I disagree with the longer spas and deagle fire interval semis already have to play catch up with autos.

The law in its current form is fine just cut "charge" time

The knife speed is a good idea I could see it maybe fixing that almost fully charged knife that hit someone and didnt kill.

more to come as I play with this balance..

I agree completely with those statements.
Deagles shouldn't be changed , atleast not in balancing way. You can always change it but keep their efficiency the same.

"More to come when GAMEOVER played more with this balance and I did too"

Grtz , DePhille

With the increased reload, semi's needed a little weakening aswell. By the way, the amount I raised the fire intervall is laughable, you'll barely notice it.. you miss out 1 shot every 10th shot or so. No biggy. Besides, SCYA recommended the Spas weakening, and he's using spas. Can't go wrong there.

It's not because an experienced spas user sais that the spas is overpowered that this is so. You need several people to confirm this before actually making a change for the whole Soldat community.

Anyway, now the spas is even more weaker than the ruger for example. (not aiming to bring down ruger here heh so lso keep talking about other weapons x.x). Maybe the next version makes place for some strengthenings too.

Grtz , DePhille

Spas does solid two hit kills within a screen range, one hit kills on close up in the hands of an experienced user: not to mention the awesome defensive value of the push-back it has. These paired with it's movement enhancing abilities make it slightly overpowered with the raised automatic's reload, so I took SeanCapsyourAss' idea and raised fire intervall by a little bit.

We'll see whetever Ruger's dominating in this balance or not. If it is, something will be slapped on it too.

Yea well maybe the spas should be a bit more based on close range after all, didn't bear all those arguments you had in mind.

The deagles were fine in my opinion though , If I'd change them I'd put bulletspeed lower but damage higher so it can compete vs the spas with close-range weapons.

Maybe add some bink to the ruger to make it more long-ranged and less close-ranged. It's fairly easy to take out someone from close-range with it , even VS an auto. Dunno if increasing the bink should require a change for the bulletspeed or damage value for example.

What I do like to see is some weapon getting changed alot , for example the minigun. Nobody actually uses the minigun in an efficient manner except for flying and spraying , that's why you never see it in clanwars. I think we should try to drastically change some options of this weapon and see how the community reacts , for example decreasing bulletspeed , increasing selfbink by alot and also increasing damage.

Grtz , DePhille

 Quote:Originally posted by DeMonIcWith the increased reload, semi's needed a little weakening aswell. By the way, the amount I raised the fire intervall is laughable, you'll barely notice it.. you miss out 1 shot every 10th shot or so. No biggy. Besides, SCYA recommended the Spas weakening, and he's using spas. Can't go wrong there.


Well imo the autos have the advantage as it stands, in order to balance it imo you have to give them the longer reloads, give the deagles a TINY longer reload, give the m79 a long reload, and keep the barret and ruger reload the same. If you add longer reloads on all weapons how exactly is that balancing? All that will do is slow down the game and leave us exactly where we started in the end. So leave the semis (expecially deagles and ruger) alone for most part if you want to see balance.

I like the spas in its current form and have not heard 1 complaint about it so why go ahead and mess up a perfectly good weapon?

With the ruger it takes 3 shots to kill most of the time. I miss less then most but I dont get the critical headshots as much, weaken the ruger at all and im gonna drop it no way am I gonna wanna make every shot hit every time. Keep it the same. Again this weapon is a lot more sluggish than in last version, its even harder to rush with it with its already decreased fire interval. Same with the spas on this one.

 Quote:Maybe add some bink to the ruger to make it more long-ranged and less close-ranged.

I disagree with the bink also very strongly its not really a long range weapon more of a mid range weapon. Tell me how its fair and balanced that ruger gets more bink when it cant even effect other users of any weapons bink what so ever. The deagles even bink others more then the ruger does.

 Quote:We'll see whetever Ruger's dominating in this balance or not. If it is, something will be slapped on it too.


I agree, but you wont see it dominating not even close.

 Quote:What I do like to see is some weapon getting changed alot , for example the minigun. Nobody actually uses the minigun in an efficient manner except for flying and spraying , that's why you never see it in clanwars. I think we should try to drastically change some options of this weapon and see how the community reacts , for example decreasing bulletspeed , increasing selfbink by alot and also increasing damage.

I agree id like to see this a useable primary.

Keep the ruger the same. If it is nefed, it will be one of the hardest weapons to use and not many noobies will think about using it. If it is strengthened, the good ruger users will dominate even more than they normally do. The ruger is a good weapon if you get used to it, as in it is hard to use, but if you get decent at it, you can dominate because of its very fast and effective kill speed.

A good ruger user is a VERY hard target and he will kill you much quicker before you kill him unless you shoot fast and accurately to try and get some sort of bink on him.

Semi's are pretty good, even if their fire intervals HAVE been lengthened. Deagles are a big more fun to control, now that it takes longer to fire off another round, and same with Spas.

In R/S, Spas is a 1-hit kill, and in norm, it kills over easy. I'm in favor of weakening Spas.

And Gameover, what's with you and semi-auto's? They're not going to win every map, but Ruger's pretty damn good on Laos and Kampf. I've tried Ruger, and in my own personal opinion, it should have a longer reload time, more bink, and longer fire intervals.

And Deagles should get less speed... I liked 1.3 Deagles, because they had even curviture to kill lots of stuff in Viet by shooting over the poly's...


Overall, it's pretty good... better than 1.0b. I hate how Socom feels weak though... even in Realistic mode.

BTW - Barret's movement account and bink is considerably low... so low that I think you can get shot straight on with Steyr Aug and still shoot them out the air (in norm, because in Realistic, Barrets get this bink bug that keeps your bink waaay up, even if you switch to Socom.)

First of all I think we should divide Realisticmode and Regularmode up into two weapon.ini files.

On-topic: Ruger is not the main weapon to change, I think we should try to get those damage values quite close to realism and start chaning the rest of the values (like I said a few times before heh).
For example the mini's damage should be taken up alot. Currently it's just a slow shooting steyr. Take it's damage up alot and increase selfbink alot too. Make the machinegun something that can replace the Stationary guns in a less accurate and a less powerful way.

Talking about the stationary gun , I think this gun needs a complete makeover. Botk skin and weapon stats-wise. SO it doesn't fully fit in this discusiion actually. Like make it fire slower , with les damage , some bink , change the skin to an MG42 or a minimi that is placed onto some sand bags and make it fire like a machinegun does (medium ranged , fast , powerful , recoil , ...) that could actually put back the stationary gun into the game , as it is the less used weapon of them all.

I'd really like to see something really new in the weapon balance , if that doesn't work out well then you can change the weapon balance with the next version. If it does the whole Soldat game will get a boost by just changing some simple values :)

Grtz , DePhille

Minimi should shoot something like a m249, it should shoot moderately slow and be inaccurate.

About the minimi, I have been a 'loyal' minimier for some time, but i'll try and be unbiased, well, try..

@DePhille, Although the minimi has became weaker and more like the steyr since 1.2.1, it is fine as it is because of the higher damage and bullet speed. It does not need any strengthening.

@Jelly, that would totally kill the minimi unless the damage is hiked up, and that would just turn it into an ak.

Ak is better than minime in almost all maps currently, due to higher damage, better accuracy, shorter reload. But you cant leave minime alone if you increase ak's reload by 33%.

The same goes with semi's, you cannot leave them the way they are currently if you increase reload of autos. Gameover, autos are not overpowered or stronger than semi's. The thing they are trying to fix is spray, currently the weapons are extremely balanced with eachother in alot of situations, its the abilkity to spray which makes autos too strong in certain situations. Thats why they increased reload.

Talking about the Spas: I also use it very often, I guess after the deagles it's my second-most used weapon, yet I also agree to a more or less slight nerf. But in my opinion there's a more important thing than the fireinterval which has to be changed: The push-back effect. If you ask me it's too strong, especially when the Spas is used in a defensive way. Also when you're fleeing with a flag you can nearly make your enemies stop totally with it. It already has great advantages in close combat, so it certainly wouldn't make it be underpowered if we "disarmed" to a certain extent.

 Quote:@DePhille, Although the minimi has became weaker and more like the steyr since 1.2.1, it is fine as it is because of the higher damage and bullet speed. It does not need any strengthening.

The gun isn't going to be strengthened. It's going to be changed so that it has more personality and usefullness in specific situations but it's overall eficiency isn't going to be weakened or strengthened.

 Quote:Ak is better than minime in almost all maps currently, due to higher damage, better accuracy, shorter reload. But you cant leave minime alone if you increase ak's reload by 33%.
THis is a clear situation of where we should power up the minimi instead of weakening the AK. BY strengthening I mean not necessarily increasing damage but creating something where the minimi can win over the AK, more damage but less bulletspeed for example. Thatd make Minimi a strong ranged med and short-ranged weapon but useless at long range versus the AK.

Grtz , DePhille

Thats called Deagles.

 Quote:Originally posted by DePhille Quote:@DePhille, Although the minimi has became weaker and more like the steyr since 1.2.1, it is fine as it is because of the higher damage and bullet speed. It does not need any strengthening.

The gun isn't going to be strengthened. It's going to be changed so that it has more personality and usefullness in specific situations but it's overall eficiency isn't going to be weakened or strengthened.

 Quote:Ak is better than minime in almost all maps currently, due to higher damage, better accuracy, shorter reload. But you cant leave minime alone if you increase ak's reload by 33%.
THis is a clear situation of where we should power up the minimi instead of weakening the AK. BY strengthening I mean not necessarily increasing damage but creating something where the minimi can win over the AK, more damage but less bulletspeed for example. Thatd make Minimi a strong ranged med and short-ranged weapon but useless at long range versus the AK.

Grtz , DePhille



You're forgetting one thing. The autos aren't really suppose to all beat eachother in 1on1 situations every other time.

Compared to the other autos, Minimi already has it's own strengths in certain situations which would be fighting against two or more enemies at once. The AK is at it's best against up to two enemies, while Steyr is by far the best 1on1 auto, although beaten in close range by mp5.

To clarify, don't judge a gun solely on it's 1on1 capabilities.

Will you guys never learn, and change the weaponbalance really EACH version ? Is it so hard to live with an existing weaponbalance ? An existing balance that was made by the bloody fookin' same discussion-process as this ? An existing balance which is already the 9th ( or is it the 11th ? ) POSSIBLE 'perfect' weaponbalance ?

I'm pretty aware weaponbalance-discussions are part of the 'soldatculture', but for the love of God don't we all have enough of this ... this is going on for about 4 years now ... ( The fact ppl are still declaiming their own DIFFERENT theories about the so-called perfect weaponbalance already says enough it's quite useless to fall again in the spiral of eternal tinkering ... )

Simply leave the weaponbalance as it is now, ( try to ) learn to live with it, and give Michal some bloody rest ... ( and time to get rid of the known bugs ).

Go fookin' discuss on WoW-forums about the weaponbalance, if there are any weapons used in WoW that is ... but stop screwing around with soldat ... cause you just feel a pathological need to do it ...
It's about time soldat approaches a final version, a version with as less bugs as possible, unless like the previous versions. But i guess that would make the future looking a bit too dreary for a few everlasting nagging pedantic guys ...

It has never been stated that the weapon balance is perfect by any means. We are just getting closer to it. You want to know why we dont "leave the weaponbalance as it is now" and "learn to live with it". That's because this game is still played very seriously, mostly in clanwars. The goal in these clanwars mainly is to see which of the dueling clans is the better one. But in order to being able to get this result, a proper weapon balance is a strong requirement, otherwise a fair match can't be given.

For sure the balance can never be perfect, so also clanwars will never be perfectly fair. But it can improve. And improving is what we do. Also we don't just create a new weapon balance for each version, but we "tweak" the previous one. So the better the balance gets in one version, the fewer and smaller changes will be made in the next. It's like math, evaluating a squareroot yourself; Definitely you can't get the perfect result, but you can get a close, satisfying one.

And by the way: Michal doesn't have much to do with the weapon balance anyway. So he definitely doesn't lose time dealing with the balance whilst he could fix bugs. After each version's release he takes a long break, which is just as long as he wants it to be, and yet he hasn't started working on the next Soldat version.

Minimi annoys me, but its reload is so slow that almost no serious player uses it ;_;

Well, it's quite clear, taking a look at the version history of soldat, you'll never would come even close to a ( widely accepted ) perfect weaponbalance ... By every 'improvement' ( bink, delay, ... ), you create more damage to the authencity of soldat, in my opinion. As far as I know, clans don't look in the future to find a new improved weaponbalance, but look back in the past, to previous versions ( 1.05b, 1.1.5, 1.2.0 ), which also should give you a little hint about the latest previous 'improvements'.

Anyway, i'm aware i talk to walls here, so all i can do is wish you the best luck finding the perfect balance we're all waiting for.

 Quote:Originally posted by PulpAs far as I know, clans don't look in the future to find a new improved weaponbalance, but look back in the past, to previous versions ( 1.05b, 1.1.5, 1.2.0 ), which also should give you a little hint about the latest previous 'improvements'.
There are quite different opinions, but yes, also the one you mentioned. The problem is: Some played an older version and liked it entirely, but others played it, liked the game, but weren't fine with every part of it. So as we're changing the balance, some will like it better and better, for some it'll be the opposite.

At least I can just say that I love the changes which are being made. This game more and more becomes a "fair" game, so that in clanwars really the skill decides if you win or lose it, rather than which weapon has the best easy-to-use/strengh relation and how much you used it, like it used to be with the Barret in older version (strongest and fastest weapon in the game, yet also one of the easiest to use). But certainly you can't make everyone be happy. It's just impossible.

As far as I can tell, I liked 1.2.1 Barret noobs more than 1.3.1 m79 noobs. No kidding. I even liked having a noobish Ruger, compared to the Ruger that requires some skill now in 1.3.1.

edit: let's talk about secondaries. I love knife. So efficient now. :D

 Quote:Originally posted by JellyMinimi annoys me, but its reload is so slow that almost no serious player uses it ;_;


As the minimi has enough ammo to kill 3-5 people, the reload speed is fine as it is. It can get a bit risky when trying to cap the flag but its not that slow.

I think that You should perhaps lower the Minimi Dmg to around 75-82, but lower the firerate to 8, And increase the selfbink alittle, That way, it's different from the ak, it's faster firing, but a bit harder to use, And maybe Raise the ak firerate to 12, but increase its damage, and give it only a 30 round mag, More damage, so only a few shots to kill, but more time to fire, and less ammo to kill with, that way it is harder to use, but more effective.

Good idea. But then again... Minimi's supposed to be a heavy gun... maybe slower intervals and more power?

The minimi isnt a heavy gun, Its pretty lightweight considering its a machinegun. Also, Machinguns arent always powerful, its the rate of fire that makes them so effecient.

I'm not that sure... on most games, an m60 or a m249 SAW (as it was supposedly GOING to be named, or somewhat like that, since minimi's gfx name is m249) is a slow to fast firing HEAVY GUN with LITTLE ACCURACY. Great supporting fire gun.

EDIT: Silly me

Ok the main reason i suggested raising the fire time between spas shots was because of boosting and momentum. To use to spas effectivly atleast you need to have some sort of movement and the enemy needs to be moving towards you, or basically standing still (an enemy that retreats is annoying as hell). The longer reload between shots should mean that the spas user is less able to boost himself or others effectivly.

It also means that an enemy might be able to gain some momentum in between shots. What would be nice to see is the push-back effect on the actual spas user be reduced, so momentum might play less of a roll in the use of the gun and thus become more user friendly.

As to everyone saying that the spas "can" kill in one shot, thats not true unless you are slightly injured or a nade didnt register on your screen. The spas for me should normally kill in 2 shots but often b/c of unregistered bullets goes to 3/4 which isn't really that big of a problem compared to ruger users.

I could be completly wrong about this, and I know for a fact there are many people who use the spas as good or better than myself. As long as the deagles gets beat with the nerf stick too I'm happy. I still hate rugers thought.

BTW I wouldn't be opposed to the spas's damage being upped from 122 to 124 :)

FN mime's acc shouldnt be increased so much, it would just make spraying easier

Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (STANAG 4172)(Note: The XM214 Minigun uses this ammo to, so does the steyr)
Action: Gas-operated, open bolt
Mass:

* 6.9 kg (15.2 lb) empty
* 10 kg (22 lb) w/ 200 rounds

Length: 1,038 mm (40.87 in)
Barrel length: 465 mm (18.3 in)
Rate of fire:

* 725 round/min w/ ammo belt
* 1,000 round/min w/ M16 magazine

Belt/Magazine:

* 200-round M27 disintegrating links
* 100 or 200-round re-usable soft packs
* 30-round STANAG (M16) magazines
* 100-round Beta C-Mag

Effective range: 1,000 m (FN Herstal)

600 m, point target, fired from the shoulder/1,000 m suppression; 800 m, area target, fired from the shoulder, point target, prone (U.S. Army doctrine)
400 m, point target/600 m area target, prone (Australian Army doctrine)
Production: 1982?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-From Wikipedia


This is just my interpretation, but it seems to me, like its light compared to normal machineguns, and also it seems like it fires pretty fast...

M2
Type Heavy machine gun
Nation(s) of Origin United States of America
Era Post-WW1
History
Date of design 1921
Production period 1932?
Service duration 1932?present
Operators See text
War service World War II, Cold War, modern
Variants M2HB, M2HBQCB
Number built
Specifications
Type Fully-automatic machine gun
Caliber .50 in (12.7 mm)(Note: The barret usis this ammo to, and the desert eagle uses a shortend version)
Barrel length 1.14 m
Ammunition .50 BMG (Note: The barret usis this ammo to)
Feed System Belt-fed
Action Recoil-operated; short recoil
Length 1.65 m
Weight 38 kg (58 kg w/ tripod)
Rate of fire 550 round/min
Muzzle velocity 3,050 ft/s (930 m/s)
Effective range 2,000 m
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-From Wikipedia

This is the M2, Just for a comparasin.

Note, The italics are my input.


Also, The Acc should be increased. Because the minimi is light, more force is put into your body from the recoil, than if it were in a heavier weapon, if you arent holding it still, you WILL miss.

IMO the spas shouldnt have any kick back at all. I mean you got more powerful weapons like the law, barret, etc and they dont give you any kick back so why does spas? How about we try a spas with the same stats as this version but ditch the kick back.

The LAW doesnt have recoil because it is electricaly powered. Not sure on the Barret, IMO it should have recoil, cept when proning, because the barret usuallly has a bipod...

Also, The spas has much laarger kickback then even a .50cal gun, it has a large bullet, and several fragments, in order to get the fragments to work, a larger charge would have to be in place. Larger charge = more kick. More kick = it has kickback.

A little video to clarify my thoughts about the ever-changing weapon balance :

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/play_uk.php?id=873907

Spas needs a total rework, its to good in some situations and hopeless in others. Example : As was allready mentioned when you have people chasing you down if you have the flag they almost get stopped instantly from a page away. Impossible to catch a flagger wielding the Spas 12. The fact that it does almost the same damage from a whole page away is Overpowered. As it was ALSO mentioned spas is extremely good in defense mode, i'll give another example.

Jetting around the threshold over on the blue side of kampf, with an onslaught of players trying to get through there, they get hit once and are basically dead, although this isn't really the weapons overpoweredness just the map threshold, but my point is that it's extremley hard to attack a spas user from dead on. *rushing at a spas with deagles/mp5* if he lands one shot you're screwed.
I dont think the weapon is drastically overpowered jsut in certain areas.

But like was also mentioned you cant kill [CENSORED] if they are retreating or even jetting to high above you etc, although this comes with the gun traits. In any case it needs some sort of rework because the current allround-balance of it isn't working in my opinion.

As for the total balance, i'm pretty confident that the autos are a perfect balance the semis are more or less so and the one hitters are fine cept for the obvious m79. Socom is slightly op but other than that i cant see a reason to drastically change the game, we have a firm balance at the moment and shouldn't change anything to drastically or add any new 'improvements'.

No, spas is good. That's how it should be: good in some situations, crap in others.

And it takes pratice to hit someone from a screen away while retreating with spas.

Dont mess with the minimi. If it is made into a low damage-high spray weapon like the steyr, it would suck and be too much like the steyr or mp5.

a spas with no stoping power and same stats would suck balls, if thats what you're saying Gameover unless you're talking about the spas user being kicked back, and then i would agree to a point. I think the user should be kicked back some but maybe a little less than now.

But honestly i like the spas the way it is so i don't think too much tinkering would be a good thing

 Quote:Originally posted by RoosterThe fact that it does almost the same damage from a whole page away is Overpowered.


That's not really possible...due to the spread of the bullets, combined with the loss of speed over that distance, you only deal a fraction of the total damage at long range.

I personnally like the spas with more time in between shots.

k i downloaded this and used it last night and i must say it's quite sexy...now fix the bugs ;D

I... am sick... to death... of having to adjust to new weapons... each... f*cking... version.


MAKE IT STOP. For F*cks Sake.

1.3.1 has decent weapon balance as it is!!!!!!!

the only stupid weapon in it is the minigun! ALL of the others are FINE. Well, I personaly have trouble finding a real use for the deagles, despite being upgraded since last version... they're good in DM, but ctf is too fast paced for them.
And the M79 is too powerful, as has been said, by the time you have avoided their shot and have gone into a range where you can actually do damage to the user, they've already reloaded and have an easy kill most of the time. I 'spose the reload will fix that problem...

But the others truly are fine! I'm with pulp on this one.