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General query - is this balance gonna be about...
Soldat Forums - Soldat Talk - Weapon Balance Discussion
March 1, 2006, 4:52 pm
...learning curves?

People are becoming exceptionally fond of the Barret, despite it being made harder to master in 1.3. Basically, the barret got a steeper learning curve yet at the same time it can still be mastered and render itself incredibly effective.

This what you peeps trying to do to the m79, and perhaps others? I just wanted to clarify, 'cos thats what it seems like to me.

Which is why it appears to be a delicate matter; how do you make m79 harder to use, yet once mastered, still be as effective in the right hands? And when doing so, how do you make it worthwhile when compared to supposedly easier alternative weapons?

March 1, 2006, 4:54 pm
The anwser to the last question is here: http://www.soldatforums.com/topic.asp?topic_id=31430

The Geologist
March 1, 2006, 5:42 pm
The solution to balance isn't to be found within slapping a delay on any weapon people have a problem with. Give it an increase in power to kill the people using it at point blank range, or make some minor changes to bink and related .ini properties.

March 1, 2006, 6:04 pm
 Quote:how do you make m79 harder to use, yet once mastered, still be as effective in the right hands? And when doing so, how do you make it worthwhile when compared to supposedly easier alternative weapons?

Add a 10 tic startup time, 14% longer reload and 18% faster bullet speed.

It's what I've implemented in my own WM (can be found in partially 1337 mods) and it works like a charm, noobs can't aim and skilled players can't spam.

March 1, 2006, 6:10 pm

With it, you secure that there isnt real skill needed, just the skill to know how does weapon act at different speeds.

deagle player - can be ~100% accurate
Mp5 player - ~70-80%
Ak - ~90-100%
Steyr AUG - ~80-90%
Spas - in theory 100% accuarate, but not all pellets can hit.
Ruger - 70-90%
M79 - 95-100%
Barrett - 60-80% (depends on speed, camping can make 100% accuracy without bink)
Minimi ~70-80%
Minigun - ~50-65% (With small bursts 70-80%)

Barrett is kind of a cool, since it has highest random factors, how in the [CENSORED] can you learn random factor? there no way to be "Skilled", skill stops at some point, and then i ti just matter of luck & reactions.

In skill based games there should be as small random factor as possible, IMO so skilled players really get rewarded their training.

March 1, 2006, 10:37 pm
I agree with Geologist. Everyone seems to be fond of those load-up times and all because they are easily visible in game and only require one change to have an impact.
I'd change other values such as bulletspeed or whatever.

Grtz , DePhille

March 1, 2006, 11:43 pm
Well delays do seem to be 'the thing' for adding a sense of skill to a weapon, which in essence is just a good sense of reflexes and timing.

Which is exactly my point: it doesn't seem to be about nerfing the weapon exactly as just altering the weapon's learning curve, ie: making it more difficult, while still somehow maintaining it's usability. People who've mastered the delay on the barret can use it as skillfully as those who used it before 1.3.1

(not that i'm saying i'm pro-m79-delay...just illustrating)

March 1, 2006, 11:59 pm
Fix it like how I said:

 Quote:That is how you fix the m79! By making it realistic, Except instead of 30m, just a few feet. This way, idiots can't run into you and m79 you from point blank range. If they tried, the nade would just fall to the ground and be a dud. I like it.

Basically, if you nail someone with m79 from point blank, it becomes a dud, like a real one would (the don't explode within a certain amout of time, to protect the shooter from fragmentation).

This way, the idiots who run around and nail you from an inch away are screwed, but the real pros who have mastered the arc and can pull off distance shots.

And besides that, maybe just some more movement acc.

March 2, 2006, 12:07 am
But that isn't possible with the weapons.ini ...we can't expect or ask Michal to add all these little 'things' to the balance, especially when he currently isn't making nor planning the next version of Soldat yet.

(tip: read the stickies)

March 2, 2006, 12:08 am
I liked where this was going [URL].

My suggestion...
1.5 to 2 seconds after it is fired the projectile is armed. At this point it can explode on impact or just sit on the ground.
1 to 2 seconds later it goes boom no matter what.

Keep the self damage points that where added on last update

The Geologist
March 2, 2006, 12:47 am
bja, it's already been mentioned that we're looking for ideas possible within the confines of the current weapons.ini, which this is not.

March 2, 2006, 1:54 am
...if a update is not in the works then why are we even worrying about it? I like how the number of glitches and proublems have been piling up over the past few versions and then just left alone... I think at this point it would be better to go back and fix the old framework rather than just trying to make it work anyway.

Damage - will not change the weapon
Fire Interval - wont matter either, the people who use this weapon will wait as long as it takes for a simple one shot kill
Ammo - not even a question
Reload Time - see Fire Interval
Speed - distance shots aren't in the range of a m79 users skills any way. Still point blank is still the same time no matter how fast it is fired
Start up time - we already have a law. One shot fire is what a nade launcher is for
Bink - one shot weapon, what will bink do?
Movement accuracy - You start screwing with that and people will get even more lucky shots

Good! now we are back with the same problems we started with!

The Geologist
March 2, 2006, 2:09 am
Do you even know what you're talking about?
Damage will indeed change the weapon, but what kind of damage is the question. Self damage would be the thing to look at in this case.

Reload time is another option, and not the same as the fire interval...your overgeneralization of how everyone uses this gun is funny. Longer reload times would go a long way to how the weapon is used, could lessen boosting, and would definately counter the power of the weapon.

Speed...that's just a joke. You overgeneralize way too much.

Bink will do a lot of things. You have one shot - you have to use it properly of you're screwed. Increasing the bink would add an advantage for auto users. Not everyone fires at point blank range, so yes, bink does change how the gun works.

The same goes with movement acc - Lucky shots? How will changing the movement acc lead to more lucky shots? I highly doubt the movement acc will be lowered, which leaves only an increase or no change, which means more time the player has to stand still to aim. How will this lead to more lucky shots?

Not all players use this weapon at short distances. Some prefer to use it at long range, as hard as that may be to believe. Since it is up to MM to update and change this game, I'm just guessing that we're going this route to try and solve a problem without creating more work for him. There are solutions to be found within the current weapons.ini capabilities, so we're trying to make use of them.

March 2, 2006, 2:10 am
(read the stickies)

Deleted User
March 2, 2006, 4:45 am
Make Barret speed into Ruger speed
and Ruger 20% faster than DE.

Problem solved. Or maybe a little weaker Ruger... it's not as bad in norm as it is in R/S (secondary barret)

Teh Smiem
March 3, 2006, 11:34 am
omg. Don't mess up the barret a bit more. That way you outbalance barret and ruger. come on, just learn to master a weapon instead of making it too easy to handle shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

March 3, 2006, 2:26 pm
 Quote:Originally posted by JellyMake Barret speed into Ruger speed
and Ruger 20% faster than DE.

Problem solved. Or maybe a little weaker Ruger... it's not as bad in norm as it is in R/S (secondary barret)

Yay, let's cripple the ruger even more than it already is!

March 3, 2006, 3:05 pm
still the random factor is the problem.

More random factor -> more depending on luck. :|