All of this "stfu about the new changes" crap is getting annoying. Who says MM and the beta team know exactly whats right for us? While we appreciate their hard work, their attitude given towards the audience implies arrogance. I'm not saying they're causing the problem. Many of us are being pretty immature about how we go about complaining. But there is plenty of INFORMATION that everyone ignores. All of the "veterans" and people in-the-know say things like "stfu, get over it, you're a stupid newbie who doesnt know anything about soldat". Then the newbies complaints are ignored, as they are drowned out in a flame war.
A lot of what I am getting is that it seems like the anti-whining people pretend that there are no problems at all, or the changes were perfect, and that anyone who disagrees is stupid. I know (hope) none of you think that, but that is certainly the attitude many of you show. Its what a lot of less known people think when they read some of your responses.

Now im not saying some complaints arent stupid. Don't post "OMG I QUIT SOLDAT". Be constructive. People put a lot of time into this version of Soldat, so give them a chance. But for you others, dont reply with "I'm glad you left." Thats like saying "I've hated you all along and now everyone gets to see how much of an ass I am." Seriously, this arrogance is sickening. All I see is people ignoring legitamate concerns. There are DEFINTELY a lot of bugs in this (and each new) version. There are a TON of people complaining about it, and the majority response is "nope, i didnt see it before so you are wrong." Guess what? That "majority response" is a minority. It's a small group of soldat veterans who think they've seen it all, and assume thier experiences are the only ones that are reliable.

I dont want to insert any personal complaints in this thread, but this is the best example.
One of the main things I am refering to is hit registration. Yes, "the net code hasnt been changed." We heard. But what about the facts? There are MANY players who can testify to the increase in this. Ask any good sawer if his hits are registering less. Ask any good nader whether or not its taking no less than 3 nades to kill a single person in EVERY server EVERY day.
But listen. I KNOW that this is a controversial topic, and thats not the focus of this thread. Maybe we are wrong. Maybe every single server we play in is laggy, maybe every player with 10 ping on a server only a few dozen miles away from us are still managing to lag. Either way, why don't people even CONSIDER our concerns? Every related complaint has been dismissed with a "the net code hasnt been changed, therefore you are wrong and have been hallucinating".

I am seriously considering the possibility that maybe we ARE wrong, and things have just been unlucky for us for a while. But my point is, whatever happened to respect? Newer players are immature, while older players are arrogant.



I don't even know what I'm trying to accomplish. I keep forgetting that not all people can look at two sides of an issue, understand that the person we insult is just another person just like yourself, or try not to be annoying all the time. I thought they were pretty simple things to do. Now I sound arrogant. See, no one is perfect. Why did I bother typing this?

Stop anti-anti-whining.

i think this will turn into a flame/spam thread.

But, he does have a point. As Chakra pointed out (i can['t remember when) Michal was forced to revert weapons because of problems in gameplay (something to do with beta testing 1.2 and then ending up with a camper only barret). I'm not sure, but it could be that the changes would be reverted, but i doubt whining would help. Maybe if hosters started emailing Michal that less people are playing, that would get his attention

but whining, (even though i want to) will not help.

In my opinion, it seems that the worthwhile criticisms have been/are being considered, while those who are simply repetative and nonsensical (e.g. OMG you ruined my barret/knife/Soldat in genral) get just what they put out in terms of nonsensical responces. In my own experience it defiantely does NOT take three nades to kill a person in EVERY server EVERY day, so once more repetative responces can't always be taken at word. I'd sooner attribute that to server issues or your own internet connection.

I'd say that you're wrong only in the sense that you think everything you say is being ignored. I know I'm one to shoot down plenty of barret/knife/balance related topics, or those of similar status, yet if issues such as net code or lag in game cannot be addressed at the current time, what is the point of raising the matter again and again? MM has taken notice of such matters. If you're not even sure why you even posted this topic, it doesn't exactly help your arguement. What you see as arrogance, imo, is nothing more than an attempt to please the mass of soldat rather than individual portions of the community.

We can't make people like this game, as hard as we may try. If someone wants to quit ,what are we supposed to say? "Oh, so sorry we ruined your good times!" Something along those lines? Please...if Soldat had to get ther permission of each and every person playing then it would never move forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the public get a chance to try out some of the propsoed changes? Weren't there a few rounds of public beta testing? If so, then I feel even less for those who dislike the current version and failed to speak up.

Edit: Public beta balance topic here - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=28589

Only two pages long. Sad, since everyone seems to have an opinion on balance after the version is released. If people don't like the new version, they had the chance to speak up against it.

Edit 2: Another beta balane topic - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=29012

Another two page wonder topic about beta testing.
Funny how I don't see a single post from you in either topic if the isse of the public vs beta team opinion is so important.

I dont agree with all the changes in soldat swarmer, but doesn't it get annoying when people continue whining and never shut up after things have already been discussed, okey sure most of the peoples hits in soldat dont 'register' but how is whining about it in every post they make in the forum going to help them? It only psises people off, the best they could do is wait for the next version, here is an example:

DeLarge: Lol, I am so literate, I use commas and periods, therefore I am smart, I have been using a computer since I was 3 years old, and I think that using Weapon Modifications is cheating, I am definately right because I use commas and periods and I know how to use big words. So I think WM should be completely removed from soldat.

Now we all know that WM isn't ever going to be removed from soldat but Delarge still continues to make hotmail accounts and adds me to msn to tell me WM is cheating after I block him every time, this is how annoying it is when people whine on the forum.

quote:Originally posted by frogboyStop anti-anti-whining.


Stop anti-anti-anti whining.

Yes, people have to shut their pieholes and think twice as a plaintiff. Michal should be congratulated for mending with the Barrett and other changes.

Several good points.

Swarm is infact right. People put down other peoples experiences and justify that by saying their own was totally different. Not that of course, when we all play soldat we'll experience the same exact things. But, just because 1 person says what he saw was totally fine, and what 10 people say as totally bugged up and that something is wrong, that totally doesnt mean theres no problem. I know some people arent very intelligent at pointing out these problems, but as the veterans of these forums, you should at least try to be reasonable at approaching these complaints ~ They are infact, another player whom you're trying to bring into favor of changes, no? Beta testers were chosen to help make a version everyone liked, and I think as part of your goal, you should be reasoning with players on their problems when they cant say it in the most preferable matter. Just another fact, alot of people arent intelligent enough to read and get things done properly. They have no patience, even mine has run out. Dont infer that putting them down is going to solve their problems. You guys are practicly the creators of soldat, with that you're almost kind of the help line. Id hate to see how it would go if you actually were.

Another good point made, Beta Testers cant do everything for the people. I'm pretty sure everyone should be able to realize the work the beta testers have to go through not only trying to make a version everyone likes and then being shot down because everyone wants to flame and whine with you guys. The public testing idea, was infact a terrific idea. I even tried to make my own contributions, but to be honest it felt like I was telling a crowd something with their backs turned to me. I guess no one cared for my ideas. IMO, I think releasing a soldat 1.3.1 beta, or something such as that first before the real deal would have been more intelligent. People would actually have RESPONDED to the changes, because they were looking at their new version right there, but they had a much bigger chance to suggest their changes. This may be more work, but if it gets rid of the frustration and bugs with each new version, its worth it. Its only another idea anyways.

DeLarge, we're all grateful for michal and what he does for us, im sure 50% of us have a closet with his poster on the wall with candles every where to do our daily worshipping. But, we cant be grateful for what we dont want. Its like a guy asking for a new t shirt for christmas and getting a dress, and saying afterwards "Holy [CENSORED]! Um...Thanks alot! I totally love this new dress, its perfect, and I am so going to where it everyday. (Which he does)" Im sure thats a small metaphor for what some of us do around here with each soldat version. Regardless though, while some of us should show some more appreciation towards his work, we also need to tell him sometimes hes wrong and that he should fix things. Imo, putting more work into fixing soldat, would probably cast down so many complainers. The weapon balance is alot more fixable then bugs, we cant really fly in there and fix them ourselves, we're dependant on michal to listen to us and fix them up asap.

quote:Originally posted by The GeologistIn my opinion, it seems that the worthwhile criticisms have been/are being considered, while those who are simply repetative and nonsensical (e.g. OMG you ruined my barret/knife/Soldat in genral) get just what they put out in terms of nonsensical responces. In my own experience it defiantely does NOT take three nades to kill a person in EVERY server EVERY day, so once more repetative responces can't always be taken at word. I'd sooner attribute that to server issues or your own internet connection.

I'd say that you're wrong only in the sense that you think everything you say is being ignored. I know I'm one to shoot down plenty of barret/knife/balance related topics, or those of similar status, yet if issues such as net code or lag in game cannot be addressed at the current time, what is the point of raising the matter again and again? MM has taken notice of such matters. If you're not even sure why you even posted this topic, it doesn't exactly help your arguement. What you see as arrogance, imo, is nothing more than an attempt to please the mass of soldat rather than individual portions of the community.

We can't make people like this game, as hard as we may try. If someone wants to quit ,what are we supposed to say? "Oh, so sorry we ruined your good times!" Something along those lines? Please...if Soldat had to get ther permission of each and every person playing then it would never move forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the public get a chance to try out some of the propsoed changes? Weren't there a few rounds of public beta testing? If so, then I feel even less for those who dislike the current version and failed to speak up.

Edit: Public beta balance topic here - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=28589

Only two pages long. Sad, since everyone seems to have an opinion on balance after the version is released. If people don't like the new version, they had the chance to speak up against it.

Edit 2: Another beta balane topic - http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=29012

Another two page wonder topic about beta testing.
Funny how I don't see a single post from you in either topic if the isse of the public vs beta team opinion is so important.


well: "What you see as arrogance, imo, is nothing more than an attempt to please the mass of soldat rather than individual portions of the community."
if you are trying to please a mass of people like this community, you should start with the little guy who is really pissed you should say something like "yes hit detection is really annoying and MM is working on it right now so you just need to wait a bit" and then others will say, gee that guy is not the ass i thought he was he kept that topic from turning into a flaming, hate filled [CENSORED] heap

oh and you forgot the actually topic thats sticied in the wm section and add all three up and you have a total of six pages, and i have to say, they never really solved anything.

..back on topic, it's kinda a unwritten rule to not whine so much so soon after the release of Soldat.

Why? Well i've been around 6-7 releases of Soldat, and on just about every occasion the same pattern occurs.
New people come here to whine or praise,
old vets come back briefly to share coins of wisdom,
regulars will try to keep the calm and/or troll,
and then theres the quitters and anti-whiners.

And on every occasion you'll see alot of people vowing how they'll quit Soldat, and come back days or weeks later, or how a weapon sucks one day, and is perfect the next.
People need 'time' to get used to things. It may take a short amount of time to get used to a weapon a first time, but to not only re-learn it, but forget what you learned last time takes effort; reprogramming the very reflexes of your muscles.




Most of this is obviously related to balance, but anything else that happens to pop up in that short amount of time gets a little mixed up with the crowd.

When it comes to bugs, well, things like what you've just said...

"But what about the facts? There are MANY players who can testify to the increase in this. Ask any good sawer if his hits are registering less. Ask any good nader whether or not its taking no less than 3 nades to kill a single person in EVERY server EVERY day."

...gotta admit that sounds bizarre to me. If anything i'm finding nades even more reliable than ever, and the saw has always been questionable to hit, but never as much as you people are saying. It really ain't us you should be telling though, it's Michal. Because as far as i'm aware, he doesn't know this problem exists. If you want to do something about it, gather more evidence, opinions from others who've experienced it, anything you can, and pitch it to Michal or a member of the beta team.

Well chakra, thats what you're finding. About 10 other people unlike you for every 1 person who have no problems, are finding things much different. I beleive alot of people aim for the actual soldat over trying to aim where hes going to be a second later.

Well maybe it's time for a little self-experimentation luv. First thing to acknowledge is that Michal is human, and gawd knows he can make a mistake now and then.

Seems evident that it's working for some of us, but not for all. Just an idea, but Michal 'fixed' a few problems where Soldat wasn't compatible with other backround programmes. I don't usually run much else while playing Soldat, so have you tried playing without any backround programmes on?

http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=29908 for a list of changes.

Would also be wise if someone who's aquianted with the server-side of things could let us know if any default details in the dedicated server hosting was changed this version, or if any new options were added or tweaked perhaps.

Mm. What good are those changes when you can't kill anything with/without them. It might be a bug with the servers. All I know is, when 1.2.1 switched to 1.3, the version went up along with the lag in every server, and all the registering issues sky rocketed.

quote:Originally posted by Chakra`People need 'time' to get used to things. It may take a short amount of time to get used to a weapon a first time, but to not only re-learn it, but forget what you learned last time takes effort; reprogramming the very reflexes of your muscles.


That is the main problem I think, and I think i mentioned it back in 1.2->1.2.1 or around that time. This is only good for the newbs, but for the "old", who have been playing for several versions, it is just [CENSORED]. You can call it "challange", but hey, i don't have much time nowdays to play Soldat and stuff, so when I just feel like i play a quick match just for fun, i can't 'cos some player, who started playing a few days ago own me and shout at me "HAHA PWNED!", and i can't kill him, as the weapons don't act like they used to be. It may be fun sometimes, but it's also frustrating. And by the end, it is nonsense to become the master of ANY weapon in the current version, as in half a year you will be owned by <random newb>.

S'very lazy way of thinking KeFear. The 'best' players in their field are those that can adapt to subtle changes to their preferred weapon. Anyone who can't hasn't a chance of really being considered a decent player or an expert with his weapon.

Many barretards have survived and remained the best in their field for years fearfully, for instance, despite numerous introductions such as bink and increased auto damage.


Still lets keep this on topic.

If there really is serious bullet-connection net-code bugs going on in Soldat, then the 'whining' about it should begin asap.
It adds alot of confusion that some of us, such as myself, have absolutely no problems like this. But supposing it really does exist and you people aren't just getting confused with lag (I know you can't be that stupid), then find evidence. Try to isolate when and where and what kind of games it happens in. Is there servers for you where this 'doesn't' happen? can you provide demo's to show Michal? Any clues at all that can be discovered means Michal can fix it sooner.

Post a bug report. Have evidence on the spot. Get the approval of your mates. Be constructive.

If you cry wolf enough, nobody will listen when an actual bug comes up. That is because nobody wants to sift through the junk you anti-anti-whiners post. For everyone who has skipped the thing already: it's not worth your time. The entire topic is rhetoric and has no actual proof that you are anything except a bunch of complaining dolts.

Pope, you're intelligence boggles me. 50% of the soldat community definetly says theres nothing wrong, atleast for them. The other half are whining, that something is wrong, and they want it fixed. If half of the players of soldat say theres a problem, theres a problem.

You really enjoy speaking for other people. There is no 50%. Hell, there probably is no bug at all. I say that you are all rhetoric and no proof. Until you can stop complaining and get something done about your so-called bug, you are only further proving my point.

..well thats just it luv. 'Everyone' whines after a new release, about anything they care for. People've been saying DE's are too powerful now, or that the adjustments to the minigun were unneccesary. omg, lag. wtf, I can't move my mouse. etc... ..can you see why people complaining about shots not registering sounds just as silly to some?


Moral of the story? don't whine. If theres 'really' something wrong with Soldat, go about it the right way. Not saying you're lieing, but Michal needs proof or at least some kind of reasoning as to why it's happening to some, and not others.

I think there should be a massive event held in multiple servers around the world where every player should be invited to test the latest weapon modifications, and after a while when the general consensus says the weapons are pretty good, use that from then on. Not only that, but there could be multiple Official sets that vary slightly perhaps which could be chosen by the server, the WM mod should also be described in a tab next to ping too imo.

That way beta testers wouldn't have to waste time so much on the balance, and the people who can actually change the program can get started on fixing what's important: bugs. (and maybe including some new features - custom gosteks online? Yeah I thought so).



edit:
on the non-registering hits; I think they do exist, but its got something to with lag and a few other things.
It's not as bad as zyxstand is making it out to be, but the bug is certainly there. I don't think that should be on the priority list though, it's almost always been there, and there are so many new bugs in the new version. Like the server completely pausing every couple of minutes (some servers) for sometimes up to 5 or 6 seconds. That is... not good.

popejohnpaul, apparently you didnt read my post at all. your reply is exactly the kind of thing i am condoning. How ironic. My topic isnt about lag or specific issues. Its about the attitude that "veterans" give to others. Your kind of replies are the things that start flame wars and degenerate threads.
What kind of evidence do you want? Do you want demos of my nades not registering? What would that prove? It happens already. My complaint is that it happens more often. How can I prove it? Do you want me to get a list of everyone who says that there IS a problem? Because I could.
@geologist: if someone quits, the appropriate response is neither "Oh, so sorry we ruined your good times!" or "good ridance." A more respectful reply wouldnt be too hard. Also, I posted plenty of topics during the public beta. I'm sorry i didnt post anything in those 2 threads. Since when was it my responsibilty to troll the forums 24/7 and respond to every topic? If that's the norm for you, don't expect us to accept that as an excuse for the frequent disrepectful arrogant replies. I really have nothing against you. But you gotta admit that your replies can easily be taken as arrogant. I'm just pointing that out.

@chakra: with all due respect, not everyone has been here through so many versions. A lot of people here have played less than a year. Why should we expect them to not have complaints? I know you are doing what you can to try to get people to be rational, but there are so many vets who treat other people like crap because the new version isnt working out for them.

Remember guys, the point of this thread isnt any specific complaint on any issue (so I have no idea why it was moved). The point is respect. Can't everyone give it anymore? Or is it reserved for the old players? The annoying people's posts you read every during every new version are not the same people. If their post sounds like it was written by a 12-year-old, maybe it IS written by one. Be mature. All I'm trying to do is bring a positive change to this. I'm not blaming any specific person. For those of you who responded negatively to so many posts, why are you so arrogant? Soldat is a game. good job, you played it longer than the other guy. So what? That means you are allowed to disregard any resemblance of manners and respect?

Here, I will summarize everything in a sentence:
Can't you guys just try to be nicer?

True, we could be nicer...if the "I quit" topics weren't all over issues that have either already been addressed (like the barret/knife changes) or issues which people just whine about without coming up with proof or demos or anything to help MM change things (like hits being registered, lag issues, etc). Why should we be nice to every person who starts whining (and yes, it's whining when it's not constructive or useful) and says that MM or the beta testers ruined the game for them? Serious problems have been mentioned, we're always looking for confirmation of new bugs, and not all comments are taken as whining...just the ones where people get flustered and feel the need to let everyone know they quit.

Secondly, those two topics were the two topics created for the public to speak up about the next release. But somehow you feel you have to troll around for those two topics. I don't blame you, the majority of the forums felt the need to not post and thus (imo) voided any right to whine about the next release. Mind you I said whine, not propose constructive arguements as to why they don't like the new version. There's a difference between topics that just whine omg you ruined my barret/knife/Soldat omg you all suck), and a topic that presents an arguement in a logical manner. Topics that have done the latter have been considered. Topics that just whine get flamed and ignored. I'm sorry, but if you somehow missed those two topics then you missed your chance to speak up when it truely mattered. Maybe you should troll around a bit more next time and post in the more relevent topics.

Better yet, post your own arguements in the suggestions forum and try to actually make a case for your arguement. People do actually pay attention when a significant problem is brought to light with credibility to boot.

Edit: Arrogant? I know what I want to say and I say it. If that makes me arrogant so be it.

i said i posted plenty in the actual beta testing forum. I didnt post in those specific topics. I even posted the specific things I am "whining" about on that forum.
anyways, I guess you have a point in thier unconstructiveness. I think the problem is the unconstructive posts gets lumped together with the constructive ones with the same topic. So a lot of well meaning people get a lot of useless crap thrown thier way for no reason. Its also annoying.

I havent played soldat or visited the message board for over a week just because everything is getting so annoying.