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Soldat weapons too strong?
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - Weapon Balance Discussion
Elephant_Hunter
February 28, 2006, 10:54 pm
Soldat Weapons too Strong

I am holding a Minimi, running towards the enemy camp in a CTF game. There are two mates with me, both with HKs... following with caution. I hear the rattling sound of bullets tearing at somebody in the distance. We're almost to the camp when we spot sudden movement ahead. A hollering red named "Zip" comes from the sky and *SPLATTER!!* I have been m79ed. My teammates rush up on him in unison. I helplessly watch while they are each bored into the ground with m79 shells.

Introducing: Your power to improve

In response to DePhille's topic on whether weapons are too weak, along with my growing concern of keeping the Soldat community strong, I am starting a topic in support of weakening the weapons. I have played Soldat for three years and been a forum member for two of those years. After trying many tactics against "Zip" and many other players, I found that winning simply came down to two things: PING and REACTION. We can only fix one of those. There are three basic reasons for weakening Soldat weapons, to rid of one-hit-kill, to redouble addiction, and to give Soldat strategy. Weakening weapons will benefit the game and eliminate many problems.

First off, we need to fix the one-hit-kill. It's chaos when a player joins a CTF server and gets slaughtered in the first four seconds. Instead, players need to "dance around" and live long enough to learn how to maneuver. If you are a new player, it is awfully frustrating to be sniped immediately. Hell, I am an experienced player and I still get annoyed (mind you, this doesn't mean that I condone complaining.) Ruining fun does not bring in recruits. After careful consideration, it has become obvious that the one-hit-kill weapons need to be relieved some bit.

Secondly, we need to hook the players. Lowering the damage would give way to more dueling; something that all players love and enjoy. Have you seen House of Flying daggers or Hero, and then thought of Soldat? Let us keep pushing in that direction. Being beaten because a 12 year old kid can press keys faster than us does not give any incentive for us to keep playing. Your reaction time is what it is, something out of your control. Learning the techniques to win, on the other hand, would take just a matter of time. It is my belief that people who play longer should be rewarded for their experience.

Lastly, we give players strategy. As Soldat currently is, it doesn't matter much if I know how to dodge a bullet. If you don't have split-second accuracy then you're doomed. When you have less damage, then you worry more about what you are doing than when you are doing it. The art of combat would be the focus, not the race. No longer would a duel always be won by using the fastest and strongest weapon, but employing your mind against the opponent.

If only...

If this works out, then perhaps "Zip" will take some time to learn how other weapons work. He will realize that experience is the key to success. He'll notice the rewards of learning new techniques. Hey, he might even become a veteran someday if he tries. The benefits of toning down damage are obvious.

_Mancer_
February 28, 2006, 11:08 pm
Um in NUMBERS they are strong.. 1 by 1 they are fine.

No is my answer.

DePhille
February 28, 2006, 11:13 pm
Open the weapons.ini folder.
You'll notice that those damage settings aren't really based on anything.
Some weapons are too weak some of them too strong.

When I started the "too weak" topic I based myself on these values that showed that a machine gun is just half the power of a lousy handgun. The best part you could look at isn't the damage anymore but the characteristics of the weapon itself , it's bink , speed , ... Currently there have been way too much damage tweaks. I'm not going further into the whole Weapons.ini mess , I've posted my opinion about that 1 minute ago.
I'll be tweaking my own Weapons.ini mod and try to release it because I can't put it into words anymore.

Grtz , DePhille

MisterX
February 28, 2006, 11:17 pm
I've voted for "no". In my opinion the speed in the Soldat battles is fine. It already is of importance how good your movement is, especially against 1-hit-killers. These fights aren't automatically won by the one using this 1-hit-killing weapon, as good movement is a great aspect of dodging shots. Proning in the air greatly supports this.
And talking about the weapons themselves: Which weapon is the "fastest and strongest" one? Take Barret for example. Yes, it's very fast. And oh yes, it's incredibly strong. But don't forget that mostly the user only has one shot to kill his enemy, and bink is also a factor. It isn't only about speed and strengh, the weapons greatly differ in many ways.

Still, with the weapons.ini you can already try out your own weapon modification. If it interests you, just try to make a balance which totally supports your idea of long fights with a great focus on the movement. I'd really like to test such a weapon mod :)

Elephant_Hunter
February 28, 2006, 11:22 pm
 Quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_Um in NUMBERS they are strong.. 1 by 1 they are fine.

No is my answer.


What? Quote me and bring up a point against something I said. I'm unsure as to what you are getting to, Mancer. It would be nice, once you've decided on a topic to contest, if you brought up an example too.

Ok
March 1, 2006, 9:11 am
Ahh, my dream WEAKENING the weapons.
Ever since 1.2 the death rate in Soldat started to go higher and higher.
Fun? I don't think so! nothing is good about dieing so fast and so much.
Its pointless, it scares of new players that's for sure.
for example, a conversation with my cousin:

Ok: hey so did you try that game I showed you?
Cousin: yes, it sucks, I respawn and die before I even get a chance to move, lots of bombing on the screen and I can't understand what's going on.
Ok: oh, its just a matter of getting use to it, plus its not like that all the time.
Cousin: Nah, I think I'll stick to gunbound.

If anyone was quite into the soldat community when 1.2 came out, you must remember the reactions:
"Omg, all you need now are 2 autos in a map like Kampf or Death and you close your base completly"

"Oh god it sucks so much, I can have twice the aim my opponent have and still barely feel have to work twice as hard to beat him"

So sure, that change of autos actualy matter was a shock to most of us, but today we can see the problem, it started with the spraying rage, now we have nade spam, both together and you can just leave the keyboard alone, all the nades and the bullets will lead you somewhere, wheather its good or bad, well that's no up to you.

Most of the time, you get the feeling that it really doesnt matter what you do, its a matter of ping, a bit of reaction time, but mostly luck.

DePhille
March 1, 2006, 10:44 am
Weakening the weapons isn't the solution to that, it'll only make things worse.
So far the damages are crap , open the weapons.ini file and see for yourself.

What we should do however is change the weapons characteristics. So that they are good in close range for a fast kill but only do like 10% damage at mid-range etc.

Grtz , DePhille

Yukwunhang
March 1, 2006, 11:51 am
I think DePhille is trying to balance the weapons by making the autos stronger, while E_H tries to weaken the one-hit-killers. I don't really know which one is a better, but DePhille's seems to be more difficult because there are more autos then one-hit-killers in Soldat. At the same time, one-hit-killers are also hard to fix too, because the most important variables IMO, damage, cannot be changed or it would lose the whole point of an one-hit-killer.

_Mancer_
March 1, 2006, 12:55 pm
 Quote:Originally posted by Elephant_Hunter Quote:Originally posted by _Mancer_Um in NUMBERS they are strong.. 1 by 1 they are fine.

No is my answer.


What? Quote me and bring up a point against something I said. I'm unsure as to what you are getting to, Mancer. It would be nice, once you've decided on a topic to contest, if you brought up an example too.


Assuming that this is a question:

Poll Question:
Soldat Weapons too Strong(?)

I answered accordingly.. I don't beleive they are strong. Only in numbers, as in more than 1 weapon versus you they are strong. By themselves they are all mostly even/balanced.

In general I just think the weapons are not too strong and not too weak. its hard to get used to a weapon and to be good with it, I don't want longer battles and more chances to lose.

-Claw-
March 1, 2006, 3:11 pm
Mancer, mancer... mancer...

This one shows greatly the way everyone thinks.

"I don't want longer battles and more chances to lose."

If you lose, you give others more chance to win. If you want to kill fast, not to die, grab and camp with barrett. (and get whined about it.)

It is about WHOLE SOLDAT, not THE ONE AND ONLY ONE, MANCER, as you proved that you just think winning, and yourself. This gives some real inaccuracy when you talk about weaponbalance, doesnt it if you think your own advantage? :|

Can you explain me how do you lose more, if weapons are weaker. As i see this: You are talented, and skilled, i know it, and seen you playing by my side, agaisnt me, and even spectating you. But anyway; You need more SKILL to KILL, more HITS, are you now admiting that you dont have that SKILL required to KILL someone? I suppose yes. Grab barrett and camp, you can kill with no real skill. :)

DePhille
March 1, 2006, 3:32 pm
Yukwunhang: Editing a .ini file isn't a hard job to do it can only take time to tweak the settings. Difficulty ain't realy a problem because we all know how to edit a weapons.ini file and test it. It'll require some time though , some weapons you can easily change 50% without noticing and some you cannot change 1% or they get completely nerfed or overpowered.

Damage values themselves are very easy to edit , that is , if you change the other values aswell. You cannot really change one value of a weapon dramaticly without ruining it , if you change something dramaticly it'll have to be compensated.

If you open the weapons.ini file you'll see that one-hit-one kills have good damage values compared to other one-hit-one killers. If you start comparing the other weapons you'll notice that the problem ain't really the one-shot-one kill weapons but the automatic rifles and handguns for example. Their damage has been changed out of , I don't know, maybe lazyness? Damage should be the major thing , something that is realistic for the weapon (Wether it's Soldat or not) and that shouldn't be changed alot. The changes should be between the other values such as reload time , bulletspeed , and so on. If you only change the damage then eventually each weapon will feel the same , if you change the more visible options like bulletspeed and such you actually start creating the opportunity for weapons-tactics.

Grtz , DePhille

Yukwunhang
March 1, 2006, 4:27 pm
The difficult thing I was talking about is the tweaking of weapons. Every weapons should be unique and weapons in the same group would more likey to be similar. Since 5/10 of the weapons are autos, keeping all of them to be different from others and balanced is harder than semis and one-hit-killers. I mean, autos would always be affacted the most because they occupy the most room on the weapons menu(Primary, that is), but focusing on them would make it ever more harder.

Anyway, we have the time so we don't haveto rush. We would just try every possible way until we get the best balance.

_Mancer_
March 1, 2006, 7:55 pm
 Quote:Originally posted by -Claw-Mancer, mancer... mancer...

This one shows greatly the way everyone thinks.

"I don't want longer battles and more chances to lose."

If you lose, you give others more chance to win. If you want to kill fast, not to die, grab and camp with barrett. (and get whined about it.)

It is about WHOLE SOLDAT, not THE ONE AND ONLY ONE, MANCER, as you proved that you just think winning, and yourself. This gives some real inaccuracy when you talk about weaponbalance, doesnt it if you think your own advantage? :|

Can you explain me how do you lose more, if weapons are weaker. As i see this: You are talented, and skilled, i know it, and seen you playing by my side, agaisnt me, and even spectating you. But anyway; You need more SKILL to KILL, more HITS, are you now admiting that you dont have that SKILL required to KILL someone? I suppose yes. Grab barrett and camp, you can kill with no real skill. :)


Woah there dude put your guns away/

1st off, it already DOES take skill to get kills it takes right now with current guns. I would rather have quick battles than long drawn out ones because the faster the satisfaction is (whether you win or lose) the better the gameplay is and the more fun the game is. I like soldat because its fast and different, I dont want to spend any more time then I already have to to kill someone!

 Quote:doesnt it if you think your own advantage? :|

How exactly am I thinking to my own advantage? If I disagree that means I disagree for Everyone in soldat (even though their opinions are different) because I dont see an "agree but keep weapons strong for mancer" option. I want to earn my kills with the weapons' strength that they are right now, not have some pussy run away from me every time I wound them because thats whats going to happen to me if weapons get weaker.

Don't slaughter my opinion just because it clashs with your own.

-Claw-
March 2, 2006, 2:09 pm
Tell me, what makes you to lose more if weapons are changed?

Others loss is others win.

Is it the ruger? yes, 4 shots in row is harder than 2-3, but i still see nothing that wouls make you to lose more. :|

More powerfull weapons make this game to be more reactions based. It will produce more spray.

_Mancer_
March 2, 2006, 2:12 pm
If the battles are longer that means more chances to lose/win. Which in turn draws out gameplay and makes it slower.

-Claw-
March 2, 2006, 4:26 pm
Im pretty sure you are better than average people you play against, you win more, no problem should exist then.

Changing respawntime can make huge differences aswell.

_Mancer_
March 2, 2006, 7:46 pm
Im not using myself here.. Im stating for all people. Sure I would be fine, but what about the people who arent necessarily good at soldat? Every think of them?

Deleted User
March 3, 2006, 12:41 am
Three words: Team Fortress Classic. Weak as hell weapon, 1 hit kill sniper, overpowered minigun. NOT GOOD.