Yes, I know it seems too early.
But its not, I shall explain.
Everywhere I go I hear ppl complaining about the m79, and I always agree, its [CENSORED]ing horrible how they pop up everywhere.
I feel so robbed of all time favourit gun.
A gun I had used for more then 2 years straight!

But I fear we are about to go through the same loop we did with the Barret.
1 weapon possesing a problem with the balance.
So what do we do? we UPGRADE everything else! (meet 1.2).
Then we realize it was wrong, and other then making the whole game ubber easy, the barret is still the most powerfull thing.
So what do we do ? we invent bink , which totaly [CENSORED]s up the barret (in a somehow over nerfed way).
And then we have 1.2.1 which filled Soldat with sprayage 'till this day and probably forever.

LETS NOT GO through this again with m79!!!!
Sure, it might be neat to invent new stuff and put it on the m79!! wuhu!
NOT!
Delay on Barret nerfed it just right! , now think can u do the same on the m79? can u truely say m79 and the barret were at the same power range?
I'm affraid that the anger accumilating on the m79 will result again with another over nerfed of a weapon within a nerfing rage after a long period of suffering the m79 rage going on.

Bink did wonders with m79, and the most important thing! it already exists in Soldat! yay! no need to impliment more bugs! no need to add another factor to an already crowded soldat.
You have bink! which was a great invention! use it!

But please! lets not go through another horrible cycle as we did with the barret.

If I'll still be here in the next version, I with no doubt PM MM about it, and ask him to think about it a bit before changing anything. because this version , this current version can easly be the turning point to better sodlat game, or a turning BACK to a farmiliar place that we dont like.

Over my dead barret riddled bra wearing body.

NERF TEH M79!!! I said it many times - it's the coolest weapon that's why it's overused. That's why it should be the weakest (NOT balanced).

i would make the m79 a slower reload speed... its very fast for an "almost-always-1hit-killer" weapon...
but honestly, Soldat is not nerfing only the weapons, but also nerfing ITSELF!
its not the same since i started this game...

M79 should be slower reload I guess. 2 more seconds please.

Once the M79 is nerfed, people will just pick another weapon to [CENSORED] about. I'm already hearing a lot of grumbling about the Steyr, which seems to me ridiculous. People will find anything to [CENSORED] about, and they just choose the M79 at the moment because it's quite common in public servers. The solution isn't to nerf the M79. It's not all that hard to combat.

Maybe, just maybe, we could all stop [CENSORED]ing about weapon balance, which is pretty damn good, and focus more on getting bugs fixed and improving gameplay.

</rant>

meh...
I say , yes nerf it.
Just be smart about it!
That's all I'm saying.
But all you can see is black and white....life is gray my friends.
You dont just completly nerf each problematic weapon!
Hey I just played a game with 6 m79's and 2 de's...
You think I enjoyed it?! its [CENSORED]ing annoying! blasts everywhere, my own team, enemie, who knows..
But I still REMIND YOU! the barret was over nerfed in 1.2.1! remember what happened then?
More bink on the m79, and you'll see alot less ppl using it.
there's nothing to [CENSORED] about with other weapons.. the balance is quite well.

Yeah, I agree that it would help equalize the balance by doing something with the M79. But I also fear that if the M79 is nerfed, then another weapon will become the new M79, so on and so forth.

There is not going to be a new version, WBAHAHHAHAHHHHA!

M79 sux, nerf it plz.

Currently m79 = the most overused weapons in public servers HOWEVER

Spray = the most overpowered tactic in clanwars. Please fix spray, and increase m79's reload to 195 rather than doing something that will kill its usefulness in clanwars.

How about team weapon limiting. Problem solved all round.

Thats perfectly fine, thats actually the best idea, because it would limit usage in pubs. and only around 10% of people use m79 on clanwars anyways.

Let's get the 1.2.1 Weapon Balance and change law to an AT4 so we can shoot missiles while standing up!!! :)

Let's not!

Lets start again, get the very first weapon balance and work from that

Btw, just adding on to my last post and to Enences suggestion, there should be a default but there should be a server option on that also. Default at 25% is probably good. after more than 25% of people on the server have the weapon, it automatically becomes unavailable at reapawn. :Q

meh... I reckon make it a 2 shot kill. It'd still be useful, just moreso a run n' gun weap, and let an auto sweep them up. And it gives the reciever a bit of a knock around too...

Hey, normal 'nades are only like a 5% chance of killing instantly...

Increase reload on the m79, add the weapon limiting.

it will also push people to be better at more than one weapon


EDIT: And something to think about. The real fallback of a osk weapon should be the fact that it only affects one person (and exceptionaly long reload times, and bink). The other weapons counter act that cause they can actually spray and target more than one individual.

quote:Originally posted by EnEsCeHow about team weapon limiting. Problem solved all round.


Nah i hated that on games like americas army. its awful when someone else has the weapons you want and just noobing it with them

and THATS why you need to learn to use different guns... point proven.

i use diffrent guns anyway- but for some maps- you need to use a spas or desert eagle, or for some you need to use an mp5 or a steyr, putting a cap on it is just not going to work.

An option do have team limiting would be cool, though.

i noticed an amazing thing about Ok's thread's,nearly all start around this time of the month,now this lead's me and many other's to believe that Ok does infact bleed at this time of the month,thus leading to the whining thread's,just an observation but keep it in mind :o


on a less bloody note,i think the weapon balance atm is pretty much perfect,m79 isn't used in clan wars so much,i dont think any one gun is overused anymore,which is how it should be really.

you say you were in a game with 6 m79's and 2 de's,people new to any game will go for the weapon they can use easiest,it's not that the m79 is overpowered,it's that it has an easier learning curve,you shouln't go by what you see in public server's as to what's overpowered and what's not,for instance when you have weapon's being used as well as they should in clan war's then you have a decent idea if something is being overused,and atm i dont see any one weapon like that.

the best idea i see is to have a serverside option to limit the number of any gun one team can have,it would make public server's more interesting and even clanwar's if it was used well,although it probably is a little early to be making changes like these anyway,i think bug fixes should be top priority atm,but yeah

!HINT! upgrade all weapons to make the m79 weak !HINT!

stop changing soldat so much! the m79 is fine. the back flip should help u out. did you ever think that the m79 noob is better with their wep than you are with yours? psst fyi i use deggles+knife (knife which is EXTREMELY [CENSORED] now)

i cant backflip...

I am Mancer and i approve of this.


Seriusly make a weapon per team percentage option.

Just had a few intensive matches, seems like the weaponbalance is finally alright in this version, no ?

( Yeah, i'm on normal connection again, OK, you can send me the Mike Brant albums! :) )

Seriously, take my suggestion into account - making the m79 a 2 shot kill weapon. It'd be kind of like Unreal's shock rifle or something that way, but still be able to kill and cause mayhem... I reckon it'd be good. It'd certainly stop all the cheap kills (of which there are far beyond too many caused by this weapon).

I reckon we'd be able to keep the balance the same as it is now by doing that too, as the M79 would become a bit of a niche/specialty weapon. You could still compete by hitting them (stuffing up their aim by blowing them into the air) and then whipping out a socom...

Best idea yet imho.


Weapon limits would be ok for mods... but I don't think it would work that well in normal Soldat.

If its a 2 shot kill, then it either have to cause 99% damages, or reload twice as fast.

Or do away with the m79 all together, make it and stick with the law.
i dont think its the best idea- but the m79 is pretty ok as it is- its take ALOT of skills to use properly, and when a noob takes one for a spin i can easily take him down.

ROFLMAO, Dont use the word 'skill' and 'm79' in the same sentence; it implies lies.

quote:Originally posted by EnEsCeHow about team weapon limiting. Problem solved all round.

quote:Originally posted by DrivenUnderM79 should be slower reload I guess. 2 more seconds please.

Yeah right.

quote:Originally posted by Snipedmyselfstop changing soldat so much! the m79 is fine.

i agree on this. we keep changing the balance from version to version, but facts are: there will always be ppl who won't approve of the current balance, so stop wasting your time on this.
Find the version were most ppl were happy about the balance(i suggest 1.2.1), and stick to it. Run a poll or something.

I smell a team weapon limit petition.

1.2.1 was the best, no doubt at all.

If you're constantly changing the weapon balance, you'll make everyone uncomfortable and create a substantial turnover rate for the game, constantly undermining the community.
Think about it - most commercial online games like Warcraft III or Counter Strike or whatever don't really change that much. There's the initial version and maybe an expansion pack. Some patches for the bugs and that's it. Maybe a sequel. This way, there's an element of stability that Soldat lacks.

The ONLY change an m79 needs is a longer reload. No startup or that crap. That wont do anything. It NEEDS and I mean NEEDS a longer reload.

The Percent idea is a rather retarded idea
1)Hard to implement
2)A pain to use during clan wars (Takes longer to choose weapon)
3)Mathmatical Problems for smaller games (If there are default percentages like 10 percent can use m79 this could cause problems if there are only 3 players on a team)
4)A person should be able to use whatever god damn weapon they want no matter who else is using it

btw m79 is crap in cw's especially low against barrets

no you fool Sean, its not hard to implement.. its the same deal as advanced mode except with minor modifications... And if this were to be implemented, im sure the %%% would be customizable, so it wont matter in CW's aslong as a /setweapon% command was there. And im sure theres a solution to the 'Mathamatical' problem... Such as instead of making it a percentage, make it a number. eg: Weapon_8_max=3 (per team) instead of =70%

M79 = teh [CENSORED].

for a couple reasons.

1. Overly used.
2. Too fast of a reload for such a big gun IN REAL LIFE
3. Shoot that [CENSORED] within 5 feet of you and your practically dead.
4. It's the SHORT-RANGE version of the Barrett. (instead of barrettards it's [CENSORED]ing m79NOOBS
5. Way to easy to calculate launch. It's a noob weapon.


Every gun is fine except the M79, it's not fair that by the time you're done with a full clip of Steyr, they can have reloaded about 2 times!

Barrett isn't hard to dodge and I don't understand why people complain about it. But M79 is a splash damage weapon, it's hard to dodge! For goodness sakes it has it's own number for it's type of bulletshell!

2 Solutions.

1.Bink the [CENSORED] out of the M79 since in real life you'd obviously have some recoil
2. Increase reload by about 2 seconds and we're cool.

As for Barrett, it's realistically possible, so don't [CENSORED].. it's like having a Shotgun from 100 metres away and getting pounded by a Barrett and [CENSORED]ing cause he is being "a Barrettard", so what if his skill/proffession lies within a sniper?

Let's re-release 1.0.5! Yay restartage!

I totally agree with the limiting to gun selection, that's how it is in some of the servers on Call of Duty.

it's like a gun rack..

the army isn't going to supply equal amounts of Grenade launchers as they do USSOCOM, and there's obvious reasons.

but binking or increasing reload on M79 is a much quicker solution.

and the Steyr is balanced! [CENSORED] you if you can't stop a weak gun like that, it's for people who can't make accurate shots..
that's why its damage is low. and it's ammo is high.

and the barret is for ace-1-shooters, good snipers.

AK47 is for moderate players, like mid-fielders in soccer.

Deagles are for self-confident rushers.

Minigun is for defense.

MP5 is for enclosed-area-defense.

Ruger is for moderate snipers, usually slow advancing bush hiders.

Spas-12 is a rushing, chase-the-EFC gun.

FNMinimi as most can agree, is a all-purpose weapon...

M79 is finally the "DO WHATEVER THE [CENSORED] YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU SHOOT THAT DAMN BULLET NEAR THE MOTHER [CENSORED]ER, HE'S DEAD!!".

Agressor you have no idea whatsoever, you should shut the [CENSORED] up before you humiliate yourself even more, ruger is for slow advancing bush hiders? Spas a chase the EFC gun? Minigun for defence?
The only thing about your post that I actually like, is that you agree with the limited gun selection, otherwise I would call you a lot of names, which at that point you would deserve.

He was also implying soldat is a realistic game, when the [CENSORED] are people going to get over this "oh that's not realistic" bull[CENSORED], go play a realistic game you [CENSORED]en morons, it's a 2d arcade sidescroller if it was realistic everything would be one shot kill or near to it, are people who say that seriously retarded enough to believe flying around with jetpacks on your shoes is realsitc, on top of that flying with an anti tank gun and having pin point accuracy. stfu to all the people who say this.
/end rant

your honest opinion sucks person

I doubt the future lies in changing how weapons work rather than adding new features to the game such as a secondary stat, different bullet types etc... to reach the ultimate goal of having the RPG style of fairness example; Warrior - Mage - Archer where the warrior beats the archer which beats the mage which beats the warrior

A paper-scissors-rock-esque balance would suck pretty badly in soldat.

Veronica, we are actually pretty close to that stage. And soldat is more complicates than just something like that, maps affect which weapon wins also.

Right now, Semi beats Auto
Auto beats 1-hit
1-hit beats semi

But ofcourse, certain maps and routes give some weapons an advantage.

Judging from the two replies above, I take it you two dont really know (or prefer guessing) what we're playing :) so what are we playing? :( Do we have a paper-scissor-rock balance? or maybe we dont? why would it suck badly in soldat if its allready in?

We have a great balance.
M79 is NOT overpowered, if u stay away from it, its possible to deal with.
Thing is, with the new weapons balance (which is great) you can't kill the m79er fast enough and he manages to come close enough to you.

So, either brink back the m79 we knew back in 1.1.5 when it had a MUCH shorter range.
I used only m79 back then, I have a habbit of disliking weapons that are too easy.
And the m79 is too easy, either add bink to it, or just shorten its range 1.1.5 had great m79ers (hugs Outcast and Bugs) I think it was just fine back then and will suite the new weapons balance just fine as well.

But that's beyond the point, there is no doubt m79 will be nerfed in the next version, just notice the complaints all around and the precentage in usage in publics, its too damn annoying.
And these forums are based on public players, so it will with no doubt be nerfed (and should be.)
However, What I'm saying is not "NERF IT" I'm warning to be carefull while doing it.

Just a little at a time, no big mess like we had before, that's all I'm saying...
Just because 10000000 complain about it, doesnt mean its THAT big of a problem.

And I do like the idea of allowing a certin precentage for each weapons, it will add veriety into the game, and with no doubt improve the team work element, because the best combination of a 3 players team is a 1 shot weapon, a semi auto and an auto :) and that's the way it should be.

Please dont turn this into another RPG :S.
That'll be the day that I leave Soldat ([sarcasm]Now you don't want that at all huh[/sarcasm]).
Soldat is unique , some people prefer Soldat over CounterStrike (I do) because it's unique.

The current balance is great and I've polled the points about Soldat 1.3.1 and it turned out a 78% , and that was polled right after the release.
Really , Soldat is good as it is now , though I'm not saying that it cannot be improved , far from that.
To quote myself: people will only say something if they want to complain , if not they'll just shut up and play.

Also, just make sure that the next update upgrades some weapons instead of weakening some.

Grtz , DePhille

Dude, I have been saying this whole time in other topics that Soldat isn't realistic!!
I never said it was! It has realistic elements, and what are you talking about Outcast? What I said about the guns is true. Those guns are really good for what I stated, you have to think how the guns work, a Ruger is best used when you take more aim. And of course shotgun is good for chasing a EFC too. It has a lot of spray and you have a good chance of getting them by anticipating their next move with the slow pellets that a shotgun has.

Don't get mad at me because you don't think about why I said those things. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you can't consider the possibilities of my reasoning. True part of the reason why I hate the m79 is cause I can get easily owned by it.. but also because JUST about anyone can be fairly good with it.

im sO totally with Agressor on the weapon balance comments- i play realistic at leos. and the m79 is unused. its great.

I personally don't like the weapon limiting option. All this would do is make the M79 only available to the first people in the server and screw over anyone else who happens to come along and want to use it (in pubs). People new to the game will always pick up the 1-hit kill weapons because any lucky shot of theirs will bring a kill, as will any shot at point blank range.

All I think the M79 needs is a 4 second reload (same as the barret's) because right now, M79ers can usually reload JUST faster than it takes to kill them (at close range).

you dont like everyone having m79s?

Two words.

ADVANCE MODE.

Not everyone likes advance mode.

I donno, Agressor, spas kinda sucks for chasing the EFC seeing as it gives them a boost out of your base and towards saftey.

quote:Originally posted by Agressor1M79 = teh [CENSORED].

for a couple reasons.

Just want to point out your "couple reasons" is five silly points.

quote:
2. Too fast of a reload for such a big gun IN REAL LIFE


Because as we all know, Soldat is real-life. While we're at it, let's recude jumping height to a millimeter, cause real people do not jump three stories plus high, let alone while fully combat suited.

quote:
3. Shoot that [CENSORED] within 5 feet of you and your practically dead.
4. It's the SHORT-RANGE version of the Barrett. (instead of barrettards it's [CENSORED]ing m79NOOBS

These are redundant. The thing about the M79 is that it's really the only weapon that stands a good chance of killing its user just through normal use.

quote:5. Way to easy to calculate launch. It's a noob weapon.

Wah! There are no "noob" weapons. Just people who lack the skills to overcome them and choose to whine/ban instead of bettering themselves.

Let's see... M79 has:

1) Very slow reload. Miss your shot, and you need to dance and hopefully avoid getting shreaded, or switch to your secondary while the M79 still needs to reload.
2) No guarantee of kill. If you don't miss your one and only shot, then you still may need to do the above if it doesn't kill on contact.
3) Short range. Any distance weapon -- and Soldat is full of them -- will completely destroy the average M79 user. I really can't see the M79 being worth anything in deathmatch as Ruger, Desert Eagles, autos, etc. will not only be able to land a shot in before the M79er is even in range, but the shots do bink the M79's aim, making it more difficult to land in one prayer.
4) Chance of killing yourself. That M79 shell will often kill the person who fired it, either do to environment getting in the way, bink, or friendlies. The M79 is the only weapon that you cannot fire in a friendly group/base without risk of killing yourself in the process. Friendly fire also binks the hell out of it.
5) Bink hurts. Try landing that one shot amid a wave of auto spray. As with all "accuracy-based" weapons, bink can really mess you up. More so when your weapon of choice leaves no room for error.

The M79 is fine as is; it's a fun, chaotic weapon that does require skill to use well. I have noticed a lot of people using it in CTF, but that doesn't change the fact that the M79 sucks as a weapon. It can hold its own in one-on-one situations fairly well if the player nails the shot in time before the enemy can react, but that's about it. The real reason to use the weapon -- and why I love it -- is that it really opens up the map for CTF play. Rocket boosting for height and speed are a great advantage, however it comes at the price of leaving yourself unarmed by wasting the shot for the boost.

I think most people know the difference between someone who just camps with a barret and the person who rushes in and disarms the enemy with it. Either one will likely get called "barretard" or "noob" -- that's just the way Soldat and on-line gaming in general is. Personally, with the release of the weapons mod, you'd think people would stop whining, take things into their own hands, and either ban the offending weapon or nerf it to kingdom come. The developer has given people a way to tailor the game to anyone's tastes as for as weapons go, and that leaves no reason to whine about it anymore as far as I'm concerned.

That backflip on the other hand... :p

I agree with several posters above; once it's nerfed someone's gonna [CENSORED] about a new weapon and eventually we're gonna nerf em all and eventually we'll have to shoot someone 100 times to kill em. Deal with it, the game's fine.

Use different guns; seen that a lot as well. I do that and I have no complains about the game.

[CENSORED] the god damn M79, vets say its [CENSORED] so therefore it is [CENSORED]. go back to runescape noobs.

I will kill all of you. Then balance will be fine.

quote:Originally posted by personNot everyone likes advance mode.


me neither but i played it ALOT when i was a noob and you learn to use any weapon as if you die you have to scavenge weapons from the dead, and theres no choice there.

Freaking Pricks!! STFU

I'm getting sick of all of ya whining and [CENSORED]ing.
Stop turning this into another place to legaly whine about your issues!
This is a thread to celebrate a new age and a request to maintain it by changing thing wisely from now on, and by wisely I mean 1 step at a time.

This is NOT a question of whether to nerf the m79 or NOT!!!
Like it or not, the m79 WILL get nerfed, why? because its overused!
history had shown that every weapons that is overused posses a problem and will eventualy be nerfed.
If its just public or not, that does not matter atm.
I have no doubt that spray still rages the clan war world... as I said before 1.2.1 brought it into the soldat world and it will stay forever, who knows what other things can we bring into soldat by [CENSORED]ing up like we did with the barret (adding bink/self bink).

Fact is its going to get nerfed!
and this is exactly what I'm talking about! taking out your rage on the weapon wayyy to much!

No matter what will happen to the m79 or any other weapon for that matter, it should be made wisely! because its obvious the balance atm is quite well, and you can [CENSORED] it up quite easly with all these stupid "angry" solutions.

M79 is not a BARRET there for should not act the same as a barret!
I haven't heard even 1 of ya talking about just adding some bink to it.
all I can see here are ppl who either really like the m79 and want to keep it the way it is, or ppl who really hate it and want to nerf it!

Your opinions are all biased! how about caring about the game rather then trying to maintain your weapon being the ultimate one?
Because evntualy everyone will use your oh so favourit weapon, and you won't own so much anyhow...

Get some prespective, this is an 8 weapons game, no weapon should be good for all situations, and m79 is not good for all situation, there is a very delicate balance and m79 can be easly overnerfed or overpowered.

So ungladly , I come to the sole conclusion, and I'm truely am sorry to have to say it to ya.. but seriously
sit down, cut the crap and let the veterans decide what's good for ya.. they have been playing this when barret had no bink, when m79 had half its range and when AK did not posses even 1% of the community.
So try to learn rather then teach. it takes time to completly understand the delicate balance in Soldat. or any other game with 8 weapons.

What makes you the player who started playing at 1.2 that you know better?
You weren't even here when m79 was really hard to use yet alot of ppl ownd with it.
What makes you the 1.2.1 newbie think that u know better? u weren't even here before bink was invented!
Most of u guys dont know what soldat is capable and what the weapons are capable off with just practice and wisdom.
So yes, its going to be a little harder, but why are you here? to own and kill easly? or to find a nice challange to overcome.
Games are meant to posses a challange, not to uphold you fractured ego...

Chill out freaks.

That's actually one of my taunts.

quote:Originally posted by OkFreaking Pricks!! STFU

I'm getting sick of all of ya whining and [CENSORED]ing.
Stop turning this into another place to legaly whine about your issues![/qoute]
Oh the hipocracy.
[quote]Originally posted by Ok
This is NOT a question of whether to nerf the m79 or NOT!!!
Like it or not, the m79 WILL get nerfed, why? because its overused!
history had shown that every weapons that is overused posses a problem and will eventualy be nerfed.
Or maybe its just good, think about that?
Reload time - Ever seen a real m79?
Ever seen one reloaded? It's pretty easy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_grenade_launcher
See, all you have to do is open it up, and put a grenade-type-thing in, and thats it.
Pretty easy eh?

quote:Originally posted by EnEsCeno you fool Sean, its not hard to implement.. its the same deal as advanced mode except with minor modifications... And if this were to be implemented, im sure the %%% would be customizable, so it wont matter in CW's aslong as a /setweapon% command was there. And im sure theres a solution to the 'Mathamatical' problem... Such as instead of making it a percentage, make it a number. eg: Weapon_8_max=3 (per team) instead of =70%




yeah it seems like a fine idea for public servers but i don't know if its the way to go for cw's.

Maybe different weapons could give a slight modification to the amount of health you have, I'm just throwing that out there to get the creative juices a flowing.

quote:Originally posted by The GeologistI will kill all of you. Then balance will be fine.
geologist never fails to provide the best answer.

if everyone just thinks for a second, you'll all realize that soldat is going down the toilet (that or it will become the best game ever created, but that's unlikely), so enough with all the whining crap. enjoy michal's creation while you still can.

quote:Originally posted by paramudquote:Originally posted by OkFreaking Pricks!! STFU

I'm getting sick of all of ya whining and [CENSORED]ing.
Stop turning this into another place to legaly whine about your issues![/qoute]
Oh the hipocracy.
[quote]Originally posted by Ok
This is NOT a question of whether to nerf the m79 or NOT!!!
Like it or not, the m79 WILL get nerfed, why? because its overused!
history had shown that every weapons that is overused posses a problem and will eventualy be nerfed.
Or maybe its just good, think about that?
Reload time - Ever seen a real m79?
Ever seen one reloaded? It's pretty easy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_grenade_launcher
See, all you have to do is open it up, and put a grenade-type-thing in, and thats it.
Pretty easy eh?


That webpage actually has a link to Soldat in it! :O

quote:Originally posted by paramudquote:Originally posted by OkFreaking Pricks!! STFU

I'm getting sick of all of ya whining and [CENSORED]ing.
Stop turning this into another place to legaly whine about your issues![/qoute]
Oh the hipocracy.
[quote]Originally posted by Ok
This is NOT a question of whether to nerf the m79 or NOT!!!
Like it or not, the m79 WILL get nerfed, why? because its overused!
history had shown that every weapons that is overused posses a problem and will eventualy be nerfed.
Or maybe its just good, think about that?
Reload time - Ever seen a real m79?
Ever seen one reloaded? It's pretty easy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_grenade_launcher
See, all you have to do is open it up, and put a grenade-type-thing in, and thats it.
Pretty easy eh?


Have you ever seen a barret in real life? its [CENSORED]ing huge, shooting it while standing is NOT an option, not along running with that thing...
Don't compare it to real life. it won't work.
As for Soldat going down the toilet, its a possibility no doubt about it. still gotta try...
And trust me, you have plenty for time to whine AND play , the both dont take over each other :).

I think its time for someone to lock this topic, ppl are using it for 1.3.1 whining and that's just a pain in the ass....

It's perfectly fine seriously.

"OH it's so overused in publics wha wha wha.."
Publics are full of newbs and [CENSORED]s. Get a Clan and scrim.

As an m79er, i rarely use m79 in scrim because it's really hard not to get owned. Some maps are easier to m79 but most of them are too wide open so you just get sprayed to death.

The reload time is really fine too. 2 more second would just be ridiculous. You WOULD BE dead if you miss your shot with 2 more second. You could as well put a reload as long as the LAW when you're at it. you want the m79 to be a one-shot-drop weapon? I don't

"The m79 is SOO easy to use huhuhu such a noob weapon hihihihihi"

yeah, go to some random public and look at all those m79 users. They miss like 80% of their shots and it seems they don't know secondary weapon exist in soldat. To become a really good m79er your accuracy has to be really high w/e the situation and being able to kill the enemy before he react.
Try to find someone who has such skills in scrims in all maps, i say good luck.

Mainly, i think Soldat need MAJOR bug fixes(hit registering) and a couples more secondary weapons wouldn't hurt too.

judge man got it exactly right :o

quote:Originally posted by Judge_Manyou want the m79 to be a one-shot-drop weapon? I don't


So you would agree that the M79 would be better as a 2-shot kill weapon?

ABSOLUTLY NOT!!! lol

Dude it's a grenade launcher, would you survive if you receive a grenade in the chest? No.
Making it a 2-shot kill would be so stupid! IT would become like the ruger but 20 times worst because it would have MUCH longer reload and MUCH shorter range. It just won't work that way.

replace it with a rubber ball and then we'll see whos laughing

So make it have a longer range and a bigger clip llloollo

2-shot M79 is ridiculous. It's whole role in the game is as a one-shot weapon.

Well it'd be a change of pace, hey. Let's not bring realism into this. I don't think I should have to point out the fact that virtually every aspect of the game is unrealistic. As I've said before... it'd be a balance issue, not an aesthetic one.

If it dealt a lot of damage... say 90-98%, the target would be in trouble. And if the M79 is made that it forces people's aim to stuff up and throw the player a little (and not blast them too much away), it buys the M79'er some time to whip out a socom...
And I'd say you'd probably have a slightly faster reload time with it. So if there is some kind of temporary (0.5sec) "paralysis", of targets with the blast range, I think it'd still retain its usefulness.


Sure its current role is a 1 shot kill weapon. Look at virtually every other one shot kill weapon in the game - the barret, the LAW, the knife, even the chainsaw... they've all (except the saw due to it no longer being 1 hit kill) gone through some hefty "nerfing". All include a delay of some sort... and we all know that would just suck with the m79.
The fact is, I think most people just hate dieing in one shot. Change the M79's role to a heavy support weapon.

how about just increase the bink some more and set the reload to 210?

then make all the other weapons better just a tad. like a tiny bit.

quote:Originally posted by personWell it'd be a change of pace, hey. Let's notIf it dealt a lot of damage... say 90-98%, the target would be in trouble. And if the M79 is made that it forces people's aim to stuff up and throw the player a little (and not blast them too much away), it buys the M79'er some time to whip out a socom...
And I'd say you'd probably have a slightly faster reload time with it. So if there is some kind of temporary (0.5sec) "paralysis", of targets with the blast range, I think it'd still retain its usefulness.


Mkay, but that forces the player into using the SOCOM as a secondary. That's kinda stupid IMO. Judge Man is right, the thing is fine, just leave it alone.

EDIT: and also, not everybody hates dying in one shot. Players who are experienced and have the capacity to appreciate a nice shot with the M79, i.e. one they almost certainly couldn't make, don't mind getting killed with it in such a case. Same with the Barret. If someone nails me from long range with the M79, I don't complain, I say "ns" and move on.

And if you're getting killed consistently by noobs who hit you point-blank, it's not their fault for being noobs, it's your fault for being unaware of your surroundings or slow to react. Or just unlucky.

The reload is the main problem, and possibly the only problem.

The question of m79 being overpowered is not the point.
Its a pain in the ass in publics, but that's just because you have no team..
A bunch of autos can easly take a bunch of m79s.

Nevertheless, its going to be changed :)
Why? because this place is filled with public players, the odds are very much to the favour of the public players here.
I still think its too easy, but that's just me missing the days that m79 was REALLY hard and "NS" had meaning to it.

Like it or not, its going to be changed, and I fear ppl here will take their anger on the m79 by doing stupid things such as adding reload time to it.. or a delay god forbid!!!

But I'm talking to the wall , 'cause you'll keep complaining about the m79 as if this is a whining thread, and other morons will keep countering it as if this actualy means something for the next version..

So go on.. have fun... sheesh...

yessssssssss!!! *throws hands in the air*

quote:Originally posted by EnEsCeyessssssssss!!! *throws hands in the air*


YOu mean something like this...



quote:Originally posted by Chakra`






[IMAGE]

I'm seeing a lot of the thinking that led to the balancing "fiascos" of previous versions that people always whine about, so I'm going to take the liberty of reminding everyone of what I said before about creating a successful weapon balance.

Basically, what I said in that thread is that before a successful weapon balance can be achieved, we have to first define the roles that we want each weapon to fill in relation to the big picture. Then we can start to identify how to make those weapons fit their roles.

Although I honestly can't say it's so, I like to think that my addressing that issue during 1.3.1's balancing helped to create what, as far as I can tell, is the most balanced weapons scheme to date--but I'll address that further a bit later on in this post.

Right now, I'm seeing lots of people giving a plethora of solutions, but not a single person has actually tried to identify the specific problem or describe the goal (the ideal role) for the M79. It's like everyone is trying to balance the weapons scheme by simulating the natural process of evolution; taking each gun's stats (genetic code) and altering them bit by bit (mutating them). Biologically, the process took almost four billion years to make a microbe into a man--and it'll probably take just as long for us to balance Soldat in that manner.

So, what is the problem with the M79? I myself am honestly not in a position to say, as I haven't had as much time with 1.3.l as most at this point; consider Civilization IV and 5-day cruise over Christmas my excuses for that. What I have experienced of this latest version, however, is what I consider to be the best balance yet, the main reasons being that the barret's and knife's intended roles (sniping and escaping tight spots, respectively) were emphasized. At any rate, I'll form an actual opinion once I've played around with 1.3.1 more; this whole post is more about reminding everyone that we gotta go about this whole balancing thing in an orderly manner, and that we have to know just what aiming for if we're gonna hit the target.

I do know what I think the M79 should be used for, though--short to medium range on uneven terrain and clearing out more tightly-packed groups of soldats.


Lastly, as for the idea about restricting the number of players that can use a weapon at any time on a server... It'd definitely be a nice option for those who aren't satisfied with whatever the final weapons scheme will turn out to be (and there always will be), but to resort to it as a method for balancing the weapons across the board is just plain scary in my eyes. The worst thing you could possibly do to a game like Soldat is to outright restrict the player; to do so would be to partially erase the significance of the player's individual style of play, ultimately encouraging a gameplay experience that is too formulaic and predictable. In other words, you'd end up with a lesser version of the Instakiller Loop (spawning, running, firing a shot or two, dying from one shot, respawning, and repeating).

Thanks for reading.

quote:Originally posted by YoMammasMamma
this whole post is more about reminding everyone that we gotta go about this whole balancing thing in an orderly manner, and that we have to know just what aiming for if we're gonna hit the target.


ty.

About everything else you've said, being true or not, you're being way too complicated for the average soldat player to understand.
This is the sort of things that should adress a part of the community that is more inteligent and is capable of understanding the meaning of balance and what tools we have to accomplish it.

In short, you're preaching to the wrong audience here :)

Is their some kind of upper echelon where such discussion can actually take place? Unfortunately, none that I've heard of, unless you are a beta tester. Which is rather unfortunate.

I think people don't understand how weapon balance works.
They keep on suggesting new weapons etc. while on the other side they are whining about how hard weapon X sucks.
They also forget that it is mostly their opinion that influences the weapon balance , if the whole community starts to whine about M79 the beta testers will have to change that weapon (Maybe erf it).
In that case we would end up with a game where every bullet only takes away 1 health point.

The balance should be rock-paper-scissors , which means:
-Barret>M79 (accuracy and range)
-Steyr>Barret (Bink)
-Desert Eagles>Steyr (Power and accuracy)
-...

I agree that this post should go about what YoMammasMamma said , but since they closed the whine forum we also need to have some discussion about the weapon balance and the weapons themselves (in this post that would be IN GENERAL , so no weapon X whining or tips about weapon X).
The weapon balance discussion was a great way to talk like a beta-tester , but it's closed 'untill needed again' , which I think is getting more needed now.

Grtz , DePhille

One of the things im bugged about is that you have to reload the weapons you find on the ground, i think it should be like before that it still has ammo left if the previous user didnt empty the clip before he/she/it died....

Nerf the M79? Whatever happened to "Use your brain and jet backwards for a few seconds while you unload on the [CENSORED]?"

(Most players can't comprehend jetting backwards because it goes against mindlessly attacking and recklessfly speeding through the game to gain frags/caps. One can imagine how easy it is for such frantic players to just lose their nerves and spam complaints faster than an HK-MP5 spams bullets)

Well, that's just what I would do. It sort of worked for me for about three years. It's even easier because the autos are much stronger now. I don't see how it's overpowered.

Don't take it personaly mister person, there just players (prehapes you are one of them, I dunno) that are just too ignorant about Soldat inorder to completly understand the balance and be able to tweak it properly.
IT doesnt mean they're idiots... the only part that is an actual problem is that they actualy believe they do know enough.
The only thing wrose then not knowing is thinking u know when u dont... u can do alot of damage with that mentality.. and not just in soldat, in life issues too.

And what TFS said, is exactly what I was talking about, this kind of stuff are unknown for alot of those who cry "nerf" the M79, mostly because they still think Public Soldat is the ultimate level of game play.

ALOT of this forum's players think clan wars are just another way to play Soldat.
They're not! they're a few levels ABOVE anything else when it comes to skills in Soldat.
They include the best players and the most complicated situations.
That only means the best players will be found in the clan war world, dosent mean anything who plays cw's is better then those who don't.

Anyhow, the whining forum is close because enough is enough , the weapons balance forum is closed because u can arse the beta testers to read everything all the time.. its enough that they did while beta testing (hopefully).
I opened this thread because I was affraid the snow ball is starting again, and gave it a try to stop it before it all begins.
If it helped or not? I don't know, prehapes, I've seen some counter m79 whines here, and some smart suggestions, nevertheless I also saw some idiots with period remarks so I don't know if it helped or not.

Stop complaining about the m79 though, it won't help atm.

I think Ok hit the issue right on. Its obvious that m79 will have some nerf going next version, due to all this whine from public players, however its been history that overused or overpowered versions in 1 version are the weakest and [CENSORED]tiest in the next (mp5 barret 1.2 --> 1.2.1)(Law 1.2.1 --> 1.3) (Knife 1.3--> 1.3.1). That is just stupid, because it will just cause another weapon or set of weapons to becomeo overpowered and whined about. The new version has always made a HUGE nerf to teh overused or overpowered weapon, and thats not the way to go. I think we should be smart and make enough of a nerf so its balanced with teh other weapons, rather than weaker than the other weapons.

I basically agree with all of Ok's points about clanwars.

Also, about the beta weapon balance forum, I really didnt see a point in it. Basically most of the suggestions people made were disregarded, even if the majority of players agreed with 1 suggestion.

Something that unfortunately doesnt seem to get looked at during weapon balance is the affect nerfing one weapon will have on the usage of others. Just look at secondaries over the past 2 versions... You had LAW and KNIFE overused in 1.2.1, then destroyed LAW. You had Knife just used by practically everyone, and socom increased also in usefulness in 1.3, then Destroy knife also, now you have socom being used 50% of the time, with knife and LAw both at around 23% (according to my logs)... Its a similiar situation with primaries. People seem to think that just killing all usefulness of a overpowered or overused weapon is the best solution to balance soldat... It is not.

Yar, cw's and publics are like two completely different worlds of soldat, and it never made sense to mix them up and make a weapon balance that would cover them both.

I really hope there will be a weapon limit per team in the next version, that would solve a lot of the problems, 'cause then it wouldn't be too big of a problem if a gun is overpowered, since there could only be one of them per team.

I just have one thing to argue now..
You all say the other guns have more range than the M79... but that's not entirely true. I get hit from M79's when I have a auto and i'm looking as far as I can with my mouse... all you have to do is aim the M79 slightly higher and it'll still go far enough to hit someone.

I agree it requires some practice to get good with the gun.. but one shot from the M79 kills straight away. Now, no other primary weapons, besides the Barret, kill in one hit.. and a M79 can easily take out a AK-74 and get in another reload before the AK-74 can even finish their first clip.


I don't have many specific reasons to say why the M79 is unfair.
I just have a gut feeling that SOMETHING makes it slightly wrong.
now, i'm not just saying all this cause I die 24/7 to that son of a [CENSORED]. lol

I wouldn't want 2 seperate sets of weapon mods for public games and clan wars... I don't want to learn that. I just want to use the weapons I like to use, and not have them vary in effectiveness.

And I could only hope that the servers I go to disable weapon limiting. I don't want to be at the mercy of someone else's ideas of what would be a better soldat.

You're always in the mercy of someone else's ideas, unless you're the president of the US (and he probably answers to his wife) ;)

You can consider it a good thing, because that means that everday there are ppl who think for you in alot of stuff u know jack [CENSORED] about.

Now back to Soldat, understanding that you do NOT know everything is the key to learn and develope.
I've been playing Soldat for 3 years, I've been playing clan wars for 2 years of those 3 , quite exssesivly, yet I still see new ideas and new thing I didn't know about (even when it comes to a clan war itself).
There is always something to learn and its best that you question your own thoughts and try to be open minded about counter arguements.

I myself had to remind myself that I did not play any clan wars latley so my stand about m79 is questionable, so I went and ask ppl who do play it, and found out m79 is NOT a problem in 1.3.1 clan war world, so much that its barely used, it seems that sprayage still rules that world.

So imagine what we would do by nerfing the m79 even more!

M79 is not the problem, its the amount of players who use it who are.

I think that ADDing an OPTION to limit the precentage of each weapon, and being able to tweak it is quite reasonable and is a great idea.
Just like the weapons editor, it will make all of us beta testers and will eventualy reach a better precentage setting.

m79 vs auto is not the problem in most cases, a total of 5 m79's and an auto IS! its just a pain in the ass, and its time that we motivate newbies to venture to other sections of soldat and vary the scene a bit.

Having said that, prehapes some movies uploaded into here is a good idea to show these forum's users that m79 is not a problem?
anyone?

m79 IS a problem though,. Ok. It always has first strike capability so the whole thing about people saying "durr just fly backwards? duh ull dodge him" is rendered usless. Im not saying ditch the first strike capability Im saying make the reload a bit longer so when you recover from actually dodging someone with an m79, you have a fair amount of time to kill him because the m79 reloads rather quickly for the power it has. m79: more reload, Law: less startup knife: a bit more power and everybodehs happy.

well some weapons will allways have an advantage in certain gametype/players no./map combinations, there is no way around it
so i for one never had problems with weapon configurations, it just took some time getting used to

i dont think longer reload wouldn't do much for the m79 issue, maybe on small deathmatch maps or something

but i'd like to see slightly longer reload and a slightly shorter range, i think that might work
but still, many m79 hits don't quite register when i use it so that nerfs it enough for me

i wouldnt like to see law faster
and the knife is great now, maybe just a few % more damage, many nice hits now end up with the victim having a few health % left and running away or getting killed by somebody else

Most of the nice knife throws I've seen in 1.3.1 ended up killing me. So I reckon the knife is pretty much as perfect as it is going to get.

But yeah I dunno. I can see the good points to this, I can certainly acknowledge that I do not know everything about the game, it's just that I'm not sure how this is going to work out. It has the capability to change everything about the way the game is played - could turn out to be for the worse in some cases. And I'm not that sure if the benefits are worth it.

And if you think the m79 is never used in wars, just check out the alternative route. Usually dominated by it. Even a good player who never uses the m79 can give it a try and generally own the alternative route with it, should the other guy use anything else. Ruger will only work if the m79er either misses or is too far away.

quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_m79 IS a problem though,. Ok. It always has first strike capability so the whole thing about people saying "durr just fly backwards? duh ull dodge him" is rendered usless. Im not saying ditch the first strike capability Im saying make the reload a bit longer so when you recover from actually dodging someone with an m79, you have a fair amount of time to kill him because the m79 reloads rather quickly for the power it has. m79: more reload, Law: less startup knife: a bit more power and everybodehs happy.


Of course you can dodge and avoid an M79 player. Try moving slowly, so that the velocity with which you meet him is minimized, when he appears, jet/jump/backflip away and start shooting. Why is that so hard? I do this all the time. It works.

You'll advance slower than usual, bout you will *advance*. It's a sacrifice you make to get over certain enemies. Not one tactic can work against everything.

I think its safe to say that close to if not ALL the real hardcore players play in clans and pubs are for just people who practice or goof off. If it were my choice id want the weapons balanced based on clan matches. Regarding the m79 clan war or not it just reloads too fast IF you dodge it and start to make your way in for the kill chances are hes gonna be reloaded and ready to smack you upside the head before you can kill him. Theres a lot of factors that play into it but for ME I use distance to avoid it, if im just a little too far when moving in after a shots let off most the time they are reloaded and im dead.

Against m79:

quote:Originally posted by that fuking sniper

Of course you can dodge and avoid an M79 player. Try moving slowly, so that the velocity with which you meet him is minimized, when he appears, jet/jump/backflip away and start shooting. Why is that so hard? I do this all the time. It works.

You'll advance slower than usual, bout you will *advance*. It's a sacrifice you make to get over certain enemies. Not one tactic can work against everything.




Pro M79:
quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_m79 IS a problem though,. Ok. It always has first strike capability so the whole thing about people saying "durr just fly backwards? duh ull dodge him" is rendered usless. Im not saying ditch the first strike capability Im saying make the reload a bit longer so when you recover from actually dodging someone with an m79, you have a fair amount of time to kill him because the m79 reloads rather quickly for the power it has. m79: more reload, Law: less startup knife: a bit more power and everybodehs happy.



There you go, this is just what I am talking about.
These are too extremes , eventualy you won't see alot of ppl supporting the m79, more will whine about it.
Its just the way it goes, most players don't give a [CENSORED] untill it effects them and they feel it.
So that's why I think m79 will be nerfed.

Now here's a surprise, I agree with both comments above!
But! to an extend!
You see, its true, you CAN actualy dodge and keep your distance from m79ers, but its NOT THAT EASY. first you need to realize they have m79, that means predicting what your enemie will use, which is a quite advanced thinking to ask from all of the community.

Nevertheless, dodging and m79 is possible but quite hard... BUT if you already did it, and he gets to reload before you killed him.
Then my friend, you need practice.
Because that means yuo wasted a full clip without killing him.
so it comes down to who's better? him with m79? or you with your weapon.
If you can't kill him with 3-4 out of the 7 de shots you have, then you need to practice, or just aim more carefully next time and nto just spray him fast, because unlike autos he is not shooting you while you shoot him, you have no bink, no pressure, just aim and kill.


So we have 2 different extremes, saying the m79 is NOT a problem is not true, saying its WAAY too overpowered is not true either.
Its being used because its the alternative for barret, instant kill with no delay. but as newbies realize soon enough, its not that easy anymore, it has a curve, and a range limit.
Often I kill the same m79er over and over, sometimes it ends with him cursing me then leaving the server, sometimes it STARTS by him trying to use the weapon I am, then he gets owned again, tries other stuff, if that doesnt work he soon realizes he needs to practice , so he choose something he likes and tries it over and over.

But when facing a team of 4 m79ers while your teams hold 3 of them, its quite annoying, nevermind who owns, its just damn annoying with all the blast, I do think bink should be increased jusstt alittle bit for the m79.. other then that, prehapes, but PREHAPES try even a little range decreasing...

IT dosent matter really, everything u do, do its in small amounts, do not overdo it!

Hopefully the guide I'm composing will solve the public servers issue.

Also another note: M79 and Barret are 100% alt route weapons, though can be used in main routes their whole existance revoles around killing 1 guy and fast, that's low route, barret now'n'days is way too hard for some, so they choose the easy way out and go for m79..
u can still use barret and move slowly by keepign your distance, because clan wars are orginized and you should move carefully anyways knowing who you're facing..

I also agree with the oh so "gallant" GAMEOVER when he said that Soldat should be adjusted to clan wars, because that's the community that supports and developes the game, not the public gamers...

quote:I also agree with the oh so "gallant" GAMEOVER when he said that Soldat should be adjusted to clan wars, because that's the community that supports and developes the game, not the public gamers...

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Adjusting a game to cater to the elite is a bad idea. If you change the weapon balance based on the elite, it likely will make it much more frustrating for newbies to play the game, and if the flow of new people drops, the population of Soldat slowly declines into nothingness.

My point is that the majority should be the primary concern. The "real hardcore players" that GO is talking about only compromise a small portion of the population. Obviously we can't change it so Soldat doesn't take any skill at all and wipe out the upper level competition, but the point is there needs to be compromise. Take the m79 as an example. Even if the m79 is fine or underpowered in CWs, it is a major pain in publics, as 25-50% of the players are using it at one time. Obviously it doesn't need to be nerfed, as Ok pointed out, but it does need fixing. Doing something like reducing the speed of the m79 would make it harder to use in pubs, and while it would make it less effective in CWs as well, I'm sure all those "real hardcore players" can adjust to the arc.

Edit:
quote:Yar, cw's and publics are like two completely different worlds of soldat, and it never made sense to mix them up and make a weapon balance that would cover them both.
Or you do this, which also makes a lot of sense.

This thread has grown big enough for me to reply, and hopefully it will get locked / die pretty soon, because it is getting old, real fast.

Creating a balance that is both suited for Clan wars and public games is impossible, because the different characteristics of the two 'fanbases'. Clan players want fair games with variety, where teamplay and gaming skill are the qualities which distinguish the Great from the Good. In publics people want to have fun, and that's it: however, if a weapon is massly overused, the game becomes boring.

One option to solve this whole problem would be giving the M79 a delay time. Before people start throwing rocks and flames at me, did it ruin the barret? No, it didn't, the barret is still one of the strongest guns in the game, but only the real barreteers sticked with it, everyone else switched to M79, because it is the only one-shot weapon left without a delay time. That's why I think a delay would be a smart tweak: then all the insta-kill weapons would have some sort of delay time before they can make the killer blow, thus weakening the greatest advantage they once had: first strike.

The other option would be implementing Weapon limiting: that way publics wouldn't be swarmed with one type of gun, therefore they won't be boring, and we'd only have to introduce really minor modifications in the balance to make the lame winning tactics even harder to pull than they are now.

I know not at this point which of the two solutions will get implemented: however I know one thing for sure, that no matter what is going to happen in 1.3.2 / 1.4, the masses will whine like they always do, because they are too ignorant to notice that something's been done for the good of the entire community if it harms their gaming style in any way.

Well that is true, just taking care of the elite is wrong.
But the beautifull thing about it is that by taking care of the elite you also take care of the rest.
And its have been prooven, the balance have been only improving since the beta team took on the mentality of clan war beta testing, they started thinking towords that direction after seeing the spray fest of 1.2.1
thus we have a much more balanced game today.. (forget the bugs for a moment)

The only reason that m79s are a pain in the ass, is that so many ppl are using it.
We could say the same would happen with any other weapon, would u be pissed from 4 de's shooting you?
Its just boring... fighting 4 of the same is boring, we go to a public to find veriety, something we can't find vs bots.
That's why I think that allowing the limitations of the number of weapons per team is a good idea!
Its just an option, doesnt mean you have to use it. and if the league owners want it, its their right to use it, and it also maens they didnt like what's going on atm anyhow, eventualy the Soldat community will choose its leagues and by that the league owners and the server owners will adjust their settings.

quote:Creating a balance that is both suited for Clan wars and public games is impossible, because the different characteristics of the two 'fanbases'. Clan players want fair games with variety, where teamplay and gaming skill are the qualities which distinguish the Great from the Good. In publics people want to have fun, and that's it: however, if a weapon is massly overused, the game becomes boring.

I definately agree, and I also agree m79 is being way overused in publics. Yesterday I played in u13 private server for about a hour and was utterly pissed off when 4 out of 5 players on the opposing team were using m79. I could easily kill 1 of them, but it was almost impossible to get a double or triple kill... let alone grab the enemies flag

However, once again I disagree with the delay. The reason Barret is still good is because of the straight shot, curved shot + delay make it extremely difficult to use... and m79 has a really steep curved shot. Another reason is like I stated in my previous post, you are disregarding what effect this change will have on other weapon usage. Barret is now the second least used primary after minigun (even though its still effective), because it takes time to learn, and people are too lazy to learn it. I can still own people with barret in publics and clanwars, and barret is still exceptionally good in returning the flag, yet nobody is using it. All these barretards which are now m79tarding will switch to the next easiest weapon if something like delay is added, and the trend just continues. Think about the affect 1 change will have on usage of other weapons before making that change. Obviously you can say "we take this into account". But I disagree. Its just a general psychological thing that when weapon A is overpowered in this version, you will pay more attention to that weapon and weakening that weapon enough so that it wont be overpowered in next version, rather than considering other weapons which may become overpowered because of the nerf to weapon A.

Anyhow, I can propose 3 solutions which I think can work.

1. Increased reload from about 180 to 205 ish
2. Increased reload from about 180 to 195 ish and a bit lower speed
3. Weapon limiting

I think #3 is the best solution, because it will definately add more strategy into games while solving the problem of overusage. It would be extremely good if a addition like weapon limiting will bring different strats in clanwars (like the old 1 defender 2 attacker scheme), I seriously miss those days of clanwars. Now its just 3 people rushing like crap... which eventually gets boring as well... And plus, I think rather than tweaking around each individual weapon which we have tried to do for the past 4? versions, just solve the whole problem with something like this...

Maybe if m79 shots registered more than 50% of the time delay would be good...

quote:Doing something like reducing the speed of the m79 would make it harder to use in pubs, and while it would make it less effective in CWs as well, I'm sure all those "real hardcore players" can adjust to the arc.

Thats not really true. Just look at knife, about 80% of clanwar players used knife last version, atleasty 65% of them have now switched to socom/Law. I think these people are noobs... the ones that switch because thier weapon of choice the previous version was made weaker, so they go with the next easiest alternative.

But ill tell you one thing, I wouldnt stop using m79 even if a 3 second delay was added o_o

The reason im even posting in this thread is because I have a problem with these public server players generalizing and calling all m79's noobs and m79 an easy weapon to use, when they dont look outside the box and think logically. I think those people should be considered noobs which switch weapons after versions... Ive used 2 weapons since 1.1.5, mp5 and m79, and I still use both of them. Ive picked up others along the way, but mp5 and m79 remain my favourite weapons. And im not going to switch because for some reason m79 becomes the most overpowered weapon and mp5 becomes the most underpowered.

Yeah, the key to M79 is predicting the enemy's path and velocity, and timing it with developed skill of learning the angle of the shot. I rarely die to a non-camping M79 user; what traps people into dying is not taking an avoid shot first, kill second approach. By not changing your route, you just walk into the (well) fired shot. Then it's time for shouts of "M79 noob!!!1111" and further complaining on the forums. :p

People keep complaining about M79 swarms. Swarms of any weapon are annoying! This is not something limited to the M79! A wave of autos is probably the deadliest grouping in the game thanks to the bink, knock back, and pure power -- plus in waves, lots of shots connect resulting in massive genocide. I like the limit idea as it'd (hopefully) force people to learn all weapons. Then again, they could just join servers with an open favored weapon slot, which could lower players per server by quite a bit. If any limiting goes into effect, there better be an anti-AFK script to go along with it -- there really should be one already.

Dont you think you guys are over-complicating soldat?
99% of the people i know dont think m79 is a problem,i say leave the balance as it is,and let michal focus on fixing bugs and thinking up cool new thing's to add to soldat,bogging him down with pissy weapon issues isnt helping,no matter what he does with the balance not everyone will be happy,the balance as it is seems perfect,ofcourse people are still gonna whine about weapons,but they're just ugly whiners and should be slapped or ignored.

just enjoy the game 8/

I think you confused my point, OK. I'm not against or pro M79. I'm widely against whining. I'm pro shut-the-[CENSORED]-up-and-work-harder theory about life in general. The more you are able to take hardship, even though you *know* it's unfair towards you, makes you a stronger person than all the other... whiners? Yea.

There's a difference betwin hard and too hard my young padawin....
You need to make something challanging...
But no one, not ever you oh might challanger will enjoy getting raped and blased like a ping pong from 1 way to another.

I'm for making Soldat harder , all you need to do is look at my suggetions anywhere else..
Actualy just as well in here..
But you can't just comment "work harder" in this situation.
There needs to be a balance, and by saying "pro shut-the--up-and-work-harder theory about life in general" you express exactly the other extreme to the whining of "nerf to m79"!.
Extreme is never a good thing, life is all about balance...
And don't tell me "you work harder" you just gave up on soldat you chicken... ;)

Padawan*. And if it's so annoying and hard for me to play Soldat, I wouldn't whine, I'd quit. I, for one, don't consider myself so pivotal as to flail my opinion about what the best weapon balance or game feature is at the designer and beta testers. I don't believe in whining. If something is so hard that I'm convinced that I can't beat and it sucks the fun out of the game for me, I'd simply hang back and hope the next version fixes it. I never had to do this so far, and I'm not the greatest player, so I really have no idea what everyone finds so aggravating. Luckily, in this case, it's only a game. I can quit if I want to and it isn't a big deal. In life, I don't [CENSORED] and moan when a hard challenge comes along either. I can't run from life, and suicide isn't much of a great alternative for me. So what's the solution? Thought so. I agree with you that it is an extreme compared to what whiners do. I like that extreme, it serves me well. Complacency is useful quality.

Edit: I never gave up on Soldat, I merely stopped playing for 3-4 months to focus my time on schoolwork and college season. That's over now, thank God.

Man, way to crash and burn this thread luv.

Anyone else find TFS's posts more depressing than enlightening? Need to chill out guv. Spend your time here pointing things out to people, and you'll end up on medication.

Anyhow, I think anything that can be said from most objectional points of view have been cleared up. Lets move on eh? We'll all remember to be careful with the next version of Soldat, and not to f**k up the balance in some drastic manner to compensate for our 'weapon discomfort'.

I agree with tuning down the m79, it is overused

It's not that horrible. Dodge more and try to keep your distance. Try to lure him into firing his bullet, then you have 3 seconds of safety to spray him, go for flag/health, do /smoke or whatever you feel like.

Chill out? I'm not really angry. I enjoy arguements. I was just clearing up a point. I'm sorry if my drastic point of view doesn't seem to optimistic, but that happens naturally after 3 years of witnessing the same crap after each version. I was a whiner a long time ago, and I let that go by myeslf, seeing that it was futile. Why futile? Because the community average is not mobilized in one opinion. It will fall on the beta testers to do what they think is right with the game. Note: what *they* think is right. We can have arguements and discussions about relative things like this all day long, but as long as we don't change people's opinions (brainwash, effectively) our complaints and moanings are meaningless, and the game balancers will still do whatever they feel is right. Community pressure applies, sure, but as I said, we are not uniform in our taste. The community is not homogeneous in its opinion as to create an effective pressure to do what they want with the game and stop whining. I have my own taste in how Soldat should be and how more fun it is. But that is my taste, and it is probably different from many other players', and it wouldn't be fair for me to say that I have universal approval to claim that mine is the best. I'm merely surprised at how long it takes for the rest to realize this. It would appear that I have a perfectly good reason to be cynical and pessimistic, even though I'm not expecting anyone to actually change their life-philosophy just by reading my posts.

Edit: Just to add a bit of a conclusion. If it was to be truly fair to everybody, we'd either have no game at all, or have multiple versions of this game. They will be quite numerous. So numerous, in fact, that there'd be no real standard Soldat anymore, and the community will be too strung out to have an effective server list and activities such as leagues. The other thing that could happen is this: people would not deviate too much from the standard version, thinking/fearing that they'd wind up with small balance-communities, and stick to the original general idea set forth by standard Soldat and the beta testers. This brings us back to this situation, where we have official versions that most people play, and some weapon mods. Therefore, I reinforce my own point once again: Be complacent.

im not sure how balanced it is, but it seems pretty darn close. a longer reload could help if its htat big of a problem, but i dont see how this would change anythign about multiple players using the gun. doesnt advance mode limit weapon choices? :)just a though...

doing this would kill and already dying game