First of all, anyone who is going to come here and bull[CENSORED] about this is a game and not real life.. dont even post. The realism factor is only 1 reason why im making this suggestion.

How to make nades require skill?

The answer is as follow: Nades will have a timer, 2 seconds? or 2.5 seconds, the point is not how much time, its the time. After that much amount of time, they will explode.

They will not explode on contact with another soldat in mid-air, but will only explode when the timer runs out. They will still explode in contact with boxes and stuff though..

[edit]btw, I just thought about something else. It might be a bit complicated but meh. When you want to throw a nade, first you have to click the nade button, which will start the timer, after that you can throw it at anytime before the timer runs out with the nade in your hand, if it runs out then obviously you will suicide.. and it would be cool if you can actually see the time until the nade will explode on top of the nade in very small numbers...

The reason im suggesting this is so you can still actually get kills short range with nade, but you need to actually be good to get them.

#1 = This is more realistic
#2 = This will take away the 1% health nade spammers who can get doulbe kills
#3 = Nades require alot more skill than currently
#4 = Poop's ideas are always good.

Funny how we weakened the game so much that even nades seem overpowered now.

I do agree that this is more realistic and all but I'd only agree to this suggestion if the nades got strengthened alot. If not then nades will only be used to throw at enemy's bases because they're useless in mid-air.

For example , add fragments to a nade , something like the spas-bullets but much more powerful and more bullets. So then you'd have two hurting factors: The fragments and the blast.

Grtz , DePhille

mm maybe along with making nades like this, make the damage radius of nades a bit higher so it wont be horribly hard or something. I dont like the fragments because it just about luck again if theres fragments. Blast radius can be made higher in combination with this idea.

The problem with nades right now is 3 things:
1. People with very little health can get alot of kills with nades
2. I can go into a server and have the highest score, highest caps etc without using a weapon.. just nades
3. The spawnkill factor, in alot of maps is because you bounce the nades off a polygon and then they go into thier base, which would be killed if nades explode when they hit a polygon.

Well the way I see it then is leave the nades as they are and power up the other weapons so you don't have the chance to run back or assault using nades only.

Really , nades were weakened over the last x versions. Though other weapons got weakened even harder. I think this is one of the most easy-to-see examples of the weakness of Soldat weapons at this very moment. Same for M79, M79 was also weakened during the last x versions , but again not as hard as the other weapons.

Please don't weaken the nades (you can change them as long as they have the same overall impact) because we're already having very weak weapons in my opinion. (That's one reason why some people leave Soldat at this very moment, I got my sources)

Grtz , DePhille

I think nades have a varied timer, I've seen them explode exactly at 2, 2.5, and 3 seconds.

I totally agree with this idea.

how about they have the timer, and the only way they would explode early is if they hit a soldat hard enough.

by the way, nades should bounce off colliders.

I hate this idea. I want to throw a nade and have someone blow up in mid air instantly.

I love the idea, maybe id think differently if my nades actually did something in air.

Fix register bug or this idea? Id say fix register bug 1st.. if you cant make it somewhat fair for everyone to use then implement the idea. FAR TOO MANY people rely on nades. I tried to come up with a % for a day of all the games I played and all the nades that made contact and only 10% killed.

I don't really like this idea...perhaps it's because I get the majority of my kills through nades =/ I'm afraid changing the nades so that they have timers would change soldat too much.

I think it would be easier to just change max nades to 2 instead of 4 for league matches and what not and then you won't get nade spam double kills because it makes nades more valuable, you can't just spam them somewhere and hope someone dies, you actually have to throw it at someone. Or make it so that nades only take away 50% health.

Although I like learning curves on some things, I think putting such a steep learning curve on the nade would be a bad idea.

I like the no explode in air thing, but I also think nades being able to actually bounce off of soldats in the air would be pretty damn cool. I like the timer idea, but I want to still be able to roll my nades. I also think the ground exploding nades would be a bad idea, because it would open up a whole new level of speed with the ability to boost yourself at any given poly.

 Quote:Originally posted by crazymonkey I also think the ground exploding nades would be a bad idea, because it would open up a whole new level of speed with the ability to boost yourself at any given poly.


Ah good point. I hadnt thought about that. WEll just take off the idea about exploding on contact with a poly.

btw, I just thought about something else. It might be a bit complicated but meh. When you want to throw a nade, first you have to click the nade button, which will start the timer, after that you can throw it at anytime before the timer runs out with the nade in your hand, if it runs out then obviously you will suicide.. and it would be cool if you can actually see the time until the nade will explode on top of the nade in very small numbers...

The reason im suggesting this is so you can still actually get kills short range with nade, but you need to actually be good to get them.

 Quote:Originally posted by Poop#4 = Poop's ideas are always good.


I'd just like to add that this was my idea and suggestion, but Poop decided to post it here.

Nades are extremely overpowered and something should be done.

well how about holding down the nade key to start the timer (just like it is now, exept you have to release when u want the nade to be thrown or it explodes in your hand)

The way to fix nades would be to fix nade spamming.. by adding a nade throwing interval. Not timing when they explode.

But that would still allow people to do all those cheap mid air nades that kill in one hit. It's cheap. I do it all the time.

Australian servers don't have a problem with nade spamming at all, really. Max 3 nades; and everything works out fine. Sure some people try and get all 3 out as quickly as possible, but it usually never works anyway.

I don't want to make such a simple weapon to use the most compicated by far, and I'm happy with nades atm anyway.

Therefor I am heavily against such a proposal.

I agree with Gameover's comment.
Let's first fix the non-registering bug and see how nades will work then.
Most of you will think that it will even make the nade stronger but this is not so.
I've already explained how Soldat's anti-lag causes the hitmodel around the enemy to be bigger , and thus it makes the nade hit when it actually missed.

Also , setting the nade maximum to two nades should really fix all these problems with nades being "overpowered". I really think that there's enough 'modability' to avoid this issue , it's mostly up to the server.

Grtz , DePhille

I ain't read this thread 'cept for the first post.

I'd like to remind you all that, in balance discussion, please try to only brew ideas that can be accomplished with editing the weapons.ini file. Giving grenades a 'timer' is something that Michal himself would have to implement.

The task of doing balance ourselves pre-emptive to it's release is to ensure that the next version of Soldat is primarily focused towards bug-fixing. Thus, we gotta do it ourselves with the weapons.ini .

this is stupid, lame and even lamer, seriously what the f*ck are you doing, how boring do you want soldat to become? pretty soon this game will become completely unplayable because of the amounts of nerfs it gets, "hey amghad we nerfed all the other weapons, lets nerf the grenades too!"

I see NO PROBLEMS with the grenades, they are NOT overpowered >:[


 Quote:1. People with very little health can get alot of kills with nades
THAT is what I would call skill, not waiting for somone to go over your grenade and hoping your grenade explodes.

 Quote:2. I can go into a server and have the highest score, highest caps etc without using a weapon.. just nades
uh.. prove it? record a demo and from the instant you join, show the scoreboard and then go on your nade rampage and we'll see the results in the end, and also say what server, oh and ctf please, btw caps dont count, I wanna see you have the highest kills with just nades.


 Quote:
3. The spawnkill factor, in alot of maps is because you bounce the nades off a polygon and then they go into thier base, which would be killed if nades explode when they hit a polygon.
its not counted as spawn killing after you lose the invincibility effect a short while after spawning, mainly because you would've already gotten to a safe position to kick somones ass

leave nades alone, they are just perfert and so funny :o

err, nades are fine... and mancer, there's no interval needed, just set max nades to 2 and see what happends.

m00 I smell a challenge, you will have your demo tommorow.

Mar77a, I would love to do that, however alot of people are opposed to changing settings you can change. So we need a change in the game itself. Its unfortunate people are resistant to change. They think.. "Hey 1 less nade will hurt me", they fail to realize that 1 less nade will hurt everyone equally.

 Quote:its not counted as spawn killing after you lose the invincibility effect a short while after spawning, mainly because you would've already gotten to a safe position to kick somones ass

Haha... have you ever played voland or laos?

 Quote:Originally posted by Poopm00 I smell a challenge, you will have your demo tommorow.

its the 31st today, you posted that on the 26th, no demo? I guess you lose then

 Quote:
Haha... have you ever played voland or laos?


yes as a matter of fact I have played both, and you know what? nerfing a weapon because of 1 or 2 maps is absurd, its a fault in the map, how about you come up with a fix for the map then and send it to Michal? (btw I see no big ass deal, I mean how many times do you get spawn killed in that map? once or twice?) Completely changing the playing style of the game because of spawn kill is retarded, there are MANY other ways to fix this problem, and ANYWAY, how is adding a timer on the grenade going to solve the spawn kill problem? people can still spam them cant they? and what happens when the timer runs out and somone spawns? they get killed dont they?

 Quote:its the 31st today, you posted that on the 26th, no demo? I guess you lose then

Just forgot to upload them, heres a couple of games I played the day after. Now I think I did well enough using only nades, consider if I had a weapon with this, the results would be magnified, just to show nades can hold thier own if you use only them. I hope you watch these. Also consider the 25 times I hit but the enemy got weakened to 1% health but didnt die, with any sort of weapon 1 more shot would have killed.
http://se.llsc.us/uploader/files/1/nades.rar

 Quote:yes as a matter of fact I have played both, and you know what? nerfing a weapon because of 1 or 2 maps is absurd, its a fault in the map, how about you come up with a fix for the map then and send it to Michal? (btw I see no big ass deal, I mean how many times do you get spawn killed in that map? once or twice?) Completely changing the playing style of the game because of spawn kill is retarded, there are MANY other ways to fix this problem, and ANYWAY, how is adding a timer on the grenade going to solve the spawn kill problem? people can still spam them cant they? and what happens when the timer runs out and somone spawns? they get killed dont they?

If you notice that this reply was to your reply that its not spawnkilling when you lose the invincibility effect. Need I remind you that spawnkilling is not the only reason to weaken grenades. I posted the reasons in my previous posts I believe, you can go check them out, dont feel like repeating. Like ive posted before, spawnkilling and grenade spamming relies on hitting people in the air, when nades dont explode on contact in the air, that is weakened. Also 1 or 2 times... not even close. Generally in clanwars you will get spawnkilled atleast 8-10 times per round.

I tried fiddling around with nades by editing the .ini, but the results weren't very pleasing. I suggest you seduce ladder and cup admins to lower max nade amounts ( if SCTFL would, maybe TNL would follow ). I'd help with ze seducing ;p

Actually spawnkilling in clanwars is pretty much frowned upon unless the flagger is there in wars. Getting spawn killed 8-10 times per round is rather a bit of a stretch don't you think? I'd be thinking it'd usually be between 0-3, tops, depending on the map.


Edit:
Oh and I downloaded your demos to see how you fared. You certainly proved that nades can't be used as a substitute for a primary weapon, especially in the second one in which you gave up using nades and going with the MP5.

It was also funny how you sprayed with it; even though you say spraying is something that should be removed from the game. Would've thought you'd give it a pass on principle alone, but no...

Demo1: You played utter noobs in a public server, and you were hardly ever even attacked in it. Ratio wasn't fantastic.

Demo2: Despite your opposition not being great, your nades failed to prove a decent weapon of choice. I think your score was 7-15 when you gave up on them?


I just think 4 nades may be a bit much, and that's all your problem with 'em right there. Reduce it to 3 in a server for just a try, see how it goes.

I totally disagree to add timer to nades! It would ruin them completely.

The nades are fine and it REQUIRES skill to throw them at your enemy with precision. I don't even see why you are so upset about nades... is it because you get killed a lot with them? What's wrong with that? Why don't you do that to your enemies?

I know this is just a game, and for the same reason, I don't see why you talk about it that way.

Raptor's answers are always good.

i agree with poop. and i even think that the nades should only explode when the timer runs out and not when they hit a box.

and i also hate it when granades are bouncing as if they were balls. if they bounced less, you could be able to aim better with them.

^That's not a problem with the nades, but with the maps. If you stand your soldier on a very straight polygon, you won't be able to see it's feet.

Like I said on the fractured forums Poop, I'm pretty sure that adding a timer to the grenade explosion itself wouldn't really be such a great thing to do, but if the interval between throws was increased I would like it a lot.

 Quote:
Need I remind you that spawnkilling is not the only reason to weaken grenades. I posted the reasons in my previous posts I believe, you can go check them out, dont feel like repeating. Like ive posted before, spawnkilling and grenade spamming relies on hitting people in the air, when nades dont explode on contact in the air, that is weakened. Also 1 or 2 times... not even close. Generally in clanwars you will get spawnkilled atleast 8-10 times per round.


Soldat is a unique side-view multiplayer action game. It takes the best from games like Liero, Worms, Quake and Counter-Strike and gives you fast action gameplay with tons of blood and flesh. Soldiers fight against each other on 2D battle arenas using a deadly military arsenal. This is what multiplayer was invented for.

Think about it poop, whats going to happen when you add the timer, think about how the game is going to change, this game is already destroyed because of all the start-up timers on weapons, this is slowly turning into worms

If you throw a grenade at such a distance, the grenade doesn't all the much speed. So a talented, experienced player can dodge your grenade from having it hit you upon contact. So then people throw multiple nades to try to catch their opponent in the nade's blast.

The most effect way to use a grenade is to make your opponent move where you want them to. I manipulate my opponent all the time with just how I throw a grenade. So then they move in a way where my primary weapon has an advantage at firing and being able to hit that person. I use grenades as a way to catch my opponent off-gaurd and to kill them that much easier. Throwing a grenade and then shooting your opponent at the same exact time the grenade hits that person gives almost an instant death. I can pull this off multiple times during a match. Thus showing you that grenades take skill, and I don't spam grenades (usually). I can go into a public server and play against any random players and if they just spam grenades at me I can dodge mostly everyone of their grenades.

Put a timer on a grenade, to me, will just make them nearly worthless and if you dind't want to get hit with a grenade, just stay off the ground. 3D games have timers on the grenades, but since in those games you can move in a full 3 Dimension enviroment, you can't just jump and fly out of that grenades path. So if Soldat played as a 3D game, then you could interact in a 3 Dimension playing field (since we have jets). The same concept works with how Soldat is just 2D. Since grenades usually always land of the ground before the explode, all a player has to do is fly over where that grenade is and they will be unharmed since the blast won't be able to touch them. So if I'm flying in the air and you hit me with a grenade it doesn't blow up, hits the ground and then nonetheless makes that grenade worthless. Then since you have now wasted approx. 1.5 seconds in trying to kill me with that grenade, I then can nearly, if not, kill you before you can even get a chance to act back.

The grenades currently have a timer on them. They explode after such a time once thrown, so just making that time less makes it worthless. This idea has more downfalls then benefits to the game. I'm really unsure what would make the game better in anyway. Well besides the fact that then people would then stop spamming grenades in the air as they attack you. Maybe increase the time between grenade throws, but that would be the only thing that would be beneficial in making Soldat better.

heh Person, I think I posted the wrong demo. But the reason I switched to mp5 was because we were losing and had to win the round, so yeah. Also do tou understand the meaning of spray? Look again and find one instance where I shot when nobody was on my screen. Spraying is not simply using autos.

http://se.llsc.us/uploader/files/1/demo2.sdm

Theres the demo I actually wanted to post. Yes I admit nades did not replace a weapon too well on the voland demo. Check that one though.
---------

Xenocide, yes yes dodge. Same thing the m79 users say for m79 eh? When you consider the reality of the situation in game, its not easy to dodge 4 nades coming at you. When I look at it a bit more, a nadepack is pretty much 4 m79 shots.

m00, nice evasion and change of subject, but anyways. Its funny how recently everyone bringing up these fast-paced [CENSORED] when all of them agree that soldat has become more fast paced than 1.1.5 and older versions. The fast action gameplay, im guessing was written in one of the older versions, are you telling me that those versions were more fast-paced than the version we are in now?

Anyways, I posted another suggestion a few days ago in fractured soldat, since alot of you dont agree with this one.

 Quote:Well theres another thing you can do, instead of a delay on the throw, make the fire interval between nades longer and also make it so when you want to throw a nade, you have to switch to "nades" first. Just like you switch to a secondary from a primary or from a primary to a secondary, this way when someone wants to throw a nade, they cannot be shooting a ak along with the nades. And then to shoot a primary or secondary again, they would have to switch back to them..

This is very realistic also, I cannot imagine someone throwing 4 nades and shooting a ak-74 simultaneously...

how did I change the subject? I was replying to you stating that you hate how grenades kill in mid air, and in my opinion, you ARE making the game slower and more BORING, mabe you dont realise that though, since all thats in your mind is 'skill', I think you seem to forget that soldat is supposed to be FUN

 Quote:Xenocide, yes yes dodge. Same thing the m79 users say for m79 eh? When you consider the reality of the situation in game, its not easy to dodge 4 nades coming at you. When I look at it a bit more, a nadepack is pretty much 4 m79 shots.

that is why people are suggesting a longer delay between throwing grenades.. HELLO?

No [CENSORED], and the game would be more fun if nades were a bit weaker or harder to use.

 Quote:that is why people are suggesting a longer delay between throwing grenades.. HELLO?

And exactly how would this change the fact that nades are 4 m79 shots? Instead of waiting .1 seconds you will have to wait what? .3 seconds? Maybe more? How does this change the fact that nades are 4 m79's? The only thing that would change with a longer fire interval is the ability to throw 4 nades very quickly, I dont see that as the only problem with grenades.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopXenocide, yes yes dodge. Same thing the m79 users say for m79 eh? When you consider the reality of the situation in game, its not easy to dodge 4 nades coming at you. When I look at it a bit more, a nadepack is pretty much 4 m79 shots.

m00, nice evasion and change of subject, but anyways. Its funny how recently everyone bringing up these fast-paced [CENSORED] when all of them agree that soldat has become more fast paced than 1.1.5 and older versions. The fast action gameplay, im guessing was written in one of the older versions, are you telling me that those versions were more fast-paced than the version we are in now?

Anyways, I posted another suggestion a few days ago in fractured soldat, since alot of you dont agree with this one.

 Quote:Well theres another thing you can do, instead of a delay on the throw, make the fire interval between nades longer and also make it so when you want to throw a nade, you have to switch to "nades" first. Just like you switch to a secondary from a primary or from a primary to a secondary, this way when someone wants to throw a nade, they cannot be shooting a ak along with the nades. And then to shoot a primary or secondary again, they would have to switch back to them..

This is very realistic also, I cannot imagine someone throwing 4 nades and shooting a ak-74 simultaneously...


Poop, I think you've lost what the significant usage grenades pose. Grenades aren't anything like the M79 grenade. They aren't as fast and don't have quite same attack. And when you said, "Same thing the m79 users say for m79 eh?" what are you meaning by this? I'm not an M79 user, and I don't see how using an M79 can be successfully used for dodging.

Adding a non-touch blowing up grenade and a shorter timer is such an iffy subject. Plus the main problem I'm seeing is that you still don't have a significant amount of support to back up why such an implament should be added. But, making the Grenades as a 3 type of weapon where you have to go through a list kind of seems to be a decent idea. The only issue I'm seeing is the problem when switching between the Primary, Secondary, and then Nades. A new layout of keys might make this better. 1-3 as then a way to quickly chose your weapon (Default Suggestion). I visit the Fractured Forums often, but I haven't got into that thread. I suppose out of the suggestions you've made, this seems like one of the best.

The implemation of grenades being only used if switched between the Primary and Secondary weapons. *Default Keys used for suggesting* So you can still use 'Q' to switch between weapons, or you can go between 1, 2, and 3 to chose what you want to use. If we can keep the fast paced movement in Soldat currently and then making Grenades how they are. Some interval, same power, and same startup time. The only thing I would suggest in making this part of the game would be to then increase the switch between weapons. Because since you have to change between weapons more often, it takes just that much longer to be able to react to your opponent. Now the issue is on how to throw a grenade. Throwing a grenade would still be through 'E' as default, only if you have Nades currently out. You could then be able to change it as needed, I recommend not making it the same key as 'F' because if you accidently didn't switch to the correct weapon then you drop/throw your weapon and then picking it back up making you have to reload it.

Thus this can make people either spam all their grenades at once (in attacking) or not use them at all. I see grenades as more of a tactical weapon then. Decreasing the amount still down to 3 in servers. Then, in my opinion, how to use grenades the most efficiently. Attack then with your grenade at first, throwing 1 grenade at them, and the immediately switching to your primary; by either hitting 'Q' or '1'. Then firing at them. But this tends to make grenades used less often, or spammed a lot more. This idea has a lot of flaws, but seems to be a suggestable idea for the future.

I'd like everyone to give ideas back in reply so we can maybe figure out a more full-proof plan in not drastically changing grenades, but making them more useful, and less spammed.

PS: Also, I understand that this can only be theorised since we can't specifically try this without it being implamented into the game itself. So just take the idea into thought and maybe after more consideration, making a new thread.

EDIT: haha, beat 'moo by 1 minute 9 seconds. :)

 Quote:And exactly how would this change the fact that nades are 4 m79 shots? Instead of waiting .1 seconds you will have to wait what? .3 seconds? Maybe more? How does this change the fact that nades are 4 m79's? The only thing that would change with a longer fire interval is the ability to throw 4 nades very quickly, I dont see that as the only problem with grenades.


you said you cant dodge 4 nades getting thrown at you at once

 Quote: its not easy to dodge 4 nades coming at you.

it is when they have a longer delay

 Quote:EDIT: haha, beat 'moo by 1 minute 9 seconds. :)

:p

 Quote:
Poop, I think you've lost what the significant usage grenades pose. Grenades aren't anything like the M79 grenade. They aren't as fast and don't have quite same attack. And when you said, "Same thing the m79 users say for m79 eh?" what are you meaning by this? I'm not an M79 user, and I don't see how using an M79 can be successfully used for dodging.

What I meant was that last version, when people were proposing adding a delay to m79, a good amount of m79 users kept saying "Just dodge it", these ideal simle solutions. Same thing a bit more recently when people want to reduce spray, "Its so easy to dodge the spray". Although I was against a m79 delay, I did not believe the solution was as simple as "Just dodge it". The point I was trying to make is that this ideal solution you give about how easy nades are to dodge is not realistic or practical In-game.

-----------

m00, I misunderstood what you meant, my bad. However quite frankly, I dont believe a longer fire interval would solve the problem. Because like I said before, nadespam is not hte only problem, I may be the only one. But when someone who wastes all thier bullets, is down to 1% health, and will die in 1 more shot throws a nade and kill sthe enemy, I find that retarded. I think throwing 1 nade only is too strong also. btw, I never said "at once".


I think a combo of increasing the fire interval and making grenades like in my last suggestion, so you have to switch to them would be a decent solution also.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopWhat I meant was that last version, when people were proposing adding a delay to m79, a good amount of m79 users kept saying "Just dodge it", these ideal simle solutions. Same thing a bit more recently when people want to reduce spray, "Its so easy to dodge the spray". Although I was against a m79 delay, I did not believe the solution was as simple as "Just dodge it". The point I was trying to make is that this ideal solution you give about how easy nades are to dodge is not realistic or practical In-game.


How I think it's practical is the fact that I can pull it off all day long. Because it's the fact that even if you play against someone new, you can still make them move and react in how you throw a grenade at them. And to be honest, if I know I can't hit that person with a grenade I will purposely miss them and aim where they move to a point i can hit them. It's just simple basics like that. But when someone says they can dodge M79 shots, I call bs and I would like them to prove it. You can't move quick enough to dodge those shots. Grenades have a startup time and have a slower speed which makes it that much more possible on how to dodge them. That's where I was getting my point from.

But on the subject put in more of a delay between grenade throws and adding them as a new weapon choice might make nades require more skill. I'd like to talk to you more privately on this subject to figure out what all benefits and disadvantages such an implament might have in the next version. I'd rather take a respectable approach at this instead of just disagreeing with whatever someone else said in response. That doesn't help out in finding a solution and can just make the discussion turn into flaming and pointless arguing.

 Quote:Originally posted by Poop
And exactly how would this change the fact that nades are 4 m79 shots? Instead of waiting .1 seconds you will have to wait what? .3 seconds? Maybe more? How does this change the fact that nades are 4 m79's? The only thing that would change with a longer fire interval is the ability to throw 4 nades very quickly, I dont see that as the only problem with grenades.


Quite true, but what if the delay were a second, or 1.5 seconds? I think that might do the trick.

I really cbf going and taking a screenshot of the moment where you stood just past the end of the bridge and sprayed MP5 bullets towards the red flag while there was absolutely nobody else on the screen.

And this "dodging" comment is something pretty void of substance. Most people are hardly accurate enough to use them at a point where you even need to dodge; plus you can predict where they are going to throw them also, due to the throwing animation. 'nades are also slower than M79 projectiles, nor do they kill in a single blast most of the time. Dodging isn't that hard unless you're travelling with too much or (too little, if in the air) momentum.

I don't even think a longer delay between throw times is necessary. When more than 5% of the community thinks that nades are overpowered as much as you do, maybe. But for now, you'd be ruining perfectly fine nades for other communities who aren't having problems with them (ie: they have max 3 per server).

And to be honest, I don't know where your hate for nades could be coming from. Is this in actual clan wars? Or public servers?


eh didn't read xeno's post 'til just now, I pretty much copied what he said about dodging without realising it.
And I'll edit my post when I view that 3rd demo.

edit:
Yeah, I wasn't amazed. You got a lot of lag kills, a few 4th nade kills, and was from the same war against that shoddy clan (no offense if any of you guys are readers here).

I read most of your posts above, but I'll keep my reply as short as possible.

Grenades are the strongest weapons in the game. In your base, you get 4 instant-killing projectiles with zero reload. Same in the enemy base. You only have to spare them in the way between.

Grenades are massly effective: since if they hit the enemy's feet, or hit the enemy while he is crouching/proning/in any animational state, it's an instant kill. They also have the power to boost you and your opponent, which is vital during flag raids.

Grenade spam is one annoying tactic, and can be used to spawnkill an entire enemy team, or just to keep the enemy team at bay while your flagger escapes ( see Voland ).

I'll experiment with longer delay between throws, but meanwhile I suggest that max grenades should be lowered to 3. That one less grenade makes a difference ( currently I almost have two times as many kills with grenades as I do with other guns, but that has been decreasing since I played on a server with 3 max. nades ).

As far as the voland situation goes, that's no more than a map flaw. I liek the idea of grenades having a slower interval between throws, i've only skimmed over this topic but it is annoying when someone who cant use grenades properly, violently throws them everywhere and you die as result. Although this doesn't happen much as like was mentioned grenades require practice and good timing & precision aiming(not so much at close range, duh). The quick fix is to play in a server with 2-3 nades, it'll train you better anyway.
In the servers i play in and tournament, nades are always set to 3 and i think the only nade-spamming i notice in the whole game is when people jet over the floating blue island on laos, and throw 3 nades in quick sucsession, as it works alot of the time when blue team players have just spawned.
The grenades them selvs are fine, just the 'fire rate' i reakon.

 Quote:I'll experiment with longer delay between throws, but meanwhile I suggest that max grenades should be lowered to 3. That one less grenade makes a difference ( currently I almost have two times as many kills with grenades as I do with other guns, but that has been decreasing since I played on a server with 3 max. nades ).

I definatelyagree, but I wish other league admins wouldagree with me ;|.

 Quote:Yeah, I wasn't amazed. You got a lot of lag kills, a few 4th nade kills, and was from the same war against that shoddy clan (no offense if any of you guys are readers here).


And you seem to miss the 15 times where I hit and they didnt die or got weakened. Twas a euro server and thats why I lagged, doesnt matter if its a "shoddy" clan. The simple fact that someone can use only grenades and do better than other players is enough to conclude they are more effective than need be. The results are exponentiated when you use a weapon alongside a nade, because in those situations you wont have to scramble back for grenade packs every 5 seconds. The times when they got weakened from my grenades, 1 ak shot would have killed them.

5% is hardly true,more towards 50%. And the other 50% dont agree because they rely on grenades to get most of thier kills. People dont agree with this suggestion, however a good part of players think grenades are too easy and strong.

Btw I have a question. I dont know who you are really... do you play in a clan/leagues?

 Quote:I'll experiment with longer delay between throws, but meanwhile I suggest that max grenades should be lowered to 3. That one less grenade makes a difference ( currently I almost have two times as many kills with grenades as I do with other guns, but that has been decreasing since I played on a server with 3 max. nades ).

It's normal to have more nade kills than with any other weapon because you always carry grenades, but you only use scertain weapons some of the time.

The thing is, nades DON'T kill in one blast unless you hit their feet. So I disregarded those 15 or so times.

And surprisingly, I don't play under the name "person", I don't really wish to reveal my soldat name either. But you wouldn't know me anyway, as I'm in Australia and don't play US (or any international) servers. But yes I do play in a clan and in Aus's basically only competition, the GA ladder.

And I said when more than 5% think that nades are "as overpowered as you".

And I'd like to show how many 'nade kills I have compared to primary weapon kills.... This is from playing in servers that have a maximum of 3 hand grenades.

[IMAGE]

Keep in mind, I'd like to think I'm half decent with nades also.
The reason why the thing looks like that is because of some bs... had to edit the image in PS because text was otherwise unreadable due to a windowblinds theme I use. Only program negatively affected = SLV.

And these records have been from the names I have used for my clan just since the release of 1.3.1.


From this, I'm laughing at the statement above saying "it's normal to have more kills from nades than any other weapon".

Um, those are your kills. Those logs dont mean anything, to get real numbers you should do Global Statistics and subtract it by Your own statistics, this gives a view of the "community". Also, I dont know, maybe the austrialian community doesnt abuse grenades or something, but those numbers arent even close to mine, which is from clanwars in the "big" clan community, meaning euro and North american.

My Global Statistics 1.3.1 (90% clanwars 10% publics):
Total Kills: 147726
Grenade Kills: 30076
Most Used Primary: 19759

Excluding my own statistics (meaning the "Community):
Total Kills: 125798
Grenade Kills: 25172
Most Used Primary: 14021

Bah, this idea is stupid. "Nades are too good because you can kill people with them. All you gotta do is throw them and hit the enemy with them." Welcome to the concept of shooting games. The goal is to hit the enemy with your weapons. Since when was any of this a problem? How is getting killed by a handful of nades something dispicable and evil compared to getting killed by a handful of bullets? it's just part of the game. Nades are part of how Soldat works. Soldat isn't Soldat without its fast gameplay, which is largely achieved by its implementation of grenades.

And sure, you can win a game with only nades. But how is that an advantage when everyone has them? If all you had to do to win a game was to use your nades well, then why doesn't everyone win games? This is known as the difference between someone skilled and unskilled. And beating a nub pub isn't really convincing. Back in 1.2.1 and 1.3 I could consistently get a 3:1 ratio on nub pubs with only nades and my saw, and nades were 70% of the kills. But how is that overpowered if everyone has equal acess to them yet not everyone uses them in a powerful way?

I hate weapon balance. There will never be a way to balance weapons. After you balance them all, then any weapon with a slight advantage will be considered overpowered. Eventually, all the weapons will end up being the exact same as each other, or end up being extremely weak. Don't worry about making weapons fair, make them FUN. It is far more fun if some weapons are better than others. In fact, all weapons have thier own uses, especially if you practice with them. I liked earlier versions where autos were a lot better, which balanced out autos vs one-shotters. We should work towards a FUN version, and keep it like that. There is no such thing as a fair version.

edited for wholesome goodness

I'm with swarmer here 100%.


and here's my global scores (with my own subtracted), but from all versions combined since I can't recall which names to exclude. (logs are mainly 1.3 and 1.3.1).

global kills: 448,317
Best Primary: 69,029 (M79)
Nades: 46,695

There are 2 other weapons with more total kills than nades; the baz with around 55,000 and the minimi which is *just* over. Most other primaries aren't that behind either.

 Quote: Bah, this idea is stupid. "Nades are too good because you can kill people with them. All you gotta do is throw them and hit the enemy with them." Welcome to the concept of shooting games. The goal is to hit the enemy with your weapons. Since when was any of this a problem? How is getting killed by a handful of nades something dispicable and evil compared to getting killed by a handful of bullets? it's just part of the game. Nades are part of how Soldat works. Soldat isn't Soldat without its fast gameplay, which is largely achieved by its implementation of grenades.

I dont understand this argument. The point of balancing weapons is because 1 weapon is favored in the game over other weapons. The point is that 1 weapon is abused. The point is that currently grenades provide a very easy way for people to kill others, comparing this to using primaries or secondaries.

 Quote:I hate weapon balance. There will never be a way to balance weapons. After you balance them all, then any weapon with a slight advantage will be considered overpowered. Eventually, all the weapons will end up being the exact same as each other, or end up being extremely weak. Don't worry about making weapons fair, make them FUN. It is far more fun if some weapons are better than others. In fact, all weapons have thier own uses, especially if you practice with them. I liked earlier versions where autos were a lot better, which balanced out autos vs one-shotters. We should work towards a FUN version, and keep it like that. There is no such thing as a fair version.

The reason your able to say this is because you play in public servers. When you play a clanwar, and 1 weapon is stronger than all the others, many will switch to that weapon. How is it fun when everyone is abusing 1 tactic or abusing 1 weapon to have the highest chance at winning? The whole "If you can use nades to win so easily, why isnt everyone winning", is like that retarded argument of sprayers "If spray is so easy, why dont you use it also". I find this argument really stupid (no offense). The reason you want to weaken them is to balance with the other things, such as primaries and secondaries, just because everyone has equal access does not mean they are not unbalanced. Yes they are not unbalanced for any specific person, but they are unbalanced compared to primaries and secondaries. This is almost like saying "everyone has access to m79 so why doesnt everyone use it", I think you can figure out the problem with saying something like that yourself. Weapons willbe fun if they are fair in my eyes, I dont see how anyone else wont think that way also. All weapons have thier own uses, but when 1 weapon can be used in all situations and used effectively, isnt there a problem?

 Quote:
global kills: 448,317
Best Primary: 69,029 (M79)
Nades: 46,695

I would love to be in the austrialian community, however this is not representative of the entire soldat community. The majority of players are in the europeon and North american clan communities, and I think my logs are more representative of that. My logs are from the big soldat leagues such as TNL and SCTFL. And in this community, nades are 21% of total kills, while the closest weapon is around 14% of total kills. I suppose this can explain why you dont see a problem, im sure you will think differently if you played in the actual big leagues, and you would be getting killed TWICE as often as you are now by nades.

I think nades should remain the way they are. I don't see why nades having the largest percentage of kills is any problem. I mean logically they should have the most kill percentage wise everyone has them and unlike other weapons most people don't have a perference against using them. There comes a point in a game where there needs to be something that is noob friendly and easy to pick up. The best solution would be to limit the nade usage in leauges like you pointed out earlier not to beat them with the nerf stick. This game doesn't need to be slowed down anymore this is also why I like the nade boosting effect :D

Good Idea. it would be cool if u threw it rihgt away and they can could catch and throw back lol

If were not going to get a delay on them they should only kill on the ground and have no impact while in the air. We could also add maybe fragment similar to what looks like spas shots that will surround a small area. I think this would be the best thing to do.

I just started playing again. Nades are NOT overpowered. They ONLY are 1-hit kills if you hit them in the feet, for some reason. If you hit thier upper body at all, it only does 50% damage max. Add lag to it, and they almost seem underpowered.

 Quote:
The reason your able to say this is because you play in public servers.

Since when did clanwars gain priority over public server games?

 Quote:
When you play a clanwar, and 1 weapon is stronger than all the others, many will switch to that weapon. How is it fun when everyone is abusing 1 tactic or abusing 1 weapon to have the highest chance at winning? The whole "If you can use nades to win so easily, why isnt everyone winning", is like that retarded argument of sprayers "If spray is so easy, why dont you use it also". I find this argument really stupid (no offense).

This is an invalid comparison. Everyone DOES have equal and full access to nades. With spraying and M79s, you have to pick that weapon to use it.
Tell me, how can nades be abused in a clan match? Tell me some of these evil tactics that win games so easily. You would think in a clanmatch, nades would be much less effective. The "unfair" part of nades lies soley in the fact that you can spam them and have random people walk on them. But in a clanmatch, you have much fewer players, making this strategy much less effective.


 Quote:
The reason you want to weaken them is to balance with the other things, such as primaries and secondaries, just because everyone has equal access does not mean they are not unbalanced. Yes they are not unbalanced for any specific person, but they are unbalanced compared to primaries and secondaries.

Why do they have to be compared to primarys and secondaries? Think about them as in thier own category.

 Quote:This is almost like saying "everyone has access to m79 so why doesnt everyone use it", I think you can figure out the problem with saying something like that yourself.

This is not like that at all. The problem with "everyone has acess to m79 so why doesnt everyone use it" is that you have to give up your current weapon (and all experience that goes with it) temporarily to use the advantages of M79s. This is not the case at all with nades. Everyone has always had the same amount. Using nades does not require giving up any part of your enjoyment.

 Quote:
Weapons willbe fun if they are fair in my eyes, I dont see how anyone else wont think that way also. All weapons have thier own uses, but when 1 weapon can be used in all situations and used effectively, isnt there a problem?

Sure, then there is a problem. But nades can't be used in all situations effectively. They have thier disadvantages too.

---

NADES ARE NOT OVERPOWERED
1. Nades are not easy to aim.
2. Nades do not kill in 1 hit. In fact they only do 50%-60% damage max unless the enemy walks on them.

Think of grenades as your secondary weapon, and your secondary as your tertiary.

Here's my explanation-while-telling-everyone-how-awesome-I-am part of my post:
I hit people with nades with like 90% accuracy, seeing how they were my exclusive weapon for almost my entire soldat career. At this point in Soldat, with 1.3.1, I can hit people with 2-4 nades without getting any kills. I stopped playing for a long time because of that, but I started up again when I gave up my chainsaw for an auto. Combining the extra reach and damage of an auto, I can finally put some use to my nades, which merely weaken them. Now I can actually kill people again. But I haven't been given any super advantage. I'm just another player, who is accurate with nades, but still relies on his primary to finish the job.

 Quote:Originally posted by PoopFirst of all, anyone who is going to come here and bull[CENSORED] about this is a game and not real life.. dont even post. The realism factor is only 1 reason why im making this suggestion.

How to make nades require skill?

The answer is as follow: Nades will have a timer, 2 seconds? or 2.5 seconds, the point is not how much time, its the time. After that much amount of time, they will explode.

They will not explode on contact with another soldat in mid-air, but will only explode when the timer runs out. They will still explode in contact with boxes and stuff though..

[edit]btw, I just thought about something else. It might be a bit complicated but meh. When you want to throw a nade, first you have to click the nade button, which will start the timer, after that you can throw it at anytime before the timer runs out with the nade in your hand, if it runs out then obviously you will suicide.. and it would be cool if you can actually see the time until the nade will explode on top of the nade in very small numbers...

The reason im suggesting this is so you can still actually get kills short range with nade, but you need to actually be good to get them.

#1 = This is more realistic
#2 = This will take away the 1% health nade spammers who can get doulbe kills
#3 = Nades require alot more skill than currently
#4 = Poop's ideas are always good.






I THINK THERE SHOULD BE [CENSORED]IN SMOKE (NOT THE F[CENSORED]IN TOBBACO) GRENADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Nades for sure need some sort of time limitation. There is no doubt about it. All the pros players seem to agree. Spaming nades is just lame.

I would like to see an option to disable the grenade kits so you will have to use your nades more tactically instead of spamming them every chance you got.

 Quote:Originally posted by SERIAL KILLeRI would like to see an option to disable the grenade kits so you will have to use your nades more tactically instead of spamming them every chance you got.

Excellent idea.
Otherwise, grenades are fine as they are.

The general opinion on why nades are a hot topic is due to their spamming capability and the "randomness" of their damage amount. Sure it's not random, but it doesn't make sense that they do maybe 4x times the damage on the feet, so it might as well be.

Well these are issues that the weapon modding can do very little about. Changing the nade frequency via the .ini isn't working, and altering the damages done on a players hitboxes can only be made by Mr. M.

Unless someone suggests ideas like this in the improvements forum grenades will most likely stay the same in 1.3.2.

I don't see what the problem with grandes is other than how fast you can throw them in succesion. Alot of people just seem to be complaining that they're dieing from them. In my opinion the people who arn't proficient with grenades are the ones who get shafted. Play with a nade limit of 3 or 2 and you wont see a problem with them in clanwars. Grenades are not a problem the throwing interval in 1.3.1 is the only problem.

you want realisim? what about those little flying jets attached to everybody's boots? if they don't do anything in mid air then i can never die from nads again because there's almost no way i can get killed by a nad on the ground....especially with jets...

oh and how about the fact that people can jump like 30 feets and can backflip 40 feets...

thanks for the update, chief.

If this were to be implemented, it would make me suck at the game 5x as hard.

edit: the game would also be less fun. doesn't anybody laugh when they die anymore?

What I do not understand is why server admins use the default settings of 4 nades and do not reduce them to 2. I have done this since loooong time ago and no one complaints about nade spamming.

Since the guns have been weakened so much it's virtually impossible in 2v1 situations if the other players know what they're doing, the grenades provide that extra element of attack in the air if you know how to use them right. Either jack up the guns a bit or just leave the nades as they are.

I think this is a lose-lose situation. No matter how soldat is altered, it will never be perfect, and people will always complain about something. One thing i have learned over time is that people love to complain, and people will actually TRY to find something to complain about. I say just leave it how it is.