Well, I've heard a lot of whining and complaining about spray during my short time in Soldat. There are a lot of people who complain about spray, whether it is merely the use of an automatic weapon by an opponent or blind shooting with an automatic. So I've decided it's time for me to get the opinion of a lot of people on the matter, and I figured posting on the forums would be a good way to do it. Please, if you read this thread, post your opinion with logical, reasonable arguments. If it gets out of hand I'll ask a moderator to lock it.

Now, anybody who has played with me under my many aliases (El Barto, Bartman, Xurol, Escape, Exodus...) knows that I love my AK to death, and am starting to like the Steyr as well. I tend to favor the AK over others in most situations because I've used it for a long time and have gotten used to how it works and how to use it to full effect. One of the tactics that is useful with the AK is spraying. Now, as I see it, there are two kinds of spray, blind spray and "semi-blind" spray, semi-blind being where you know the general area your target is in but don't know exactly, so you fire off bursts in that direction to try and pick them off.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with either type of spray. I see it as just part of the game, just another tactic, and a tactic as legitimate as any other. The way I see it, I could just as easily whine about somebody using the SPAS in a close-quarters map as somebody else could about me spraying my AK on b2b. I'm not ashamed of spraying because I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of, and generally the people who complain about my spray I don't respect enough to be concerned about their opinion. Spraying well is quite difficult. It takes just as much practice and aim as using a Ruger, Barret, SPAS or any other gun you fancy.

So what do you all think? Just another part of the game, or an easy way out for those who lack the skill to fight like real men/women? If you vote please post your reasoning.

Spraying if you dont know someone there is retarded. If your chasing a wounded flagger then its acceptable.

I agree with Mancer.

Spraying might sometimes be used in publics with machineguns. But hey? Its fun. Deal with it.

I agree with Mancer aswell, spraying at nothing is just lame, however if U 'know' someone are there, then its ok

Yeah, I guess I'm with Mancer on this one.

Like others stated, spraying in certain situations is not cheap or lame(for example chasing the flag carrier). But when your whole soldat game consists of "Respawn, Start Spraying, Eventually Die, Respawn, Start Spraying, Eventually die...." In my eyes you are not a very good player. I seriously hope that spraying is taken care of next version, 2 sprayers main route in clanwars is the strongest thing any clan can do. And this is being reflected by the community now, more and more people have started to spray, even the old veteran clans. (not gonna name names here).

Spraying while in motion, for example - In Ctf_maya

Tht big cliff in the middle. While flying up top, i fire my hk-mp5 which arcs down and clears out opponents in my path.

A person who stands and fires... That's stupid

I think everyone is agreeing on the same thing. And I don't know why they wouldn't

Spraying is a part of the game. So instances it's lame, but it's something that is a good tactic in certain situations.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopI seriously hope that spraying is taken care of next version, 2 sprayers main route in clanwars is the strongest thing any clan can do.


Yes, 2 sprayers on main route is deadly, but that can be countered by 2 equally good users of many other guns...and how could spray be taken care of? It already does a lot less damage over distance, what more can be done? Making autos completely ineffective beyond the screen?

You know what pisses me off? When I'm doing damn good with my automatics (Like, Steyr for example), and I mean good As in,frickin' swheet accuracy, People always freakin yell at me! Screaming "sprayerrrr". Can't even be good with autos without always being the most hated person in the server.

*ahem*
Well guess what you [CENSORED]ing brats, they're called AUTOMATICS for a damn reason, they have RAPID FIRE capabilities, shooting a contious stream of bullets untill the clip's empty! So piss....off....

Lithium, clans that did not use to spray, have started spraying 2 autos now. Clans which hated spray spray now, mostly because there is no good counter to spray other than spray.. Clans which are extremely old-school have started to spray, extremely surprising to me. Even members on my own clan spray sometimes, and I can tell you when I spray there is no counter other than spray. So clanwars turn into spraywars... Check sctfl 7 final demos to find out what im talking about.

As far as taking care of, its a simple solution. Make a greater slope to increase the diminishing returns as distance increases beyond the screen. Damage goes down 10% per centimeter as your shots go off-screen and hit someone... or something similiar to that.

I dislike the ones who complain about spray when you can clearly see where they are.
It can be annoying if your rushing into a facefull of offscreen spray. If your at a distance its much easier to take cover or get away.

I don?t have a problem with spray. In its 'indirect fire'(blind-spraying) form, it can be lame at times but you can be safe in the knowledge that your opponent will have to reload sooner when you attack him head on.

In the form of the usage of direct firing with automatic weapons, I am not ashamed by using my minimi at all, because as lithium said, there is nothing to be ashamed about. Even when I aim my minimi at a 'pro' standard I still get called a sprayer, so I really dont have any time for people who expect me to use the minimi as if it is a ruger.

 Quote:Originally posted by Poop
As far as taking care of, its a simple solution. Make a greater slope to increase the diminishing returns as distance increases beyond the screen. Damage goes down 10% per centimeter as your shots go off-screen and hit someone... or something similiar to that.


I was being sarcastic when I suggested making autos ineffecitve past the edge of the screen, and that's pretty much making them ineffective. If you make the autos useless at long range, you'll have to make the others usless at long range too, or the other guns will be hugely overpowered in contrast. That's part of the advantage of the auto, the ability to spray. If you take that away they'll have very little advantage left, and if you make all the other guns limited to the screen as well you've got one hugely crippled game. I think it would be really tiresome if you could only hit stuff you could see directly, but that's just me.

I define spray as m79, minimi, minigun, and spas.

 Quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_Spraying if you dont know someone there is retarded. If your chasing a wounded flagger then its acceptable.


Agreed.

I don't like blind spraying, but I love to shoot where you think the enemy is by hearing his footsteps, jets or weapon. Also if he's escaping from you and he gets away from your sight range.

Hate m79? Play R/S. Make sure you hide behind polys.

Jelly, shut up and stop posting everywhere how you hate M79, we get the point. Christ. Try to keep your posts on-topic please.

lithium, if you didnt know, there was some reduction to damage on autos off-screen this version to give them diminishing returns, however I think there should be more reduction. And I was being serious, not sarcastic.

Using autos is not spray, picking up autos and shooting them without anyone on your screen is spray. And when you try it, you will notice how damn [CENSORED]ing effective it is.

saying "Oh if someone is spraying you should know where they are" is like saying "Just stay away from m79's in pubs". They are just unrealistic comments. The same way 5 opposing m79's in a pub will just pick you off, is the way spray will find a way to weaken you or kill you. You try to wait for the spray to finish and then rush, and the opposing team has reloaded and now has a height/jet advantage on you (Talking in terms of ctf_b2b and ctf_Laos). On other maps its easier to counter spray but on b2b and laos.. lol. Ill give you a solution to spray though, spray back. Just check out the sctfl 7 demos.. Trust me you will see what spray can do in those demos.

Im not saying nothing can beat spray, because spray can beat spray.. but when only spray can counter spray something is wrong..

[edit] Also I wanted to clarify Im not referring to ak and minime only here, im referring to practically all weapons. You can spray deagles or socom and they are both too effective at spraying as well. I think off-screen damage should be way lower than it is currently.. basically that is my view.

Spraying its natrual in most machine guns....im mean yeah..miniguns a bit TOO psycho/crazy/stupid/omfgwtflmfao..but as they say movign while spraying ...well i dont ave n e thing gants it....standing at base with a minigun and fireinf rapidly at enemy base while ur camping.....well thats [CENSORED]ed!

I think its pretty obivous what almost everyone thinks.
Know where the guy is=it fine
Completly blind=not ok

Leave it at that

I also hate when team mates sit in one area, generally close the flag, and just unload clip after clip.
Not only does it give your posistion away, but if you were suddenly attacked while unloading your clip, you have few bullets to take down the oncomer and sure enough, you'll die unless you pull off a secondary kill.
I try to convince em in game not to do that, however theyre always deaf to my advice.

Spray is one of the most annoying things to me, heh. It just bugs me sometimes if I don't know who they are because then I don't think they know how to aim.

So if I see a guy running towards me, I jump backwards and up into the air, spraying at him to use the knockback to prevent him from moving faster than me, giving him a one in a twenty chance of killing me instead, that wouldn't be considered lame since i knew where he was?
There is more to spray than just shooting blindly.

I just mean completely blind spraying. I am fine with it for the most part if they are actually on your screen, otherwise it is annoying.

its 1 word

weak

Nothing is wrong with spraying, but when its overused it gets anoying, when done the right way its an reliable tactic.

As in, one or two players on the team acts as a sprayer (or in other words DECOY) to drag the opponents attention while the others move close and go BANZAI when the enemy advances focused on the decoys.

Poop, I know there was a damage reduction in the new version, and I think that's already done enough. And I meant that I was being sarcastic when I made that comment and therefore was surprised that you made it into a serious suggestion.

I watched the demos right after they were posted. I saw how it was. But I know from personal experience that it's possible to beat spray with something other than spray. I've done it in gather, I've done it in clanwars. I've attacked two sprayers on main route on b2b with a shotgun and a teammate using deagles, and it's worked. All I'm saying is that it's not impossible, and personally I think sprayers on the opposing team make you work harder and think on your feet.

lithium... lol. Are you currently in a clan? If you are I want to clanwar you, we will spray and you use a shotgun and a deagles and lets see what happens. Not trying to be a [CENSORED] here but I have a extrmeely hard time believing a shotgun and a deagles can beat 2 sprayers top unless those sprayers were horrible players.

Lithium I have a question, if its possible to beat spray with something other than spray, or if spray is not a extremely strong tactic, than why has practically every clan switched to it. Not every, but alot of older veteran clans who used to look down upon spray have started spraying. My only conclusion is they figured out spray is a great way to win clanwars nowadays, or they figured out the only way to beat spray is by spraying yourself. But you can give your answer also..

This honestly wasnt really a problem 1 month ago, where only 3-4 clans sprayed, but more and more clans now are switching to spray.. why??? Why would these same clans which used to HATE spray switch to spray now?

Lithium the damage would still be the same on-screen, so same amount of shots to kill, just off-screen it wont be possible to take 2 players down to 25% health with spray, which I think is necesary. 10% damage reduction per centimeter or something like that.

If "spraying" is defined as firing on someone not on your screen, then hell yes, It's not hard to follow someone's path and use a ruger/barret/auto to pwns them..

If you mean it when someone is just spraying at nothing, then no.

Zamorak, exactly. In a sitaution where you know where the enemy is off-screen and your shooting at it, the damage will still be extremely close to 100%, for example 3 centimeters away it could be ~75% of normal damage, as you move further however, the damage will start dipping down into the 40's and 30% of the normal damage. This wont really kill people who are just chasing a flag carrier because you will probably keep a equal distance between themselves and you, but it will hurt people who respawn and start spraying, these people are hoping 4 or 5 shots will hit... and 4 to 5 shots hitting from ak is enough to weaken someone by 50% currently at a huge distance even, I think that at a huge distance 4 or 5 shots from ak should do practically no damage...

 Quote:Originally posted by Poop
Lithium I have a question, if its possible to beat spray with something other than spray, or if spray is not a extremely strong tactic, than why has practically every clan switched to it. Not every, but alot of older veteran clans who used to look down upon spray have started spraying. My only conclusion is they figured out spray is a great way to win clanwars nowadays, or they figured out the only way to beat spray is by spraying yourself. But you can give your answer also..


I was going to say that it's because spray is the easiest counter to a spraying opponent and that most people can't be bothered to learn a semi well enough to fight an auto at long range, but then I realized that I would be somewhat proving your point by saying that spraying is easier :p

So I guess I'm conceding that two auto user on main route will basically tear apart any opposition. And yeh I am in a clan, but I dun think cT scrimming BH is a good idea. I'm pretty sure we would just get pummeled.

However...I would be adamantly opposed to giving autos a huge arc over long range AND a huge (ie 10% per cm) damage reduction over range. Like I said, if you do that, you've upset the balance hugely, and other weapons will be overpowered in contrast, ie ruger and deagles. Think about your last post, Poop. Why should it be ok for an auto user to pick off a weak flagger just offscreen, but not far away, even if you know where they are? A good ruger user could easily kill a flagger at a huge distance if he knew where the flagger was.

Lithium like I said on the last page, I think every weapon's off=screen damage should be reduced, even deagles and socom and ruger... not barrets though. Im not saying only autos can spray, every weapon can spray to a certain extent.

Anyways, about the balance. Lets look at it this way. Currently is it possible to do well with ak or minime if your on-screen someone with a ruger or deagles. I say yes. So there would be no problem with balance because on-screen damage remains constant. 10% per centimeter was just an example, by no means I said IT SHOULD BE THIS. I said it should be something like this. I dont think it would unbalance anything, because ON-Screen, Ak can beat deagles just as much as deagles can beat Ak. And since every weapon's off-screen damage should be lower... yeah you got your answer.. the ruger would have as much trouble killing a person way far away as a ak or minime would.

hut

I didn't see the bit about reducing off-screen damage for all weapons. I guess that would be a pretty even solution to blind spray. And I can't say how refreshing it is to have an intelligent argument with somebody about this. Thank you everybody for your input.

 Quote:Originally posted by Poopbut I have a extrmeely hard time believing a shotgun and a deagles can beat 2 sprayers top unless those sprayers were horrible players.

Actually, It isn't that hard, I've wasted alot of sprayers on hills with Desert Eagles, Rugers...Just about everything :
And most of 'em arent suckey players...

I think the autos spray is fine now in regards to what MM did with the offscreen stuff. Spray is dodgeable. But, I really cant stand sprayers imo its just as cheap as a camper with a barret from previous versions.

Spray a viable tactic 75%
Omg where's the honour.

 Quote:Originally posted by OutcastSpray a viable tactic 75%
Omg where's the honour.


lol I was surprised by that, but just another example that this community doesnt know much about the clanwar world. o_O. Also many people here probably think spray is using a auto which it is not... so yeah.

Anyways, Mister Angry, in that case ill say your a good player, but not everyone can use deagles to beat sprayers, thats why more and more people switching to spray to counter spray. Also I still have a hard time believing it since I have never seen someone beat 2 sprayers with deagles or spas, ruger it is possible.. but still very hard

I don't really care about spraying anymore, it's a part of the game, but 'tis also been reduced in the latest version
(by lowering the damage/screens (ain't i smart?)).

In older versions i respected spray as a tactic. But back then it could be beaten just as easy as any other tactic. In the latest versions with the high damage of autos and bink on non-autos it's without a doubt the most effective one.

...Most autos are slightly weaker now.

I'm starting to find out more and more why I like playing only Alt. Because it is a smaller area and less spray can hit you. Playing strategically and planning your attacks is the best way to keep a sprayer from killing you. Random spraying in a general area the enemy is, is something that happens occasionally. There really is nothing huge that can stop all the spraying.

But this can somewhat relate with people grenade spamming a general area the enemies could be at. It's annoying and happens during every match. Might not be as common as spraying, yet it's still there. I guess I just don't know about all of this. There is really no way to make a peace between the complainers, who complaing about spraying, and the actual Sprayers.

4 AKs on Kampf, gg.

I never spray unless I think i will hit someone. Or i just want to open fire on their base. that is the only excpetion to my 'no blind spraying' rule.

Has anyone noticed that the measures put in place over the last couple of versions to prevent spray (self-bink, reduced damage etc.)
haven't done much at all. People still spray, people still get kills by spraying and the reduced power on weapons such as the Deagles has killed thier effectiveness at such a level that almost everybody runs around with an auto, whether they can aim or not. With a complete dominance of auto's you have to expect spray, especially from players that haven't learned to aim yet, then you have the decent players screwing around spraying the hell out of everything especially in public servers.

 Quote:Originally posted by GNUHas anyone noticed that the measures put in place over the last couple of versions to prevent spray (self-bink, reduced damage etc.)
haven't done much at all. People still spray, people still get kills by spraying and the reduced power on weapons such as the Deagles has killed thier effectiveness at such a level that almost everybody runs around with an auto, whether they can aim or not. With a complete dominance of auto's you have to expect spray, especially from players that haven't learned to aim yet, then you have the decent players screwing around spraying the hell out of everything especially in public servers.


Desert Eagles lost effectiveness? Complete dominance of automatics???? Whaaa?!?! *snatches crack from him*

Anyway, what I wanted to really say is...

I just realized, Back in 1.2.1 when a person sprayed with an automatic, didn't the bullets pretty much go in a predictable path since self-bink wasn't around then? Then...does that mean self bink..perhaps made spraying worse? Since the bullets tends to spray out more if you hold it down, or attempt to burst-fire. Because When I burst-fire, bullets sometimes go all over for a moment...

'tis the situation is Australian servers. The semi's hardly get used anymore since the deagles are too weak and the ruger is slower. It's either auto's or M79/Barret EVERYWHERE

Still.. the topic's about spray, not my annoyance with the past 2 versions.

GNU, You are just an anti-auto doomsayer. The ruger is fine. Yes weapons like the mp5 will be easier for noobs to use, but a half decent ruger user should easily be able to take them out. I have been using the minimi for a long time now and I still consider the ruger to be a real threat.

Ja, really good ruger users (sebastian, zamorak, mancer keke) really get on my tits. Poses a serious challenge, because they can play the long-range standoff game just as well as I can.

 Quote:Originally posted by Mister Angry...Most autos are slightly weaker now.

Well that's not right. According to the old weapons.ini Michal shared that's not right at all.

1.0.5b
[HK MP5]
Damage=89
[Ak-74]
Damage=105
[Steyr AUG]
Damage=74
[FN Minimi]
Damage=79

1.1.5
[HK MP5]
Damage=100 (+11)
[Ak-74]
Damage=106 (+1)
[Steyr AUG]
Damage=73 (-1)
[FN Minimi]
Damage=85 (+6)

1.2.0
[HK MP5]
Damage=120 (+31)
[Ak-74]
Damage=117 (+12)
[Steyr AUG]
Damage=80 (+6)
[FN Minimi]
Damage=100 (+21)

1.2.1
[HK MP5]
Damage=120 (+31)
[Ak-74]
Damage=122 (+17)
[Steyr AUG]
Damage=80 (+6)
[FN Minimi]
Damage=100 (+21)


1.3.1
[HK MP5]
Damage=104 (+15)
[Ak-74]
Damage=113 (+8)
[Steyr AUG]
Damage=73 (-1)
[FN Minimi]
Damage=86 (+7)


Owned? ;)

At least on a 1.2.1-1.3.1 scale, they have become weaker, especially with the self-bink.

Well skoskav thank you for pointing out only the weapon damage to highlight their power. If you look at their reload, fire interval, yadda yadda and contrast that with the changes made to the other weapons the autos aren't so hugely powerful as you're portraying them.

Lies. All LIES!

+-1 and 2's here and there won't really make a differance. What kills is the damage. I bet you haven't even been around since before 1.2.0. ^^ If you were you'd know the autos haven't really gotten nerfed since 1.3.0, only buffed up.

Spray is still very very effective if used right, and you can hardly counter it.

 Quote:Originally posted by OutcastSpray is still very very effective if used right, and you can hardly counter it.


Law Spray.

I'd spray only if I'd chase a flagger..

 Quote:Originally posted by 3rd_accountLies. All LIES!

+-1 and 2's here and there won't really make a differance. What kills is the damage. I bet you haven't even been around since before 1.2.0. ^^ If you were you'd know the autos haven't really gotten nerfed since 1.3.0, only buffed up.


Yes the damage kills XD But there are of coarse the other specs that matter. And al those pluses make it look like its all happy days for us auto users.

Spray is part of the game. People who spray don't have control over their aim. I don't ever hold down more than 3 seconds (unless at close range.)

 Quote:Originally posted by 3rd_accountLies. All LIES!

+-1 and 2's here and there won't really make a differance. What kills is the damage. I bet you haven't even been around since before 1.2.0. ^^ If you were you'd know the autos haven't really gotten nerfed since 1.3.0, only buffed up.


I never played before 1.2 but I did play 1.2, and I remember the whining from people who thought autos had been overpowered.

I agree that autos have been beefed up, but I was just pointing out that you make it seem like they're a lot stronger than they are. I will admit that autos or very powerful now, more so than ever, but I think when the damage numbers are taken out of context it makes them look even stronger.

in my opinion sprayers sux... when im in "any pub server" i have some noob spray at me, i get away from them yet they continue to spray.... then they kill me (WTF!!!!!!!!!) anyway theres what i think