades. Since this would just make people camp more with the barret, the barret should have a special threatment like suggested before... if there is a certain part blacked out, then this shouldnt be much of a problem to barret-using people, since the other weapons cant kill u as easy because of the fading scope. Just how i think about it...

quote:Originally posted by numgunpeople! soldat is a 2D GAME!
NOT a 3D, this idea would be good for 3D games, NOT 2D games!

and have u ever been in a barret duel? barret is not just point and shoot, u have to move too or U WILL GET PWNED!
and btw, [CENSORED] YOU! (sry for swearing, but i just felt like it ; D) [CENSORED]!


Actually CS: 2D uses that scope idea with all the guns I think. It's a great idea, I support it. End all this barret n00b crap.

Another idea, what if you can't fire the barret unless you're crouched/prone? That can also help?

I dont think that would help... it would only stimulate people to camp more, and the few barret-attackers u have now would disappear.

use ruger instead... much better weapon in a way. Of course the odds between a good "Rugerer" and a good combat sniper are on the side of the last mentioned. Still one good idea. I wonder what Michal would say

Anything I dont care what it is you do to the barret, it is a total POS and ruins so many games for so many skilled players trying to have a good game only to get bombarded with barret idiots. No big time players use this weapon as a primary for a reason. Every barreter ive seen is either a noob, a stat [CENSORED], or just plain sucks and takes advantage of how unbalanced this damn piece of crap is. Maybe just remove it from the game altogether I wouldnt care. Let the people who think their "skilled combat snipers" (lol right..) whine because their 1 hit noob tubes are gone. Above the waist only should be a 1 shot kill.

BTW, almost ALL (or close to) of non registered users use this thing from what ive seen in pubs and the registered players dont use it as much. I think the registered players should have more say so then the non registered, but that could be a whole nother topic.

1 on 1 a ruger user doesnt stand a chance against an equal skilled barreter. This guns been misused, over used, and abused for way too long. Also if you weakend it considerably it COULD make it harder for idiots to kill through polys. I dont mean to come off so hostile in this post but I cant help it im sick of everyone (including) saying about how this weapon is overpowered unfair etc etc yet it doesnt ever get touched.. its just bs. And to you guys who are saying oh no a barret should be a 1 hit kill no matter what cus thats realistic, well your wrong if you got shot below the waist or in your arm from a straight forward shot your chances of dieing arent extremely high sure you might lose a limb but your not dead. So with all that said and crossing my fingers these completely needed changes get made ill end this post.

quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_THIS IS AN AMAZING IDEA

TYPING IN ALL CAPS TO PROVE HOW AMAZED I AM

AMAZING


i agree lol, i like the idea of where the closer the cursor is to the gosteks, the more invisible it is, but the farther you aim, the more visible it is, there fore making it more of a camping/crouch gun, because in air combat would be much harder with no cursor. LOVING this idea ppl. We def need to concider this.

I'm all for this, totally! It's downright freaking ingenious, even. After reviewing the topic I suggest the following:

Barret possesses no cursor when standing/moving.
Cursor appears when crouched or prone.
Field of vision narrows when crouched; further so when prone.
Guidelines extend from the barrel when crouched/prone to indicate the field of vision's boundaries.
Sniperline (if enabled) is only visible when crouched or prone.
Officially fixing the name of the weapon to the Barrett.

This is what I feel to be an excellent and reasonably "realistic" solution that satisfies both the "Anti-Sniper" and "Anti-Assaulter" views of barret balancing. The field of vision guidelines would be a good addition to realistic mode too--I know I'd play realistic much more frequently if I knew where my field of vision ended.

In the end, what it comes down to is that the barret has been considered a plague by too many for too long, this idea is the best solution conceived of yet, and our Esteemed Lord of Soldat shows much interest.

Even if it would be a little difficult to pull off, I think it's really worth a try. Go for it, MM--it'll make for a nice change of pace when you're tired of debugging anyhow.

Excellent ideas. But that may then underpower the Barret, then people will lame the m79 or ruger. so maybe instead of no cursor, a very large one so that it doesn't always shoot straight ahead, unless you're in prone, where you can't see anything but straight ahead.

I wholeheartedly concur. The barret is a noob weapon, I don't care who uses it. Barret[CENSORED]s just need a little smack, and have their weapon changed a little. I love the idea of the scope thing. One concern though, what will happen to the players out there? Will all the barreters go away or will they stay and suck up their little whimpering and get over it? Or will they just leave? I would love it if they left, but I'd still like the small challenge.

after playing on servers, they arent just a little challenge. With the mix of hackers using the barret, and regular barret users, it is almost impossible to play and have fun (isnt that what this game is about) in the big servers today like u13 and clan public servers. The barret has been misused and over used since the begining of soldat, and since then there has only been one change that barret users can walk right over if they use ir for more then an hour, the bink. The best idea that i have seen here so far is the fading cursor, where if your cursor is closer to your body, the more feignt the cursor is, and the further away the cursor is, the more bold and brighter it gets. This would thereofre make the gun a primary camping weapon, which it was intended to be used for since the begining of its making, no a "fly by" 1 hit kill weapon. That is why this gun is so voerused, people can easily get kills from it using absolutley no skill. Now i will probably here now that the barret takes some skill. Woo, use it for an hour and voila! your running around the map picking off people while doing the worm dodge (which is a bug btw kiss that goodbye when next version comes out).

All in all, this weapon should not be so easy to kill, also cincidering the fact that it kills anywhere on the body, which shouldnt be, it should be waste and higher. LIke what gameover said, if you get hit in the arm/legs etc, you most likley wont die, you will probably loose a limb at most. Thisshould be implemented for the soldat barret also.

oh please, stop complaining about the barret.
All i hear from people nowadays is "Barret is a n00b weapon", "Barret requires no skill", "Barretards are stupid n00bs who won't survive without their barret." (the last one is complete BULLTARD because I used to be a barretard and had other ways of killing people when i lost my barret)

I use the barret, but i also use every other weapon (except for chainsaw and law) as much as i use the barret, and I DON'T FIND BARRET USERS ANNOYING.

what about if a person is in the air and wants to fire? And don't say stuff like 'it's unrealistic' or 'the barret is too powerful'. Well, people in real life don't fly around with little jets, do they?

hackers are hackers, they will always be there. You wan't to sort it out? don't ruin the barret just because you saw a hacker using a barret, go contact the owner of the server.

Camping weapon?

Well whoopdidooda, you're just giving the barretards a new job to make your life harder. Why do you think that at least 60% of the barret user population don't camp? Because they know that:

A) It's annoying
B) It is a cheap tactic to pick of enemies before they can see you.

So why force them to camp?

Absolutely no skill? Have you ever considered how tough some shots can be to pull off? How to predict where a target is going and how to make sure there are no obstructions? Obviously, you have never USED a barret before, and that is mostly why people are one sided towards the barret. What if all the barret users attacked YOUR favourite weapon and nerfed it to the point that it forces you to watch a heat meter and stay still when firing?

So i shoot an arm off you, either way it'll be pretty hard to fire back at me, let alone change your clip? I shoot you in the leg, ooh, what are you going to do? Hobble around the map? No, u can't.

And barret users can use other weapons in the same way they use a barret. Let's say they all start using ruger, getting headshots every time. Same thing, except it's 2 shots instead of one. And I can almost certainly bet that every barret hater in the forum who doesn't use a ruger, will instantly turn on the ruger and start flaming it.

That One guy, you are just being selfish. All you want to do is get rid of the barret forever, when you forget that if they leave, others will take their place and start using weapons that you will hate, and eventually FLAME, if the people who hate your weapon don't flame you first.

And oh look, signs of anti-ruger and anti-m79 activists are popping up. No weapon is safe from being flamed.

Its a great idea, but experienced players (the ones who know how to operate mods) could simply go into the files and replace the "invisible" cursor with one of his own. If it werent for this your plan would be flawless.

There are three types of people on this forum.

Those who believe the Barret is fine.

Those who hate the gun and want people to stop camping.

Those who hate the gun and want people to stop running.


THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN OVERPOPULAR GUN, GET OVER IT[

BlackBlu, if the aim/sniper line is actually disabled, they can't just "mod" it to let them see it. Disabled = turned off, not hidden.

To 177, and everyone else as well:

You may personally not find the Barret to be an annoying weapon, but there are many, many people who do.

I myself do not find the sniping/camping aspects of it annoying, but I do find the assaults to be annoying. I also know the "barretard experience", although I'll admit it was back when SOCOM was the only secondary. However, the barret has changed little since then; and I still find myself to this day hitting the target with relative ease, even on shots that I was certain I'd botched, whenever the occasion arises that I do have to fire a barret while running around. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be suprised if my accuracy with the barret was higher when running than when camping!

However, in the end, all of that text up there means absolutely nothing--and it's because to use such statements of personal experience as an argument is simply stretching an individual case over the entire population of players. As such, nothing we say about what we think of the difficulty of using the barret can be considered a viable argument because we alone are not capable of truly knowing the experiences of other individuals.

To more accurately assess the situation at hand, one must look at the big picture, instead of shifting the argument to unsupportable and ultimately minor details. The very same thing applies to the tendency to look at individual, isolated scenarios. What is happening on the macro level?

I think it can generally be agreed upon that:
A disproportionately large number of players make heavy, if not exclusive, use of the barret. This is a clear fact to anyone that uses the public servers.
The barret's effectiveness as a weapon is generally consistent, regardless of environment or circumstances, despite being clearly designed as a weapon with possibly the most unique purpose. Due to the nature of the barret, every situation is as simple as a "point, click, kill" before the other guy--thus no strategy or thinking is involved, stagnating gameplay.
Now you might think, "Ooooooh, two points; that's negligible," but the truth is that these two points have an enormous impact on the Soldat gameplay experience.

The reason why is for two things: The Instakiller Loop and the Role-Based Weapons Approach that has apparently started taking some semblance of influence in the actual weapons balancing for the next version of Soldat. For those who never read about or don't recall these ideas, I have supplied them below.


The Instakiller Loop is mostly explained in the first paragraph of this excerpt explaining my personal criteria for what makes someone a "n00b", "average", or "experienced" in Soldat. However, the entirety of the excerpt is important to the topic at hand.
quote:Novice players use instakill weapons exclusively, regardless of map, opponents, whatever. They are constants, a coefficient in a function that has no variables. My theory regarding the majority of these players is that they believe the "best" weapons overall are the ones that kill in one shot, simply because everything else takes more than one shot (and thus must be better by default), and/or they lack the creativity and sensibility to identify a situation as being better handled with a different weapon. Since they don't know any better, they generally keep on using their one choice over, and over, and over.
This happens to many, many players (especially casual ones, most likely), and once the numbers swell large enough, you end up with them comprising the majority of the population in many public servers. This ultimately creates a gameplay nightmare that consists of players rarely accomplishing more than spawning, firing one or two shots (that don't necessarily hit, of course), and then being killed in one hit, only to respawn and repeat the process. The process often doesn't take as long as ten seconds to cycle through. This is what I consider to be the Instakiller Loop that is the bane of Soldat. Thus, while generally not a real threat to higher level players when encountered alone, in numbers Novice players are capable of effectively ruining the gameplay experience through the Instakiller Loop.
Beginners at Soldat typically start at this level (myself included), and so the number of people entering this level generally exceeds the number of people ascending to the next step.

Average players are those who come to realize for themselves that, in one way or another, the Novice style of play is an inferior way to play the game; I myself graduated to this level when I realized I was trapped in the Instakiller Loop. It is at this point that the player starts to experiment with the other weapons, until they become accustomed enough to one of them to use it with some accuracy; not as easily done as said, considering the exclusiveness of weapons in the Novice level means that they are not accustomed to using the autos or other non-instakillers. However, although the scope of the weaponry utilized by the player widens, it is not by a truly considerable amount; the habit of exclusively working with one gun almost all the time still remains, but the instakilling factor has been removed, effectively ending the player's contribution to the Instakiller Loop. I myself used the ruger almost exclusively when I was at this level.

Experienced players are those who personally come to realize and accept the idea that no weapon is truly suitable to be used exclusively. At this point, the player begins experimenting again, this time taking note of what maps and situations are best for certain weapons when combined with their personal style of play. Embracing all the weapons, the Experienced player becomes far more versatile and dynamic than than players in lower levels, making them generally better players overall.
However, this does not mean that the Experienced player is a "pro" or "leet" soldat. Due to the very wide scope of weaponry used, in addition to varying play styles and overall amount of time spent playing and how it is played (clan member or not, casual or hardcore, etc), the range in skill among Experienced players can vary greatly. I consider myself to be at this level.

Role-Based Weapon Balancing is something I covered more recently, in this passage that I've taken from the Weapon Balance Discussion forum.
quote:It seems to me that most people, when they think of the ideal weapon balance, imagine being able to use any gun against any other gun in any situation, and always have the same chances of survival. Fortunately for me, I eventually got to the point in my development as a Soldat player in which I realized that no single gun was meant to be capable of being used exclusively. The only way to achieve any level of fairness in the "Weapon A vs Weapon B" scenario that so many people bring up is to eliminate any and all choices of weapon, forcing every player to use the same and only gun.

What's worse, is that even then it is not truly fair; someone is bound to complain that it's too hard to kill anyone because the defensive capabilities of the gun are better than the offensive, or something similar.

If a game of Soldat is to have so many as two (let alone fourteen) weapons to choose from, some of the weapons must have advantages and disadvantages against the other guns in varying situations. The narrow-minded approach of taking individual scenarios and dissecting them cannot possibly lead to a balanced weapon setup; attempting such is like trying to paint a work of art in the pointilism style without ever stepping back to see how all the little dots are coming together.

What all those little dots make when combined into a single image is what must be focused upon. We must see, regardless of whether Weapon A can beat Weapon B with relative ease under such and such a set of circumstances, that all of the weapons come together to create an environment where every situation has at least one weapon suited for it--without any one weapon being suited for every situation.

Before continuing, I'd like to thank those who took the time to read all that, as it is quite an extensive amount of text.

Anyhow, notice how those two concepts compliment each other; in short, by balancing weapons in a way that renders them variable in their usefulness across different scenarios, an overall fair balance is achieved that also promotes a constantly changing gameplay experience; this continuing variation in gameplay drastically reduces the unenjoyable and ultimately boredom-inducing monotony of the Instakiller Loop, and thus enhances the entertainment value of the game on a global level.

The suggestions that have been made here serve to nullify the monotonous "exclusivity-friendly" qualities of the barret and promote the the variation of the gameplay experience--thus, one comes to the rational conclusion that the implementation of the ideas presented in this thread are indeed justified.

Lastly, I acknowledge that I did not respond to many of the points raised by 117; the reason for such is clear if reading this post has resulted in an understanding of my thinking toward this issue. In the event that it is not, I state it as such: Such points are not only as fully irrelevent as the arguments that they counter, but do not even address any aspect of my previous statements, and thus present no threat to the integrity of said statements; on the contrary, to address the points made by 117 would only serve to contradict my principles regarding the handling of the subject at hand, and taint this post with an air of defensiveness that implies desperation, which itself implies a self-acknowledged weakness of argument on the part of myself, the author of this post.

I offer my gracious thanks to those who have read this rediculously long post that I felt compelled to make in order to better explain my principles and reasoning behind my position in the issue at hand, and I sincerely hope that you have learned something from the experience--even if the lesson is something to the effect of me being a nutjob with too much time on his hands. In the event that so much as that is too much to hope for, you can at least be assured that I have spent far more time with this post than yourselves.


EDIT: Caught sight of a grammatical error just after posting this monster.

I think barretards are peeps who camp with sniper, that takes 2 days to master. Moving with a sniper takes a little bit longer like a month to master. True the barret pisses me off sometimes, but as long as the same person doesnt use it over and over again im fine with it.

all i want to say to u all:

FUKOFF AND AND FUK YEAH!

(a happy barreter)

To YoMamasMama:

I don't mind your opinion, but honestly, think about the future. remember there will ALWAYS be n00bs out there to COMPLAIN about every single weapon... eventually, there will be NO weapon. My probable order:

Barret (already on it's way to death, cos of WHINERS)
m79
ruger
Law
Minigun
MP5
Spas
Knife
Chainsaw
deagles
Socom
AK74
Steyr
Minimi

quote:Originally posted by Dumbassquote: *chokes fluffy* DIE *****! DIE!
AND LEAVE THE BARRET ALONE!
man, first they say camping is bad, now they say combat sniping is bad!
**** YOU *****!
Nice blatant flame there bucko, n00b moment anyone?
I support this idea, despite the fact that I'm an offense Barrettard.


dumbass is your avatar a transformer? it's just been bugging me

Its VR Temjin, from the Virtua On series, and Virtua On, Mars Mission. SOm37h1Ng l1k3 7h47

get a life ya'll.. teh barret is here to stay, and that settles it! now, instead of whining about, find a way to counter it!..'
Anyway, just a suggestion!

@Echo Trail: Stop spamming and stop being retarded. in case you haven't noticed, this is a countering discussion thread. If you have nothing useful to say, then don't try and show 'how smart' you are by saying irrelevant, smartarse comments.
@Numgun: Stop being a biased barretard, spamming, and abusing forum members. [/backseatmoderatoring]

quote:Originally posted by BlackBluRRRIts a great idea, but experienced players (the ones who know how to operate mods) could simply go into the files and replace the "invisible" cursor with one of his own. If it werent for this your plan would be flawless.


True. All that the barreters would have to do is mod the original barret to have a laserline, and they'd be made. They'd also know where other barreters are hiding, which is currently what I do now to countersnipers.

*flushes cpt. ben down the toilet*

bye bye whiner! ^_^

look at it this way:

scenario 1: A camper is crouching on a hilltop, with a barret. A person with a ruger dashes up the other side of the hill. The barreter simply swings his aim around, and the rugerist falls dead with his face blown to pieces.

This is what it is currently.

but if we implement this suggestion:

Scenario 2: A barreter is crouching on the same hill, scoped. his view is the same as in the example given by the topic starter. A rugerist comes up behind him, and pulls off two crucial shots. The barreter dies, purely because of not being able to see the rugerist.

isn't it fair to let ther be an actual fight instead of just the barretard always winning?

i say implement this, but with some changes:

instead of having the entire area around the scope blacked out, simply have it blurred.

instead of just a conical vision area, the immediate surroundings should be displayed also.


EDIT: numgun, do *try* to say something intelligent.

I'm with SPARTAN_III. I don't ever recall MM ever trying to blur anything before but I don't think the code should be too hard to program.

Actually Keron Cyst, form what I have learned programming C# for asp.net and some programs. It will be quite challenging if done effectively.

From what I gather you want to see the person but not be able to shoot until you can see him clearly. Thus the blur would have to be un predictable. if you have an area this big ---> <--- you know to shoot the middle to hit it. Thus taking away the whole purpose of the topic. So to fix the problem the blur must be random and un predictable. Thus causing video lag on less powerful systems.

I personally like anything that will stop people from using the sniper as if you can run around in real life and get perfect shots with that kind of gun.

For those who do not support this (not using names): this shouldn?t mess up your aimbot, although we are still mad at you.

awesome idea
except, i dont think it should be like your picture where the guy is jumping and in scope mode, scope mode should be only there when on the ground

Will better substitute this "scope" for a red line comes of barreter.

When you see that red line crossing you, it is because you are in a aim of barreter.

What the hell, everybody's saying that were whining about every weapon, what the hell is wrong with you retards; I'm satisfyed with every other weapon than the Barret!

Go get brains.

I think the barret is for the most part, fine the way it is. If you take the time and use it all the time then of course you are going to start slaughtering everyone else with it, just like you would with any other gun. But the thing about the barret is if you miss once you are pretty much screwed and with the movment AC hitting stuff can be hard. So to fluffy i say: learn to doge the shots better, lieing down in the air and jetting around is a good way to make yourself harder to hit. and then when they miss, go all out.

ok lets make all the weapons what there like in real life, and if you are hit once, you are dead :D that means the minigun can't be fire from standing up

how bout this. when the barret user moves the cursor it gets bigger, like bink. and then it takes a few seconds tho go small again

I think that's actually a great idea. Having bink caused by any force acting on the soldat, be it jumping, jetting or just being knocked up.

This should probably be kept seperate from regular bink, making a new category of "Movement Bink".

I know that "Movement accuracy" is already present, but it doesn't really seem to do justice to the fact that you need a very stable position to fire off a Barret or any other precision weapon. I believe it is only sensitive to whether the movement keys are pressed down.

Movement-bink should be a relatively small value that dissipates quickly, otherwise the simple act of walking could end up creating a cursor the size of your house. Moving about should result in a low-level bink that disappears soon anfter stopping. If possible, the magnitude should also be relative to the force acting on the soldat; running causing less move-bink than a grenade blast or falling off a cliff, etc.

Movement bink could probably be a toggle, or perhaps scaled for different weapons (being 0 for most). It would work in conjunction with regular bink, not replacing it, but adding to it.

I am not sure what its effects would be in relation to movement-accuracy, whether one might make the other redundant. Perhaps they could be combined into general movement-sensitivity?

Ok, I'm tired of people friggin whining about the barret! The beta testers did what they could to fix it, but you know, no one's gonna ever be happy, no matter how hard they work.

Personally, I thank the beta dudes. I beleive they did a GREAT job with the weapons. Great idea for the knife and the barret, I have no problems.

Now, these stupid noobs that can't adapt to the changes of the barret, go play something else, you helpless losers. Go play GunZ : The Duel, then you'll see unbalanced weapons.

That's my 2 cents, I'm out.

-That One Guy

IT'S A GREAT IDEA!!!

AND HEELLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOO! Do you guys know what snipers are? Go search in the dictionary.

A barret is not suposed to be used while running. SNIPERS DONT RUN AND FIRE, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDNT BE CALLED SNIPERS!!!!

Is it that hard to understand? I like the idea that, with barret you can see everybody on the map while being stand up, but no scoop. You only get scoop when you crouch, but when you do this there are invisible lines that only allows you to see inside a determinate angle. although you still see the scenario, you cant see players. and when you go prone, line of sight is bigger and angle is also much bigger(more then double. this will make of people who use barrets real snipers. And it will be almost like an honour to manage it. *if he uses barret, he is good*)

my god, i can't believe i read all that. kudos to the guy who started this whole thing, ur original idea was the one i liked the best ('cept for that whole extra button thing, gotta hand it to the other guys for the crouch/prone approach). i also like that faded scope thing where it gradually becomes transparent based on the distance between player and scope. i'm not too sure about the limited range of vision, since it would make sniping even more difficult than the originally proposed idea. i reckon that feature should be implemented in realistic mode, but if they do make it global, i support the idea of blurring the rest of the screen.

anyway, i'm with matapatos on this one, i've always wanted the sniper rifle to be a difficult weapon to use. but it shouldn't be augmented to the point that it just ain't fun to use anymore. thas really the only reason why i like using the barret. that and those kick ass impossible shots i like to pull off, like shooting someone who's outside of the screen.

I'm with Outer God on that. I too have paid my dues and read the 5 pages, and hopefully I can make an informed argument.

The "blacked-out-cone" idea is not a bad one. I might even suggest instead, that since most sniper rifles come with a scope of a fixed magnification, (and that soldat's based on a real-time openGL/direct3D rendering engine) that when you are scoped in at close range, EVERYTHING is displayed, magnified like crazy, and as you move your "aimpoint" further and further away from your player, your view zooms out and magnifies less. This would give you a better "feel" for being zoomed in and would also be an effective way to reduce the player's range of sight when scoped in.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Barrett's accuracy be non-existant when the sniper is airborne, in motion, or being struck by bullets. I do not believe the Barrett is overpowered. In fact, I believe it is LUDICROUSLY underpowered. The real Barrett, designed by Ronnie Barrett, is a 10-shot SEMI-AUTOMATIC "anti-materials" rifle used to take out the engine block of a jeep. It fires a .50 calibre BMG(1/2" diameter Browning Machine Gun) bullet. A "Match Grade" BMG round is a 750-grain bullet that travels at Mach 3.7 and contains the equivalent energy necessary to lift one and a half standard-sized automobiles 1 metre into the air.

Yes, you will turn into a cloud of blood when this round hits you, and it doesn't have to be a head shot. In addition, I must mention again, the Barrett is a SEMI-AUTOMATIC weapon, which means it fires every time you pull the trigger, as fast as you can pull it. As a result, there should be a tremendous amount of bink incurred UNLESS you are firing from the prone position (which is how it is meant to be used IRL). The other thing that can make this gun more difficult is the fact that sniper rifles that use this large round have a tendancy to kick up a huge cloud of dust from the ground in front of them, unless a proper sniping location is chosen. This cloud of dust often serves to give away a sniper's position, along with the loud noise.

Now... Moving on to the issue of Barrett overuse:

The reason the Barrett dominates so well has nothing to do with it's firepower. It is the levels themselves. They are often made with wide open spaces suited to flying and sniping. Anyone with any common sense in such levels with such sparse cover is going to choose a sniper rifle. As a result, a variety of levels with close-quarter combat should be offered to appeal to users of automatics and shortranged weaponry, and you would probably find that many snipers would give up their barrett for something more practical in CQB. There is a place and time for ALL of the weapons in Soldat, but the problem is that the great majority of the levels offer skewed advantages to barrett aficionados.

Simple idea:
Make it very accurate, no matter where they are moving. Make the bink VERY high. Because now, when they're moving, the movement accuracy and bink combined can cause the bullet to be accurate. And with the startup time, the opponent will have a chance to bink the barret user.

i like the second idea but i dont like how the barret dosnt have a aiming thing unless you scope..

Sounds like an nice idea, you will need to be more carefull when you snipe now when you dont see whats around you when you stare into that scope.

Why not just have the cursor disappear while standing or moving crouched/prone? The cursor only appears in prone while on the ground, so you can't just be falling prone to attack people, you have to be stable on the ground.

Thats my opinion.

I think that this idea is too big of a change - no other guns affect the visibility of the cursor, and this seems going too far. I suggest an extension to the movement bink idea - take out the startup, and make moving your cursor bink you (as well as walking around, etc). That way, if someone sneaks up on you, you can't just swing around and fire, unless you want your shot to go in a random direction. If you want an accurate shot, you have to wait a bit while the bink wears off - effectively a startup time, without being too forced. Also, make the cursor permanently slightly binked while standing, less so when crouching, and not at all when prone. Presto - you can still fight however you want with the barret, but the only way to ensure perfect accuracy is to stay prone and not move at all, which makes you vulnerable to sneak attacks.

anyways, i think the idea is nice!

The idea of the scope for a Barret is good. If it was implemented, I'm assuming you'd be able to see yourself and the scope of the barret, not just the scope. But overall, if this is or isn't implemented there would still be people whinging and whining about the guns being uneven. I don't think that everyone will ever ACTUALLY be happy with the weapons set.
It's a nice idea though, and it looks good.

--
Sticky_Soldier

ok i will say it again:SOLDAT IS A [CENSORED]ING SHOOT&RUN 2D ARCADE GAME NOT A TACTICAL RAVEN SHIELD LIKE SHOOTER FOR [CENSORED]S SAKE

I like the idea, with some modifications and fair implementation it could work.

it seems really cool and all, but wouldnt it basically be simpler and just as effective to have the barret only be able to be fired from the croutching or prone position? like the LAW.

oh c'mon.. u guys can't still be debating this?!
The beta testers were asked to do a job, and they did. end of the story... Just get used to it, 'cause it's obviously not going to change.
I felt like you guys to start with, i felt the barret was ruined, but then i just played a bit with it, and now i enjoy using it. in fact i like it better than the old one. The trigger delay makes you feel like your sitting with this huge cannon. And when it finally fires... ooh.. i'm shivering.
Anyway, the delay is here to stay..

quote:The real Barrett, designed by Ronnie Barrett, is a 10-shot SEMI-AUTOMATIC "anti-materials" rifle used to take out the engine block of a jeep. It fires a .50 calibre BMG(1/2" diameter Browning Machine Gun) bullet. A "Match Grade" BMG round is a 750-grain bullet that travels at Mach 3.7 and contains the equivalent energy necessary to lift one and a half standard-sized automobiles 1 metre into the air.

And it's impossible to fire that thing when standing, much less moving unless you double/triple your weight. It could be possible, yet stupid, to fire when crouched (you might need some support to your shoulder).

And if you need things to be realistic, the minigun would tear you apart the moment you started firing it because broken belt links would fly at you and slash your flesh before you notice it. The recoil is a secondary thing compared to that one.

Hand grenades should kill in a 5 metre radius, which they obviously don't in Soldat.

It's a game, alright?

quote:Originally posted by Tikkizquote:The real Barrett, designed by Ronnie Barrett, is a 10-shot SEMI-AUTOMATIC "anti-materials" rifle used to take out the engine block of a jeep. It fires a .50 calibre BMG(1/2" diameter Browning Machine Gun) bullet. A "Match Grade" BMG round is a 750-grain bullet that travels at Mach 3.7 and contains the equivalent energy necessary to lift one and a half standard-sized automobiles 1 metre into the air.

And it's impossible to fire that thing when standing, much less moving unless you double/triple your weight. It could be possible, yet stupid, to fire when crouched (you might need some support to your shoulder).

And if you need things to be realistic, the minigun would tear you apart the moment you started firing it because broken belt links would fly at you and slash your flesh before you notice it. The recoil is a secondary thing compared to that one.

Hand grenades should kill in a 5 metre radius, which they obviously don't in Soldat.

It's a game, alright?


interesting, based on that fact shooting when you stand or run would bring you down and get hurt, as well as the shot would fly in a random direction..

as well as the scoop thing would be interesting, but so long everything have been good, so these are just suggestions...

Dammit, i hate when my compy hangs up and dont behave as it should, when i posted my first reply in here, it said the thread whas up to two pages, oh well.......

I had an idea earlier for the barret where you have to crouch to be able to fire and prone to bring up the scope...

But now when i have read all the three remaining pages i missed, i must say i like the idea of no cursor when standing/walking and all that.....

Holy crap, this is still alive?

Maybe this should be stickied, sheesh

The problem for me is in RSF. In regular soldat, the old barret was a little noobish because of 1-hit kill. But in RSF, a ruger in the hands of a good player is also a one hit kill. So ruger (at least before the huge bink showed up, I haven't paid attention since then) has been considered a pretty unfair/noobish weapon. The only advantage that the Barret has over the Ruger in realistic is essentially the scope, so it was always a very tactical weapon even though you could assault in the air with it, and in RSF was always used by only good players who could move around and take advantage of the scope to beat a ruger. It takes quite a bit of skill to dodge with a barret in RSF when a 3-4 shots from an auto will kill you (permanently because it's survival). With the charge up time, the barret is completely useles, especially against a ruger. By the time you've charged up the barret, the rugerteer is in normal scope range!

In realistic, ruger should be closer to what it is in standard, it should have much less bink and a decent rate of fire but 2-shot kill even if one of those is a headshot.

To add, I like the OP's idea: you still get a scope for sniping, and you can assault without a chargeup time but you get no crosshair. I feel like I could learn to fight without a cursor, but it would be very difficult. Wouldn't it be easy to use a simply hack to just re-enable the crosshair client side though?

Fluffy: we're slowly making every weapon worse. One weapon somebody complains about so it's weakened, then there's another weapon that's too powerful. So they all become worse. Why not let them all be good?

To Recap, I think this is the Perfect solution for the barrett:

No Charge-up time. Barrett can be fired as usual, maybe even a little less time between shots (it's a semiauto after all).

No crosshair/sniperline unless you are crouched/prone and on the ground (touching a vector that is less than 90 degrees of horizontal). Crouching/proning introduces little lines on the screen (wider for crouching). You can see the whole terrain but can only see players that are within the scope range. If somebody is sneaking up behind you, good luck: you'll just have to hear it.


Another alternative is quickly wearing off cursor bink caused by sudden movements of the soldaten or gun, so if you are going to turn jets on or spin the barrett around 180 degrees to take out an assaulter, you will need to hang a moment as the bink wears off before it is possible to aim effectively.

--The Lag

For the love of holy monkey potatoes, I haven't said anything about any other weapon! The only gun that needs some changing is the Barret. Well, M79 is a bit unfair, too, but that's another story. I'm completely satisfyed with every other weapon.

Yes, but once the barret is nerfed a new weapon will stand out. It seems to me that you just campaign to get the types of weapons hit that don't fit your playing style. A lot times it seems likes when people say the barret is lame or overpowered, it's not really that they think the barret is overpowered but that they think the very idea of an instant kill weapon is overpowered. (Since they use autos, and get shot by the barret, they think wth theres no way I could have avoided that. Yeah... but the barreter has to hit. And he might have followed a different strategy).

My main qualm is that although the barret is now finally balanced in arcade mode it is now way UNDERpowered in realistic mode (it was always balanced fine for realistic).