We have quite a paradox here IMO. M79 users are considered n00bs (or berets from 1.2.1), campers are n00bs, and (good) ruger (and shotgun and deagles) users are not noobs. Everything else is more or less in the middle.

Now here is the thing: The best M79 "style" of play is to charge directly into enemy fire and demolish them before they see you. (Either that, or for the enemy to charge into you while you are charging at them). This basically implies that the best way to counter a M79 is to predict their movements, and then snipe them off where they can't reach you (charging a M79 user == you hope they miss; bad idea)

The other weakness of the M79 is the "must load before using" thing at the beginning of games. This implies that the weakest time for a m79 user is right when they spawn.

In essence: When the enemy uses the M79, you are encouraged to camp. It is simple really, camping == easy irradication of M79 users.

Now on to the ruger: The ruger has a "running" penelty. If you use the ruger as you are running, then it becomes less accurate. So what are you supposed to do? Camp, obviously. Walking == you in a disadvantage, so don't walk, camp.

Again, we are encouraged by the game to camp.

Now add that the "prone" position makes all your machine gun bullets (even Chaingun for the first 30 or 40 shots) go *exactly* where you are aiming. But guess what? Prone == still == only real time you use prone is when you camp. Sure, there is fly prone position, but that is an overrated position.

So now machine gunners are encouraged to camp.

And I don't think I need to explain the beret or law's encouragement to camp.

There are *only* 3 guns that don't encourage you to camp: The M79, Deagles, shotgun, saw, and com. However, as said before, the M79 encourages the enemy to start camping and spawn camping because M79 == weak against campers. (BTW, knife == M79 really, except awesome hand-to-hand combat abilities and faster reload if you can pick it up quickly. Oh, and it discourages spawn campers instead of encourages it cause knife is awesome like that.)

But even Deagles, shotgun and com users can benifit from hiding behind little "ledges", as more than half of the enemy bullets tend to be deflected or blocked just by sitting behind those wall or box things littered across the stage. Not to mention, by crouching, your gun gets to shoot the enemy, but the enemy can't hit you. Again, camping is encouraged with these structures. Just sit, camp, and watch as the enemy tries to shoot you but the bullets get deflected, M79, law and grenades can't score direct hits (and you can easily kill before they shoot again).

Which leads that every weapon, except M79 and Saw, encourages camping. However, M79 encourages campers from the enemy, so really, that only leaves the Saw.

And frankly, campers can kill saw users before they can get close, especially HK, Mini and Shotgun users (which spray so many bullets, the saw users stop in their tracks)

Conclusion: Camping will always exist in the game unless the *design* of the weapons, levels, and so forth discourage camping.

If you want campers to stop, I suggest a major overhaul of the current weapons, and perhaps some discouragement to sit still all day.

i say we have anti complaining YAY

lol camping doesn't even help you win as well compared to total offense.

So...how long did this take to write this?

I think you're taking this camping thing a little too much. Camping is just a offensive and defensive technique, so you can reload, hide, and attack. All weapons can encourage camping, but it's not that big of a problem. Everyone will camp, you just got to control on how much you camp.

 Quote:Originally posted by - Tek -lol camping doesn't even help you win as well compared to total offense.

True ^^

Btw: I got a question for ya, in what case is it better to charge into a armed person trying to kill you then to sit in a cosy little bush with a nice cup of tee ? :o

 Quote:Originally posted by - Tek -lol camping doesn't even help you win as well compared to total offense.


But a little camping + offense beats total offense.

Take a CTF situation.

2 ruger campers in the middle of a map, Flag carrier uses campers as cover fire as he gets away. Even with 4 enemies vs 1 HK, the delay will be long enough for the flag carrier to get away and score.

 Quote:
I think you're taking this camping thing a little too much. Camping is just a offensive and defensive technique, so you can reload, hide, and attack. All weapons can encourage camping, but it's not that big of a problem. Everyone will camp, you just got to control on how much you camp.

On the contrary. I just don't like it when I get banned for "camping". It is an innate part of the game, and I'd like to put this out there for those people who don't think it is.

Games without campers turn into m79 + com wars. Throw in a camper or two, and the game is entirely different.

I think m79 required skill in 1.2.1.... then again... I remember it being the 2nd noobish gun in 1.2.1 :S

Camp as much as you want. Less guys in my base ^^

Alot of the stuff you said made no sense at all.

Ofcourse camping is a part of the game. You don't have to overstate that just because you got kicked off from some lame admin becuase of camping. Some people just hate getting pwned by camper because they didn't see it coming or they just don't understand the art of it. But anyway don't write such a long paragraph just to state a fact next time, sort of tires me out...

I don't always rush into battle when using m79. I like to make sure I have cover when using it, thus I may be more conservative with it and wait for the enemy to come at me for an easier shot. If he stays back and fires, with an auto for example, I can avoid damage and wait for a better opportunity to strike. This happens alot to me as I usually play alternate routes, where the enemy only has to concentrate on killing one person, so they won't be careless enough to let an m79 user close.

 Quote:Originally posted by SpectralI don't always rush into battle when using m79. I like to make sure I have cover when using it, thus I may be more conservative with it and wait for the enemy to come at me for an easier shot. If he stays back and fires, with an auto for example, I can avoid damage and wait for a better opportunity to strike. This happens alot to me as I usually play alternate routes, where the enemy only has to concentrate on killing one person, so they won't be careless enough to let an m79 user close.


Of course; but M79 with its horrable range is improper for that purpose really. The only time I think that this would be a good idea is if you have a height advantage: but a height advantage makes *any* gun good.

Then again, the best thing in this situation would be to pull out the com and snipe using your cover fire, leaving M79 loaded for that "opportunity". Use both weapons to advantage.

As for your "conservative" thing, as said in the origonal post: the best times to use M79 are when the enemy is rushing you, or when you rush the enemy. The difference is that in the former, you aren't in control, so most people prefer the latter.

lol camping is so, NOT aparent. degals? does anyone use degals anymore? lol, camping with autos, they just dont work, spraying works better, MUCH better.

here is the basic stratagy for the game:

m79-can asplode anything under certain curcomstances, (close)

autos-can shoot anything under certain curcomstances, (semi_close)

barret/ruger-can kill anything from far away.

with a perfect team of 10v10, you would want 2-4 m79ers 2 barrets/rugers 4-6 autos.

autos spraying random crap all over top/most traveled area while m79s take high and barret/ruger takes low (possibly switched or mixed) some autos acompanying other groups and possibly one m79 protecting base

 Quote:Originally posted by a-4-year-oldlol camping is so, NOT aparent. degals? does anyone use degals anymore? lol, camping with autos, they just dont work, spraying works better, MUCH better.

here is the basic stratagy for the game:

m79-can asplode anything under certain curcomstances, (close)

autos-can shoot anything under certain curcomstances, (semi_close)

barret/ruger-can kill anything from far away.

with a perfect team of 10v10, you would want 2-4 m79ers 2 barrets/rugers 4-6 autos.

autos spraying random crap all over top/most traveled area while m79s take high and barret/ruger takes low (possibly switched or mixed) some autos acompanying other groups and possibly one m79 protecting base


Ever put one camper here on KampF?

[IMAGE]

(if pic doesn't load, here is url: http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4336/terrainadvantage0pl.png)

It is difficult to take this guy down even with a sniper. Add a machine gunner behind him to take those who come out infront of the little "ledge" thing, and it is a nearly perfect defense composed of only 2 people.

And have them sit; and camp. A similar situation can come out on the top of kampf, with the ruger camper on the brownish can thingy. (blue shown here, but red can do the same)

[IMAGE]
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5789/camper5es.png

And a spawn-camper here in prone position with HK totally demolishes everything. And only if you camp in prone position will you be able to shoot as accuratly as in the picture:

[IMAGE]
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1778/spawn4gd.png

The little ledge blocks on-comming bullets. If anyone gets close, toss a grenade. Can easily stop 2 or even 3 enemies while the friendly-flag carrier escapes.

Those guys on kampf would be VERY EASY to kill since nades explode on boxes on contact.

 Quote:Originally posted by NozThose guys on kampf would be VERY EASY to kill since nades explode on boxes on contact.


Ever try it however?

The first nade *never* kills, because it isn't a "direct hit", it explodes on the box, not on the guy.

Second, you have to go through the choke point before you can get close enough to throw a grenade, more than enough time for the camper to fire 2 or 3 shots at you.

Basically, to get close enough to throw a grenade requires you to enter the ruger camper's range, the ceiling is too short and blocks high lobbed grenades, and low-grenades simply won't reach that far. Ditto with m79 shots.

the first nade asplodes near him sending him back, and kampf is a crapmap that is too small half the time, to fit all the ppl in the server

and still, having an m79 would kill them, or a law for that matter.

@This guide

One comment about rugers camping. Rugers dont camp. They arent made for camping. They're a defensive weapon, but you're ruining the advantage of its distance. It doesnt kill in 1 shot like the barret, so you can't exactly stay in one spot while someone charges you and maintain a good distance. Also, you [i]are[i] correct on the fact that it has a disadvantage of binking itself while running, but it doesnt mean the only way to fire it is in a still position.

If you ever fired ruger before while moving but not holding down the walk keys, you'll notice it doesnt bink. The only thing that affects the bullets from that point is just the bullet being thrown slightly from you moving. The gun isnt binked, the bullet is going to where it was intended to be shot but it doesnt move with your cursor as you do, thus it appears to slightly bink as some people think.

Your facts arent exactly straight as of yet. One more comment too:

@Camping in kampf

You're correct. If someone naded you while you took cover with that rock, you wouldn't die. You would however be blown to about 5-20% of your life which pretty much leaves you vulnerable to any gun that decided to charge in afterward.

 Quote:Originally posted by a-4-year-oldthe first nade asplodes near him sending him back, and kampf is a crapmap that is too small half the time, to fit all the ppl in the server

and still, having an m79 would kill them, or a law for that matter.


Again, easier said than done. I've been hit by laws and m79s there, and I've only been "popped up". It still isn't enough to kill me outright. And by the time you step into a position where you can actually hit me with m79 or law, I've killed ya already.

(remember, you can't shoot from behind that brown box, i'd deflect all your bullets. You'd have to come *below* the ledge, and above the box: a very very small choke point quite easy to defend)

From there, I can always toss a grenade if I see someone comming; which will either kill chargers before they can shoot, or they will have to hover with their jetpack like a floating balloon. It is quite easy to shoot a jetpacked user trying to dodge a grenade while going through a chokepoint.

 Quote:
One comment about rugers camping. Rugers dont camp. They arent made for camping. They're a defensive weapon, but you're ruining the advantage of its distance. It doesnt kill in 1 shot like the barret, so you can't exactly stay in one spot while someone charges you and maintain a good distance. Also, you [i]are[i] correct on the fact that it has a disadvantage of binking itself while running, but it doesnt mean the only way to fire it is in a still position.

I take it you've never used Ruger + SCom before on that spot.

Try it. Scom those who charge, Ruger before they charge. For all else, you got nades.

I know it is strange to use the SCom when the ruger "feels" more powerful, but at that spot, you also got a height advantage, and so you want as much showering as possible. Usually, I pick up someone's m79, eagles, machine gun, etc. and replace the SCom, but the SCom is an adequate replacement for a charging opponent. It is actually strong enough to "push" them back as you load them with bullets when fireing at max speed.

 Quote:If you ever fired ruger before while moving but not holding down the walk keys, you'll notice it doesnt bink. The only thing that affects the bullets from that point is just the bullet being thrown slightly from you moving. The gun isnt binked, the bullet is going to where it was intended to be shot but it doesnt move with your cursor as you do, thus it appears to slightly bink as some people think.

Excelent point: but if you are in the air, it is better to use a "heavy" weapon, such as HK, Shotgun, or DEagles (yeah, I found a use for these), where you shoot down at your enemy. I find that these guns work much better than ruger in the air, because of gravity making their bullets go faster they kinda hurt more than usual + head shots. (2 hits with deagles if I'm above you from head shots)

Is the ruger good in the air? Yes. But it isn't the best.

 Quote:

You're correct. If someone naded you while you took cover with that rock, you wouldn't die. You would however be blown to about 5-20% of your life which pretty much leaves you vulnerable to any gun that decided to charge in afterward.

Then again, by the time they actually got close enough to nade me, I've shot them at least once, leaving one hit for me, and one hit for them. (or they walked into my nade and it is all over)

Believe it or not, each weapon is very usefull for a rush attack. It's just the map and other circumstances that make you change what weapon you're going to take: camping won't make the enemy flag get up and walk to your base on it's own.

 Quote:Originally posted by dragontamer Quote:Originally posted by a-4-year-oldthe first nade asplodes near him sending him back, and kampf is a crapmap that is too small half the time, to fit all the ppl in the server

and still, having an m79 would kill them, or a law for that matter.


Again, easier said than done. I've been hit by laws and m79s there, and I've only been "popped up". It still isn't enough to kill me outright. And by the time you step into a position where you can actually hit me with m79 or law, I've killed ya already.

(remember, you can't shoot from behind that brown box, i'd deflect all your bullets. You'd have to come *below* the ledge, and above the box: a very very small choke point quite easy to defend)

From there, I can always toss a grenade if I see someone comming; which will either kill chargers before they can shoot, or they will have to hover with their jetpack like a floating balloon. It is quite easy to shoot a jetpacked user trying to dodge a grenade while going through a chokepoint.

 Quote:
One comment about rugers camping. Rugers dont camp. They arent made for camping. They're a defensive weapon, but you're ruining the advantage of its distance. It doesnt kill in 1 shot like the barret, so you can't exactly stay in one spot while someone charges you and maintain a good distance. Also, you [i]are[i] correct on the fact that it has a disadvantage of binking itself while running, but it doesnt mean the only way to fire it is in a still position.

I take it you've never used Ruger + SCom before on that spot.

Try it. Scom those who charge, Ruger before they charge. For all else, you got nades.

I know it is strange to use the SCom when the ruger "feels" more powerful, but at that spot, you also got a height advantage, and so you want as much showering as possible. Usually, I pick up someone's m79, eagles, machine gun, etc. and replace the SCom, but the SCom is an adequate replacement for a charging opponent. It is actually strong enough to "push" them back as you load them with bullets when fireing at max speed.

 Quote:If you ever fired ruger before while moving but not holding down the walk keys, you'll notice it doesnt bink. The only thing that affects the bullets from that point is just the bullet being thrown slightly from you moving. The gun isnt binked, the bullet is going to where it was intended to be shot but it doesnt move with your cursor as you do, thus it appears to slightly bink as some people think.

Excelent point: but if you are in the air, it is better to use a "heavy" weapon, such as HK, Shotgun, or DEagles (yeah, I found a use for these), where you shoot down at your enemy. I find that these guns work much better than ruger in the air, because of gravity making their bullets go faster they kinda hurt more than usual + head shots. (2 hits with deagles if I'm above you from head shots)

Is the ruger good in the air? Yes. But it isn't the best.

 Quote:

You're correct. If someone naded you while you took cover with that rock, you wouldn't die. You would however be blown to about 5-20% of your life which pretty much leaves you vulnerable to any gun that decided to charge in afterward.

Then again, by the time they actually got close enough to nade me, I've shot them at least once, leaving one hit for me, and one hit for them. (or they walked into my nade and it is all over)


its funny, how you are so wrong.

|nade|go boom|shoot|they die|/piss|move on|

 Quote:Originally posted by a-4-year-old
its funny, how you are so wrong.

|nade|go boom|shoot|they die|/piss|move on|


Red == where ruger camper can hit you.

Black == how close you have to be before you can throw a nade. And if you do, you can't "over throw" the nade, else it simply will fall down the hill to the left, and even the explosion won't hit the ruger camper. And if you are too close, it will fall back towards you, and again, miss the ruger camper.

It has to be exactly on that rock for it to explode.

And with the ruger height advantage (top of the hill), grenades don't get thrown very far. Ditto with M79.

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/8118/terrainadvantage28bi.png

[IMAGE]

I dunno bout you, but it seems pretty obvious what will happen here. The camper will get at least one shot in before the opponent can throw a grenade.

That's why there's alternate routes, ever thought of playing in a more passive matter?

Plus, it's a matter of mind games. Try throwing several nades, plays a distraction and might squeeze a move from them, if you can hit 'em fast enough, the most a good ruger user against a good nade user could get is one, maybe two shots in, they would be hit flying in a direction to the left, and giving you upper hand.

They also may not be very good at moving if they're camping.

 Quote:Originally posted by tRaQsThat's why there's alternate routes, ever thought of playing in a more passive matter?

Plus, it's a matter of mind games. Try throwing several nades, plays a distraction and might squeeze a move from them, if you can hit 'em fast enough, the most a good ruger user against a good nade user could get is one, maybe two shots in, they would be hit flying in a direction to the left, and giving you upper hand.

They also may not be very good at moving if they're camping.


All they need is 2 shots before you are dead.

And mind you, it isn't a prone position, it is croutch. All I gotta do to start moving again is push left and let go of croutch.

Mm.

1) First rule of posting, dont make assumptions, especially big ones. You think Ive never used socom with ruger, but I do infact use it with ruger, 100% of the time. NEVER will I use another secondary unless its to play with it. I find it rediculously funny that you come straight out thinking I dont use socom. 25% of my kills are with socom, dont make the same mistake.

2) Well first off, im not going to change my gun for how I shoot. The ruger is one of the best guns when they are at the top, or can be. Distance yourself from the guy to near screen distance and they wont even see it coming. If you want to test your theory of weapons being better then ruger at top especially with me, I'll be glad to.

3) You're correct again, you could have taken shots. But what you didnt think of:

- Two nades will kill you.
- Likely that two people will come in if you're camping, so either way you're dead with a low chance of killing someone.
- Spray from the base
- Someone hits you with a ranged gun while you're camping, not just the barret.

 Quote:Originally posted by ExtacideMm.

1) First rule of posting, dont make assumptions, especially big ones. You think Ive never used socom with ruger, but I do infact use it with ruger, 100% of the time. NEVER will I use another secondary unless its to play with it. I find it rediculously funny that you come straight out thinking I dont use socom. 25% of my kills are with socom, dont make the same mistake.

No, I said you've never tried Ruger + scom on that spot specifically.

Here is my quote:

 Quote:I take it you've never used Ruger + SCom before on that spot.

Which IMO, is a valid assumption, because it seems like you don't think ruger camping in general is a good idea.

 Quote:2) Well first off, im not going to change my gun for how I shoot. The ruger is one of the best guns when they are at the top, or can be. Distance yourself from the guy to near screen distance and they wont even see it coming. If you want to test your theory of weapons being better then ruger at top especially with me, I'll be glad to.

I understand. I am a ruger+scom user myself.

 Quote:3) You're correct again, you could have taken shots. But what you didnt think of:

- Two nades will kill you.
- Likely that two people will come in if you're camping, so either way you're dead with a low chance of killing someone.
- Spray from the base
- Someone hits you with a ranged gun while you're camping, not just the barret.


Don't assume I haven't though of those situations.

--For the nades: More than likely, You are dead by the time you throw the second nade. So when it hits, it is a draw if anything. Not to mention, there is always retreat for me.

Second, it only takes me one nade to kill you from that position.

If it takes you two nades, and me one nade, you call that an advantage.

--Forcing 2 people to charge at you is an advantage in CTFs. They dedicate 2x the man power. Mind you, I usually kill the person in front. When I see a nade from the second guy, I retreat and pull out SCom (or Deagles/HK/whatever if i picked one up)

--Forgot the boxes in front of the turret? You can't hit me from the base, period. Boxes are blocking low shots, and the low ledge blocks high shots. You must be inside the "red box" at least if you wanna hit me.

Then again, if you are inside the red box, you are dead (unless I'm reloading)

As for random spraying: Again, it won't hit me unless you are inside the red box. But lets say for some reason it could. I am exposed by *3 pixels* on that side. In terms of probability, I won't get hit. I am quite literally the size of a comma (, <--- for comparison). You can measure it up against the picture yourself; shots comming from that side need to be accurate to 3 pixels.

--Again, ranged gun from where? There are boxes to block shots from inside blue base, and a ledge to block high lobbed shots from blue base.

And a sprayer has better chance at hitting this comma than a sharpshooter.

Mind you, I'm not saying it is perfect: I'm saying you have a massive advantage when you camp (there at least)

Yes I agree that it's an advantage for you.
Naturally people can get lucky shot in, but that would either be quite rare or, if the shooter is a REALLY skilled barreter, just VERY slightly common.
I'd like to point out that

1)All shots curve a little and a well aimed shot with for example socom can hit you (altough this might just mean a draw since they pretty much have to either be flying or in danger. Some weapons, steyr and ruger I think, curve just enough.)

2)I could propably cap you in the 10 shots trough the simple method of shooting the weirdo ledge. (I can, at will, make really nasty ricochets even trough that stone) or that small hit area.

Other than those REALLY rare "advantage lesseners" you are pretty much safe there. I doubt the possibility of both, but one should remeber all eventualities.

I could kick your ass every single time if you stay there. With just about every gun. Nades can be thrown from a very far away position. You can get lawed easilly. You can get m79ed easilly. 2 people rush = you being dead 100%. You're doing nothing but giving out free kills. Atleast that's how it is for me, I know that publics have sucky people.

 Quote:Originally posted by OutcastI could kick your ass every single time if you stay there. With just about every gun. Nades can be thrown from a very far away position. You can get lawed easilly. You can get m79ed easilly. 2 people rush = you being dead 100%. You're doing nothing but giving out free kills. Atleast that's how it is for me, I know that publics have sucky people.


Nades don't go very far when you throwing them up a hill.

While at the same time, I can always throw my nades at you.

With law, all I gotta do is move back half an inch, and walk back up. 0% chance of hitting me. And anywhere you can shoot the law in that area. And it is quite obvious when someone is shooting the law, kinda a crouch, and delay kind of thing.

After that, law guy is dead.

M79 must be shot from far away, and thus I'll see it comming and can dodge it, or you must be close, in which it would be my fault for letting you escape the choke point.

Forcing a 2 vs 1 would be an advantage on my part, would it not? Cause if you came 1 at a time, it would be a loss for you, win for me. Forcing coordination just for a single camper means advantage on my part. Its that simple.