I normally don't comment much on the weapons, but something I want to bring to attention... Mostly to address those complaining about ruger.

First, let's do some probability for ruger. HS = Head Shot | BS = Body Shot

HS + HS = kill
HS + BS = kill
BS + HS = kill
BS + BS + BS = kill
BS + BS + HS = kill

60% chance you're going to get a 2 hit kill with ruger. (Leaving out the fact that the head is a SMALLER area)
40% chance you're going to get a 3 hit kill with ruger.

Now all of this is based off of 100% accuracy. Sure, ruger may have a good chance of taking someone 1v1, but 1v2 is a different story. Right now I think it's relatively balanced. Rugers can hold their own, but aren't actually 'dominating' top. Sometimes it may seem this way because of support fire from automatics.

Now if ruger damage were decreased until 3 hit kills only... The results wouldn't be good.. Rugers would not only need consistant help with handling just TWO people, but ONE as well. Even with 100% acurracy, you will not be able to defend flag against two people unless you're extremely lucky with nades/secondaries.

If you absolutely need to balance this weapon.. Do not [CENSORED] around with the damage. You will seriously cripple this weapon. Maybe add some more bink or even add more reload, do not touch the damage. Some people may argue this weapon is noob friendly. In pubs YES, these weapons are noob friendly. Mainly because you can pick off idiots running around randomly. BUT try the same [CENSORED] in clanwars. It's a whole different story.

Now I have a suggestion.

Why not look at deagles? Right now I think they are probably one of the most ignored semis. Why not try and balance that up a bit, so ruger has more competition. Let's stop focusing on making weapons [CENSORED]tier so people use them less and start focusing on making the weapons nobody uses better. People should be able to confidently choose a weapon they like the feel of, not struggle to find a weapon they kill the most with.

Being a rugerist myself, it feels good to read a post like this.

Do not worry, ruger and desert eagle's damage have both been calculated carefully back in the day, so I can safely say that those won't get changed. However the solution you mentioned, tuning up desert eagles ( and spas ) so ruger has more competition is interesting. Mainly because I have no clue how to weaken the ruger without making it more unusable than a blind man's white cane.

So, how do we tune up deserts? And spas? I'm open for ideas here.

Probability Simulations are hilarious. Keep up the good work, Rugertards.



AAAANNNYYYYWWWWAAAYYYY...

I used to Ruger myself in 1.2.1, and I know how it feels to have a favorite gun and want to just shoot Ruger all day long. But you have to realize, Ruger's not the best out there. It's still one of the top guns you can equip yourself with, but it's not the best. If MY probability senses are correct, making Ruger an always 3 shot/4 shot kill gun will balance out play, that is if Rugertards become as accurate as Barret noobs.

edit: don't you spas? o.O

I play ruger for 1 and a half years now, and I totally agree Peemonkey! If you think Ruger needs to be changed (cuz its to strong or something) dont change the damage! Its a big risk, you could and probably will ruin this weapon!

And I also agree with the idea to tune other weapons which are not that "easy" to ruin, that would be a good solution...but a solution for what?
In my opinion the situation of the balance (especially the non-automatics) is quite ok. I know, people are using Spas, Deagles, Ruger very often and no weapon is too bad that players dont choose it.

Just leave it, its ok!

"Ruin" the Ruger. I love that phrase. Yeah, we "ruined" Barret in 1.3.1, but you see people getting craploads of kills with it.

I never said Barret was ruined so I dont get what you are trying to tell me?
I just know if Michal changes the power of Ruger, no one will use this weapons...a weapon with 4 shots and you need 3 to kill.thats just useless

In my opinion ruger doesnt need to be weakened or strengthened. I hear people say 'omg everyone uses ruger' but I have yet to see many people who are actually good with it. Its hard enough as it is right now. I think some people don't like the ruger because the few people that are good with it kick their asses with it.. its a matter of skill here. If a skilled person with a ruger kills you you automatically think ruger is the problem? Theres a fine line between the guns strength and the skill of the player.. I personally think ruger is balanced.

 Quote:Originally posted by JellyProbability Simulations are hilarious. Keep up the good work, Rugertards.
Thank you.

 Quote:Originally posted by Jelly
AAAANNNYYYYWWWWAAAYYYY...

I used to Ruger myself in 1.2.1, and I know how it feels to have a favorite gun and want to just shoot Ruger all day long. But you have to realize, Ruger's not the best out there. It's still one of the top guns you can equip yourself with, but it's not the best. If MY probability senses are correct, making Ruger an always 3 shot/4 shot kill gun will balance out play, that is if Rugertards become as accurate as Barret noobs.

edit: don't you spas? o.O

My contradiction senses are tingling.

So Ruger's not the best, but let's nerf it anyways! Brilliant logic Jelly, I like the way you think. Barret's not the best, but it still owns me, let's nerf that too! Minime isn't the best, but damn, on viet it seems to kill me often. Better put that on my nerf list.

On a serious note,

What I suggest is to give deagle advantages where ruger has disadvantages. But also keep the advantages ruger has on deagles. That way the weapons cancel eachother out and appeal to whatever people want in a semi. Range and power versus speed and clip.

The purpose of the balance is to have all weapons cancel eachother out, but in different areas. That way people can find what they like best about a weapon, rather than frantically search for the dominant one.

Well, I agree with that idea. Make Deagles pick up where Ruger can't handle, and make Ruge pick up where Deagles can't handle, just like 1.3 Deagles and 1.2.1 Ruger. That's what you're saying, right?


And your assumption of my logic is flawed.

You guys arent looking at what people are actually saying. I have yet to see anyone who has said "Ruger is overpowered nerf nerf nerf". What most people are saying is that if the autos reload is increased like in the beta weapons.ini, THEN RUGER WILL NEED TO BE NERFED, otherwise it will BECOME Overpowered.

KEY WORD = BECOME. NOBODY IS SAYING IT IS OVERPOWERED IN THIS VERSION.

lol.

Deagles msot ignored semi? No. They are currently the 4th most used weapon in clanwars. After ak, ruger, and m79...

If you want to look at ignored weapons, look at minigun.

Btw crazymonkey, I absolutely disagree that ruger is noob freindly. Ruger becomes very good with experience and practice though.

 Quote:Originally posted by JellyWell, I agree with that idea. Make Deagles pick up where Ruger can't handle, and make Ruge pick up where Deagles can't handle, just like 1.3 Deagles and 1.2.1 Ruger. That's what you're saying, right?


And your assumption of my logic is flawed.


Um, your 'logic' was the fact that you said ruger isnt the best, but you wanted to nerf it anyway. Therefore your own logic is flawed

Don't you hate when people try to end arguments with phrases that contradict themselves, just to sound smart? oshi-

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopWhat most people are saying is that if the autos reload is increased like in the beta weapons.ini, THEN RUGER WILL NEED TO BE NERFED, otherwise it will BECOME Overpowered.
What I think the problem is, people are getting angry before the next version is even released. They're looking in the future, instead of taking it gradually. Let's stop doing "IF" statments and start making changes right now. Increase reload for autos. There's other ways to balance out the ruger other than nerfing.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopDeagles msot ignored semi? No. They are currently the 4th most used weapon in clanwars. After ak, ruger, and m79...
I have honestly seen more spas than deagles.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopBtw crazymonkey, I absolutely disagree that ruger is noob freindly. Ruger becomes very good with experience and practice though.


I said in publics it was noob friendly. And I am basing that argument off of what I usually hear. I absolutely do not think the ruger is noob friendly in general.

 Quote:Originally posted by crazymonkey Quote:Originally posted by PoopWhat most people are saying is that if the autos reload is increased like in the beta weapons.ini, THEN RUGER WILL NEED TO BE NERFED, otherwise it will BECOME Overpowered.
What I think the problem is, people are getting angry before the next version is even released. They're looking in the future, instead of taking it gradually. Let's stop doing "IF" statments and start making changes right now. Increase reload for autos. There's other ways to balance out the ruger other than nerfing.

First of all, nobody is getting angry. Now, I dont quite understand your logic. Are you saying we should just weaken autos, leave ruger as it is, and if it becomes overpowered we will take care of it the next version? lol... What other ways are there to balance out ruger without nerfing?

Currently: Very good balance between all weapons. m79 a bit too strong in publics, autos a bit too strong when spraying.
Option 1: Increase reload of autos. This weakens autos not only in the spray department, but in other departments as well. Increase reload on m79. No change to ruger? Ruger becomes overpowered
Option 2: Increase reload of autos to null spray. Increase reload of m79 to weaken them in publics. Weaken ruger some way, then you keep the balance, weaken spray which is the goal. Weaken m79 which is another goal.

I like option 2

 Quote:
 Quote:Originally posted by PoopDeagles msot ignored semi? No. They are currently the 4th most used weapon in clanwars. After ak, ruger, and m79...
I have honestly seen more spas than deagles.


My logs show that spas is the 3rd least used weapon. The only weapons which are used less are minigun and minime. Deagles is the fourth most used. And this is primarily clanwars.

I'm just saying if you absolutely have to weaken the ruger, do not touch damage. Make the fire interval slower. Most vets take their time with ruger anyways, and this would make the weapon less noob friendly than it already is.

Actually ill agree with you on that. I think ruger should be a 2-hit kill most of the time. But generally speaking, even if you cant kill with 2 shots, most rugers use socom as secondary, and 1 shot from socom would kill someone who didnt die from 2 ruger shots :Q.

The ruger's perfect but, I think the deagles could really use boost, I don't see them that often. Maybe more speed? I'm not sure about screwing with the damage.

In the current version I think the ruger is well balanced, the added delay since 1.3 makes it so much slower that U can kill them with autos, etc. The only thing I dislike about the Ruger is the random stray shots, it needs more of the 'loose dammage when flying far' thingie (anti spray).

BUT, compared to other semis the ruger is a tad overpowerd imo, so boostiong DE's and perhaps spas a bit prolly wouldnt be that bad of an idea.

I concur, if someone actually goes through the time and trouble of actually aiming their weapon then they should be rewarded appropriately.

But the reload time is really ridiculous.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopActually ill agree with you on that. I think ruger should be a 2-hit kill most of the time. But generally speaking, even if you cant kill with 2 shots, most rugers use socom as secondary, and 1 shot from socom would kill someone who didnt die from 2 ruger shots :Q.

Secondaries are universal. So I leave them out of the picture when it comes to balance, unless we're looking at them individually.

 Quote:Originally posted by Dark_NoddyIn the current version I think the ruger is well balanced, the added delay since 1.3 makes it so much slower that U can kill them with autos, etc. The only thing I dislike about the Ruger is the random stray shots, it needs more of the 'loose dammage when flying far' thingie (anti spray).

One thing I suggest to counter that is to make the fire interval slower. Then noobs can't just rapid fire down b2b and laos, and are forced to take their time with each shot.

I think the Pro-Rugerists believe that making autos weak and hopeless is the way to go.

Oh yeah, I tried out Deagles today. Not to shabby, and it kills in three hits.

Yes Jelly, I want all the autos to be weak and hopeless so ruger gets nerfed. That's exactly why I made this topic!

I think everything is fine. Add in poop's anti-spray idea instead of the long reloads and leave everything else as it is. The way we're going, we're just making guns weaker, than weakening other guns to compensate, and that's bad in the long run. If we keep going this way, in a few versions it will take so long to kill anybody the game will be boring.

I'm a decent average rugertard. I miss/hit half my shots.

All I know is, I can take on anyone and love the weapon for it's handy range, but when a guy knows how to use an auto and make all his shots count, or when a smart spasser or DE-user (Kazuki comes to mind) gets in range, i'm toast.


Fun fact: the end of 1.3 was rushed a little bit, as a few of our wanted tweaks and 'settling in' time with the balance during beta was cut short when Michal was gonna go on holiday and wanted to get the game out before hand. We had agreed on the final adjustments of the ruger that I had a part in - and liked it quite alot - but Michal reverted it to an earlier balance we tested that features the ruger we have now in 1.3.1.

As I recall, it had the same firing rate and damage as in 1.2.1, ie fireinterval of around 32-33, and damage of 252ish. The difference was that the bink, previously 15 (0 right now), was 45 (same as m79 now). It was balanced, and made it similar to the barret. Ie: dominates until shot and sprayed upon.
In hind-sight though, it may have made it too versatile a close-up weapon [as bink means less the closer you are], thus putting it on too equal a par with the DE's.

The 1.3.1 ruger is fine dont mess up a weapon thats already balanced. The power rateings on all weapons are fine imo.

In that case, Realistic and Normal should be divided.

Realistic should have its own weapons.ini imo then again if there were any REAL dedicated R/S players theyd form some kind of governing body or league where theyd have their own council and everyone would discuss a balance then implement that official balance in a WM R/S server.

Gameover, I don't see that happening in any NORMAL MODE servers.


Besides, 1.0c knife speed has already been inputted in a popular alternative game mode in r/s called DODGEKNIFE.



btw we need more r/s servers.

Why would it happen in real mode server we have the original balance and governing bodys for leagues, RS doesnt have jack really.. SCTFL just picked it up so well see I guess.. RS mode isnt that popular id say well under 10% play it.

About 30-60 people play r/s... most of the time servers are jam-packed. Unpopular? Please.


edit: btw, there's someone I know who's a clown in R/S, but plays norm seriously... alter ego... He posts a lot here too, not to spoil his alter ego.

30-60 is alot..?

And maybe the servers are jam-packed because there isn't many of them?

There's about 100-300 people playing per time when you check the lobby. And you have to account for different people that play at different times.

Wait, what are we talking about here. 30-60 overall or 30-60 at one time. :/

10-30 at once, 30-60 all time.

10-30 to 100-300

Sounds like 10% to me. So I guess you just confirmed Gameover's satement. Unless you were agreeing with him?

Either way I don't care much for realistic. I might've if I joined the league for it in sctfl but it looked pretty boring.

Perhaps you could:

A.) Make it have more speed, around 10 or 20 more, but 30-60 less damage, The speed would compensate by extending the range by a little, and making it a little easier to aim, but the damage would make it slightly harder to kill people with.

B.) Remove some speed, 10-20, and add damage, 30-60, Oneshot kill to head, two o body, but less range.

C.) Shadup and leave it.

C would be the best possible choice here. B would actually make it overpowered, even with the decreased speed.

A. and... more speed? Less firing intervals.

Just add some bink, :N

It dont need bink or anything it already had bink and gets binked easly, enough to miss an important shot easyly. Its already a slugish and hard weapon to use and your talkin about decreasing its already too slow fire interval. You really dont have any clue what you talkin about. Jelly go sit in the corner now and plz dont come out of it until next version comes out, kthxbye.

Gameover they're only talking hypothetically here. They would only add bink if autos were weakened.

So this entire discussion is hypothetical then?

Unless something happens to the autos there's no need to do anything to the ruger.

About the long-distance "spray" with the ruger. I can see where you're going with it but I just absolutely love doing it. I don't mean actual spraying but seeing someone who's bleeding going off the screen and then using their speed and direction to find out where they will be in say 2 seconds, and then you blow off their head from a screen and a half away, it's great.

If I wouldn't be able to do that anymore it would suck.

The main focus is nothing needs to be done to ruger right NOW, but if something needs to be done in the future do not touch damage.

I guess the bink can only be felt in norm, because only in norm is there "bink" in Ruger. In Realistic, Ruger has NO bink at all. And Barret bink carries over to your secondary.... bug?

Why can't we just stop [CENSORED]ing with it?

I think both Ruger and Deagles are balanced well enough, if not perfect. All you need to do is weaken auto spray, and all is good. I dont think m79 is as big of a problem as everyone is making it out to be. Maybe a SMALL delay.... Oh and definetely weaken nades. Then we good...

Actually, now that I think about this... this balance is almost perfect, just besides the overly powerful m79 and the weak minigun (which I guess they're gonna ignore again).

Really.... I see nearly an equal amount of every weapon, especially in servers that block m79. Of course there are more autos than semis, because there are 6 autos and 2 semis. So, really, if the balance is made equal between all weapons, there should be three times as many autos. That is skewed though, because choosing a semi over an auto gives a much different kind of playing style, so the figure is more around 50 / 50.

Or, do we want a balanced use of weapon class?
I'd rather have the latter, that way you aren't hit by lots of spray, accidental or purposeful.

Being a regular realistic player, the damage is even as it is balanced out with its huge recoil and small amount to bullets. Leave the damage alone! It is good as it is.

Looking mainly at the first post, and stating that I play in realistic.

The deagles are my best (primary) weapons. The reason I love deagles so much is the fact that you can't just pick them up and "pwn" for a whole round with no experience. But, you can get better with them and they can be a very tactical and brute weapon.

The ruger on the other hand. I hate to say it, but people noobs can just pick up rugers and kill with a scary-high success rate. If I'm using an auto, and I meet someone with a ruger, they have not only an advantage, but an ace. A headshot.

It frankly pisses me off too fight rugers because there's not much you can do unless their aim is off. Not unless you fight with a drawn out guerilla warfare style.

-----

Basically, I think rugers are overpowered, and through experimenting, it's extremely hard to weaken them fairly.

But, I do not think bringing up weapons like the deagles is the answer.



PS Ruger headshots are lethal in realistic.

well realistic has been talked about already, most agree it should have its own .ini but the ruger is nothing like it is in realistic.

 Quote:[i]I hate to say it, but people noobs can just pick up rugers and kill with a scary-high success rate.


I have to disagree with you here. I have never seen someone new to ruger who is good with it. Hell, some people consider me very good with it but I constantly have problems aiming and winning in certain situations. It definently isnt a noob gun.

If your talking about real mode, I agree with you, its like a barret with 4 shots.

A barret with 4 shots indeed. Except in real mode it'll only take your health down 4/5ths with legs and sometimes body shots. Not to mention an extreme recoil that, if you miss with your first shot, you gotta re-aim from scratch all over again. Not just adjust your aim from what it was previously.

Ruger is powerful in realmode, but more than enough times i've seen it dominated by good auto users, and 'stormers' using other semi-autos.


...anyhow, if you want to talk about ruger in real mode, maybe someone should make a thread about the RM version.

Despite the fact I am not a regular ruger user I'll say this: The ruger is fine. The two shot scenario happens a lot less than the three shot due to the fact that the head is a lot harder for people to hit than the body. And I'll concur with Mancer on the fact that the Ruger is not a noob gun, to use it well you must have fairly decent aim. Noobs who can't aim are much better served by M79's or HK's.

On the topic of the deagles, when a good player is using them they can be absolutely brutal, in some ways more than the ruger; the deagles have a 7 round clip. If the deagle was buffed though I would vote for having the bullet-speed increased.

So, I just went and posted this in the suggestions forum, but here it is:

Make a separate weapons.ini for Real and Non-Real mode. Whether or not Rugers are cheap in non-real I don't know, but in Real they are more often than not a one-hit kill. In fact, people call me a mini-noob, but random mini spray has like a 1% chance of killing someone, whereas random Ruger spraying is actually a plausible game plan.

Again, make a weapons_real.ini file, and simply stick in some code saying

if(mode==real)loadini("weapons_real.ini");
else loadini("weapons.ini");

Or whatever. This could also be used to boost minigun power in real (because we can't just point and shoot, we have to deal with bink!), maybe nerf the spas a TINY bit (it's possible to 1-hit kill from across the screen), etc. Otherwise the game will never be balanced in Real mode, because testing is (I think) usually based off of non-real mode. Even if it isn't, IT'S A DAMN GOOD IDEA! >:'(

In Australian clan wars, the only weapon I see used less than the deagles is the minigun; and it's still close even then.

I think the damage is really good on them, but they should fire ever so slightly faster, that'd give them a much needed boost.

If the reason why you people think that increasing the reload time for autos is for reducing spray; and something is going to counteract spray next version, I'm more for poop's idea of just increasing the effect of the reduced damage system after the bullet leaves the screen distance. There have been a couple of times when I think it's been a bit unfair that I've lost half my health from completely random spray, though I don't have a major problem with it by any means...
Seriously, the reload time should not be messed with imo: it sets them apart from the other weapons; and I think keeping the weapons as unique as possible is a good plan, rather than making them all more similar in the name of "balance".

I'd also like to point out that I have a major problem with the reduced firing rate of the autos I saw in the experimental "balance" settings. It seems incredibly wrong and useless. Refer to the above statement of making things too similar.