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Wierd, very wierd
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Ok
June 7, 2006, 9:31 pm
WARNING ! VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY LONG post :)

most of this topic wasn't written by me, its just an article I read, now read the story about how I got to it.

I really couldn't find a better topic than that "Wierd very wierd".
Its just that, I'm a bit shocked...
And the combination of all the things I'm about to say, is just so wierd, its bound to shock some of you.

First of all, before I even write one word, this isn't a topic about the jewish religion, this isn't a topic about the Israeli-pala situation, so remember then before you decide to ignore the rest of this topic and just start the usual attention whoring.


I was well, bored, needed to take my mind off the studies, so I went on a porn hunt :)
So click some link in some website, and all of a sudden I hear Bruce Springsteen's "Human touch" (its a song...)
And I'm thinking, what the hell!?! I have no winamp on.. so I figured it must come from one of the pages to opened up..
I then closed all the "adds" and was left with the webpage of the actual flick I was clicking on before.
so I'm thinking, why is bruce springsteen being played on a porn webpage?!?!?!
so I went down and down, and got to this long scroll and below it that windows media bar with bruce singing :)

So I start reading the scroll, and I've shocked!
Before I explain why here are some facts you should know:

1- last week I read an article about how there's a new party in holland made of pedophiles who is working to lower the sex age from 16 to 12, claiming they're fighting for the rights of children..

2- just this week I wrote a thread about democracy and how its defective in allowing those who oppose it to use it inorder to gain power, and a long discussion went on about it.

3- I WAS in amsterdam last year and was kinda of puzzeled about the mentality of the dutch ppl and how they view things (I even met some dutch soldat players)

4- I saw the movie about kinsey and I read some about him and his work.

5- more then once I read about christian priests or are they catholic ? not sure, anyhow some cases in america where priests have abused children (sexualy)

6- I'm jewish (if you'll read the article you'll understand why I mentioned it)

Now, having said that, I started reading the scroll.
I'm not sure if I'm breaking any rules here, but if I am please just delete this link I'm posting (I will also copy/paste the actual article incase the link will be deleted)

Here is the link, its a regular porn webpage but scroll down untill you reach the long long article below, I suggest you read it!

I read it and it made a mess due to all the facts I mentioned before.
Its just, so wierd how all of those things I've been pondering about were blended into 1 long article in the name of the the christian religion.

Here's the link:
*snip*
(Edit: Link isn't working for some reason, if its the case later on, then just read the article)
Link removed by brick because 1) it would have been porn 2) to protect users from adware and spyware that still pops up even though it is a broken link

The Article

 Quote:Writing in that fateful year, 1939, T.S. Eliot, intellectual and Christian, admonished his contemporaries who had placed their faith in the triumph of democracy. Democracy is not enough, Eliot wrote.

''As political philosophy derives its sanction from ethics, and ethics from the truth of religion, it is only by returning to the eternal source of truth that we can hope for any social organization which will not, to its ultimate destruction, ignore some essential aspect of reality.

''The term 'democracy,' as I have said again and again, does not contain enough positive content to stand alone against the forces you dislike ? it can easily be transformed by them. If you will not have God (and He is a jealous God), you should pay your respects to Hitler and Stalin.''

When Eliot wrote, the world had before it a textbook example of how democracy can be exploited by its enemies: the Third Reich.

After his failed Beer Hall Putsch in 1923, Hitler decided to take the longer road to power, the democracy road.

Named chancellor of Germany as leader of the largest minority party in the Reichstag in 1933, Hitler used plebiscites to enable the German people to participate in his rule and ratify his policies. After the reoccupation of the Rhineland and the Anschluss with Austria, national referenda were held. Up to 99 percent of all Germans endorsed his actions. By Munich, he was the most popular political leader in Europe.

This, then, is the point. Democracy is but a process by which people participate in choosing and confirming their rulers. But if the peoples of Europe have lost their belief in the truths of Christianity ? the faith that made Europe ? and the morality and ethics derived from those truths, they can wind up with a hell on earth.

Which brings us to Holland, a nation that can rightfully claim to be in the avant-garde of post-Christian Europe.

In Amsterdam, in the Red Light District, there are brothels, sex shops and sex museums. Women advertise their charms in storefronts. Window prostitution has been legalized, as has possession of marijuana and hashish, which are sold over the counter in coffee shops. Drugs are done openly. Pornography is pervasive.

Amsterdam has a ''liberal and tolerant attitude,'' runs a web ad. ''Instead of criminalizing everything, this upfront city wears its heart on its sleeve.'' Not to be outdone, Utrecht has a canal-based red light district. Rotterdam has sex clubs and private houses for the legalized enjoyment of the pleasures of the flesh.

Holland also leads Europe in the ''liberal and tolerant'' stance it has taken toward suicide. In April 2002, a Dutch law took effect permitting physicians to assist in euthanasia and suicides so long as the procedure is carried out in a medically appropriate fashion.

Anyone 16 or over has a right to suicide. If you are between 12 and 16, you have to get your guardian's approval to kill yourself. In World War II, the Dutch doctors who resisted the Nazi euthanasia program were heroes. Apparently, those doctors were just behind the times.

The latest news from Holland is that a new party is about to be formed, the Charity, Freedom and Diversity Party. Principal platform plank: reduction of the legal age for sex from 16 to 12 years old.

''We are going to shake The Hague awake!'' say the pedophiles of Holland, for whom dropping the age for sex to 12 is but the beginning. They wish to eradicate all prohibitions on sex with children and with animals.

This, of course, would cheer the late Dr. Alfred Kinsey, the American sexologist whose ''researchers'' either abused scores of children and infants, or who used the testimony of child-molesters to make the case that adult-child sex can be beneficial to both.

Which brings us back to Eliot's point. If one rejects Christianity, and the morality and ethics that proceed from it, on what ground does one stand to outlaw drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, assisted suicide and sex with children or dogs?

Holland today, and America ? with its toll of aborted babies now nearing the 50 million mark since Roe v. Wade ? raise profound questions for conservatives and traditionalists.

What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society? Do we still owe it allegiance and loyalty? Does a community have the right to impose its values, if those values are rooted in religion, on a minority that disbelieves in those values? We certainly did that during the civil rights era of the 1960s.

At what point does a regime, even if democratically elected, become illegitimate, as surely Hitler's was by the time Eliot wrote?

''What makes you think the West is worth saving?'' the priest asked Whittaker Chambers when he visited him in that hospital room in the 1950s. Good question then. Better question now.

Perhaps the Muslims, who may well be a majority in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague in 10 years, will moot the issue for us all.

Ok
June 7, 2006, 9:51 pm
Now for those who actually read it ^_^

Some points:
The article basicly says that without religion , democracy is crap...
when they say religion they mean the christian religion, which made me wonder, how does that work with all the pedphile priest I've been hearing about?

It also makes you think though, democracy is based on our ethics, where did we get those from? can it be that we are all blind followers of religion without even knowing it?
prehapes religion IS the way to go?

Chakra`
June 7, 2006, 9:51 pm
Chakra says:
dear lord guv ...summerise ffs!

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
dude, 60% of that post is an article

Chakra says:
60% of that post is 2 [CENSORED]ing pages!

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
I know

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
but every word is important there

Chakra says:
don't expect many intelligent responses with something that insanely big

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
oh comon

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
I wouldn't wirte THAT much if it wasn't neccecery

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
I wanted to just post a link..

Chakra says:
being serious guv ...that has to be the biggest bunch of words i've ever [CENSORED]ing seen on this forum in one post

Chakra says:
type a damn [quote] ['/quote] box around it or something

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
but the link doesnt work anymore

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
erm Ok

Chakra says:
i read the top part and still don't have a [CENSORED]ing clue what it's about ...

Chakra says:
all i got was ...bruce springsteen, porn, then all of a sudden catholic priests and pedophilia.... wtf you been doing

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
what? you didn't understand that I was looking for porn

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
and then ran into that link?

Chakra says:
no

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
well same ehre mate!

Chakra says:
come to think of it, wtf did you type into google to get christian pedophilia?

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
I haev no idea wth does that article has to do with porn

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
no the link has a regular webpage porn in it

Chakra says:
right

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
2 girls, 1 guy

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
all of a sudden this wierd article about democracy

Chakra says:
well, we do have a right to look at porn

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
did u read the article?!

Chakra says:
[CENSORED] no ...i ain't got that kinda time on my hands ...i'm salvaging as much recreational time in these late hours as i most possibly [CENSORED]ing can, not spending it reading articles about pedophile priests and your perverted web browsing habits, you sick [CENSORED]ing monkey

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
well duh

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
no wonder u dont know what its about

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
the article is the main point

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
the article isn't about pedophile priests.. wtf

Ok - 'cause its all OK says:
it doesnt even mention it..

Chakra says:
i shall now copy and paste this into the forums as response

Ok
June 7, 2006, 9:58 pm
I really liked the

Chakra says:
don't expect many intelligent responses with something that insanely big

^_^ does anyone actually expects that?

Famine
June 7, 2006, 9:59 pm
I agree, partially. You don't need religion to have the set of morals that Christians may have (the broad ones), but democracy will follow the majority and whatever they believe in.

The age lowering is definitely [CENSORED]ed up.

Response to the validity of religion. It all depends on the person, some people need it and some don't. Some people like it, but could live without it.

Ok
June 7, 2006, 10:20 pm
Religion aims to set us all as robots to behave kindly to each other, I mean, that's its original purpose in my opinion.
The fact that with time humanity had turned it into something else, well that's another story.
But still, do we really need to program human beings to act like that? and if we do, does it limit us?
I mean, if I'm a religious person, does that mean I can't be a scientist?

I do belive that it does limit us and holds back some advancements humanity can achieve, but without the priniciples of religion + democracy things that happened in Germany, Iraq, Iran etc.. can happen again.

So the question is, do we want to take that risk inorder to make sure we are doing our best to advance as a species?

I'm also thinking is it even possible, when we see so many religous ppl who are hypocrits, who represent anything the religion they follow condems..
Is it even possible to look at religion today as a pure source of good?

Famine
June 7, 2006, 10:27 pm
No, but there is no pure source of good. If you are going into religion because you want to be on "god's goodside", then I think you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Does religion make us robots? To a degree, but not completely. Just because you believe in a set of standards that someone else believes in, doesn't make you the same. You still are quite different.

And yes, a religious person can be a scientist, although some theories they may not agree on. Hell, we can't even get scientist who are not religious to agree on certain theories.

peemonkey
June 7, 2006, 10:28 pm
Why do people put religion in everything?

Ender
June 7, 2006, 11:36 pm
You're a pretty pathethic human being if you only keep moral standards because otherwise you'll go to hell. I think it's perfectly possible to build yourself an moral profile without religion to guide you.

If you keep principles only because some books / religious organisation tell you to it is very dangerous, because it could be any principles, it could also be even principles. Think of all the things people did wrong in the name of religion. Crusades, inquisition, terrorism, the founding of the state israel.

I'm not saying morals from christianity are wrong though, some of these ideas are very good, but take care that these are just ideas, not rules, find the arguments they have and use them to support your own ideas. I have a very interesting book written by Martinus of Braga, a portugese earthbisshop, in the 6th century after christ. The book is about morality and it's written by an important catholic leader in that time but it bases its theory on arguments and not because 'it says so in the book'. That's the way it should be.

NOW to the whole american-conservative holland bashing: (not directed to OK but to the writer of the article)

About the pedophile party, sure there ideas are bad... but so what? At least they're not abusing children as long as it's illegal. They want to legalize it and i oppose it, but i know they have no chance. Why forbid the party? The Netherlands is a democracy, you can't forbid parties just because they don't agree with you. That's pretty sick and fascist. I saw some german site on which they called to let the german government 'say NO' to the pedophile party... that sounds very 40-45.

About euthenasia: wtf? if you will live in pain every day and the doctors know you will never recover, you still have to keep living in agony all this time because some OTHER PEOPLE belief life is a gift by a supreme upperbeing with supernatural powers? Is that what your american freedom is all about? In holland you have a right to decide on your own life! And if you have the right it's logical that someone will assist you with it instead of having to do it yourself which would turn out very painfull, bloody and shocking for friends and relatives.

About drugs: In holland less people use drugs then in the united states or france. This proofs your fascist policy does not work and it proofs that if you give people an educated choice they can chose wisely. Plus marihuana is proven to be less addictive and less destructive than alcohol.

About red light districts: New York has a red light district too, even although it's the capital of your fascist christian nation. Thanks to our laws these people working in the industry receive fair benefits and a pension. They are tested for sexual deseases. There is made sure there are no minor prostitutes. There is made sure the prostitutes are not forced to labour.

Our nation is liberal, not morally depraved. We don't live by rules written in a thousand year old book but dare to have our own morals. Our policy is pragmatic and has proven to work. These things you speak so bad about also happen in your country on a very big scale. Only you try to ignore while we try to improve it.

BACK TO OK
 Quote:when they say religion they mean the christian religion, which made me wonder, how does that work with all the pedphile priest I've been hearing about?
What about it? Pedophily is illegal according to that catholic church, only their priests are not infallible, like any other people... so what?


AerialAssault
June 8, 2006, 12:28 am
yay sex and marijuana.

wormdundee
June 8, 2006, 12:58 am
Yeh, about the same quote Ender quoted up there...

Well, this'll probably offend a lot of people but I personally cannot consider Catholicism a form of Christianity, or at least not one that I can agree with. The Catholic church is corrupted and some of their philosophy is very...strange. Such as worshiping Mary. Yes, she was an important part of Jesus' life but she was still a person. Also, the whole confession thing to a priest...but anyways, I'm getting off point here.

It is indeed an interesting thing to find off a porn website :P

And I do have to disagree with the point made in the article about that if you reject Christianity you are automatically rejecting all morals that you have. There are plenty of people who are non-Christians that are much more moral than some Christians than I know, including me. It just seems like a stupid thing to say.

Pulp
June 8, 2006, 5:00 am
This is just the plain old discussion between the conservative ideology and the progressive ideology ( in america i mean the paleocons with the conservatives ). A democracy gives the power to the ideology the majority voted for, if there's a majority, it's logic the ideas/ideology of the majority is reflected in the policy of the politicians elected by that majority.

First of all it's important to note that T.S. Eliot wrote this in 1939, exactly 9 years BEFORE the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ( http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html ) was written and approved by the countries member of the UN. Needless to say some laws during Hitler's period in Germany were against the human rights, so there would be, theoretically, taken action by the UN Security Council, and if necessary, UN military forces.

Eliot also claims ethics are only based on religion, and religion is the 'eternal source of truth'. Strange that our friend Eliot totally ignored the realizations during the Age of Enlightenment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment ). A good example to clarify things is the French revolution ( 1789-1799 ) which caused a major change in Western democracy. During the French revolution there was a clash between people ( mainly the aristocrats ) that wanted the monarchy to keep ( a monarchy which had absolute power and based its ideology on the roman catholic view on ethics ) and people that wanted a republic with an ideology based on ratio, on reason. We can say the western democracy, as we know it know, was born with that clash won by the republicans.

Of course there's still a strong significant influence by the christian ideology, the christian view on moral issues, but it's still the majority that decides how strong that influence is and will be in the future. On the other subject in this topic, for me it's a relief to see the new dutch political party ( Charity, Freedom and Diversity Party ) exists, and actually has a very interesting ideology, an ideology which i almost agree totally with, being a liberal putting the 'individual' in the centre. If I was a 'dutchie' I'd most likely vote for them, just cause their ideology is based on rational perceptions of the human psyche, the society we live in. It's at least interesting to confront ourselves with preconceived opinions about ethic questions in a scientifical, rational way, leaving dogmas behind us.

Ok
June 8, 2006, 6:46 am
With all do respect to individual rights, a 12 year old girl is not a full individual, as a matter of fact an 18 years old isn't one either according to most countries.

The idea of allowing mature men, (and think about 40-50 , not just 20yo young) to have sex with 12 year old girls, is horrible, and not just because its the right thing to say.
There's a reason why the law doesnt allow it, and the fact that, that party actually takes that as their argument shows they're either really stupid, or just living in a world of their own.

This is one of the problems of democracy, its like a [CENSORED], open to all for the right prise..
And that party might just as well gain one day enough power and you might see old man hitting on your weak minded innocnent little girls.. the idea of that happening, is just frightining to me.

You know, there's one thing quit genius about the christian religion, how they consider all these "dark" desires we have to be the devil, and how they should be feared.
The jewish religion is also adressing that in the same manner, though the jewish religion claims those temptation need to be there for us to actualy proof ourself to god, or something like that ..

Anyhow.. democracy gave Hitler his power, you say in later dates the UN will get involved..
Well I'll ask you what about kosovo? as a matter of fact, what about ISrael, the world seem to think we're buthcering ppl here, why aren't we flooded with UN military?

And give me a break, it was a world war because the whole world was needed to rise against hitler, so the UN weak army wouldn't do [CENSORED].

I'm not a religious person, and sure as hell not christian, but it has some good espects to it, religion that is... and you can't deny that all of our morals come from something, we didn't invent them you know..
meh, I lost my point...

Anyhow, Hevenu shalom aleichem...

Mothafix
June 8, 2006, 8:59 am
I have never seen that much text in one topic. O_O

frogboy
June 8, 2006, 9:59 am
Well, if the 12 year old doesn't consent, it's still rape anyway, and any rapist would obviously be sentenced harsher because it's a 12 year old. Besides, you're acting like having sex with children is rampant throughout Europe, which I doubt is the case.

The point of democracy is what the majority of people want. I doubt millions of Dutch people are in support of having sex with 12 year olds. The situation in Germany was different. The world was suffering from the Great Depression and the government at the time was unpopular. Hitler gained popularity through his speeches and he convinced the majority of people to let him represent them.