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Minigun - it's about time we did something
Soldat Forums - Misc - Soldat Beta Testing
Chakra`
June 12, 2005, 2:29 pm

I really, honestly, don't like to hassle about the weapon balance. Especially now that it's fully modifiable. We've got other things to look into as well.


However, the minigun has been an overlooked minor curse for a long time.


For ages, bored or annoying players resort to the minigun for one simple use - surfing. It's not a respectable tactic, and it's always only ever used when players are waiting for a clan war to begin, or to sincerely annoy the enemy.


Now, i've tried fiddling around with the minigun's stats... increasing the ROF does have an effect on the ability to surf with the gun.
However, theres still a significant boost from using the gun, as well as stopping you to a halt when trying to run forward with it.


Incidently, the ROF (or FireInterval in the weapon.ini) for the minigun is set to 4 as standard. I doubled it to 8. The steyr is 7, and the AK74 is 11.

So I then reduced the ROF to 5, but also lowered the speed of the bullet to about 150. It just about stopped the ability to surf, but now it just looks like you're making it rain, like a more-curved mp5.




I'm not sure what I could possibly change to make the minigun less of a player-launching 'tool', yet still remain as a minigun. Otherwise any other modifications makes it too similiar to the other autos we have.





grand_diablo
June 12, 2005, 3:02 pm
May 2 cents:

Chak is right, its boosting capatibilities should be decreased without making it shoot like a crippled mp5.

Additionally to the fact, that minigunsurfing is often used to annoy people, it produces lags and therefore bugs aswell. I often directly hit players surfing towards me directly with the law, and by a 75% chance they only get a tad slower for a short time, but aren't hurt.

Cookie.
June 12, 2005, 3:35 pm
well when you are in the air with the minigun i think you should lose some control and get launched still otherwise it would be too easy to use?

Chakra`
June 12, 2005, 3:35 pm
Yeah thats another thing. Back on my old K6/2 500mhz pc, Soldat was quite playable upto about 10 players. But a minigun turned soldat into a slide-show.

Psyl3ntShad0w
June 12, 2005, 6:27 pm
turn the minigun into a mortar, much like the m79 in kazuki's server (fires clusters really really far). no more minigun and a new cool weapon makes for interesting more tacticalness. :-)

although...the minigun has been with us for awhile...

Chakra`
June 12, 2005, 6:44 pm
I've been talking to a few people and it seems they share a similar idea - replace the minigun with a new weapon.

I know i'd be willing to make new graphics for it, whatever it would be...only other thing would be sounds.



Otherwise, i'm still not sure how to stop minisurfing abuse yet.

grand_diablo
June 12, 2005, 7:18 pm
a mortar would be cool.

- reload time as m79*1.5
- 2 times bigger range
- 2 times faster nade
- nade explodes like a clusterbomb, but with more damage


Or a weapon with a 5 ammo clip
- whenever you press fire, you shoot all 5 bullets at once with about the speed of the ak
- bullet speed: ruger*0.8
- once bullet does 20% damage as torso hit, so if all 5 hit, it should be a kill. if 3 hit the head, too
- reload time: ruger*1.8

just a weird suggestion but maybe worth a try


but on the other side, what is soldat without the minigug - we should try how a replacement would work out, and if it doesnt work out good, we bring the minigun back :p

Psyl3ntShad0w
June 12, 2005, 8:08 pm
would it be possible to make the mortar crouch+fire like the law assuming we test it as a replacement for minigun? crouch fire should nerf it quite a bit lol.

Chakra`
June 12, 2005, 8:20 pm
Never quite understood the idea behind a mortar. Wouldn't bombarding the enemy be a tad overpowering? And don't we have many weapons to it's effect already?

grenades are short range, m79 is medium, and LAW is long. Wouldn't a mortar hit the roof in most maps too? And how would it suffice as a primary weapon against others?

Meandor
June 12, 2005, 9:00 pm
Why replace a weapon? You can always add a new slot. If the issue is that there aren't enough numbers, you can just use the '\' (or '~' on american keyboards), or any other letter, since they're blocked when you need to select a weapon. Now that I think of it, the full WM has added tons of possibilities, so being able to add weapon slots wouldn't be bad.
Also, Psy's right. You can do it with WM. Tbh, it doesn't work out, unless you're playing in open maps (you can use nades as ammo.. but they bounce everywhere). Indirect fire isn't really soldat's thing, except those rare shells and knives that occasionally fall back down hitting someone ;)

frogboy
June 13, 2005, 1:48 am
Setting the MovementAcc way up (99) seems to push less, and it still fires normally when still.

Cookie.
June 13, 2005, 1:50 am
quote:Originally posted by grand_diablo

Or a weapon with a 5 ammo clip
- whenever you press fire, you shoot all 5 bullets at once with about the speed of the ak
- bullet speed: ruger*0.8
- once bullet does 20% damage as torso hit, so if all 5 hit, it should be a kill. if 3 hit the head, too
- reload time: ruger*1.8

but on the other side, what is soldat without the minigug - we should try how a replacement would work out, and if it doesnt work out good, we bring the minigun back :p


I like it ^__^

Michal Marcinkowski
June 13, 2005, 2:01 pm
Well I won't remove the minigun it's a big part of Soldat. Maybe I can add a setting to change the surf amount.

palloco
June 13, 2005, 4:02 pm
People always trying to remove the weapons they dont use or dont know how to use them...
If you whine about minigun surfing do the same with M79, why is it lamer doing it with minigun rather than with m79? Maybe because 60% of the people use only m79 and then it is not lame.
There are ways of avoiding this like that one of changing the surf amount, setting as an option like realistic mode, one where players do not interact with other objects (depending on the way soldat is programmed it may harder or easier.) or simply disallowing shooting backwards(just like in dodge movement), it wont disallow surfing at all but it will make it harder.

palloco
June 14, 2005, 5:28 pm
I've been playing with minigun settings and there are pretty interesting things:
Set it to use m79 bullets and put speed to 50. Now try to kill someone in a small tunneled map like kampf :D.
If instead of that it throws frag grenades, they wont kill on impact or while standing on them , just when they are exploded by their timing.
Setting the fire interval to 10 with the normal configuration makes the minigun more accurate and reduces the surfing

grand_diablo
June 14, 2005, 5:33 pm
Palloco, the disadvantages of minigunsurfing compared with m79 boostarding (i wont have a problem if that becomes harder too) are:

- minigunsurfing produces lag (probably cause of the enourmous bullet amount and high speed of the player doing it)
- this lag is causing worse play for ppl with older cpus + lagbugs like an unkillable minigunsurfer (see description above)
- Additionally, all team mates who are behind you, will be interrupted by the bullets spraying towards them, which is another annoyance

All those 3 points dont apply to an m79 boost. Sure boostarding on b2b, for example, from the beginning on is lame too, but at least a boostard can be killed easier, for he isnt that fast and not producing lag.

DeMonIc
June 14, 2005, 5:39 pm
I think the minigun surf cure may be simple: overheat. After like 30 bullets are shot out. A good minigunner won't suffer from this disadvantage a lot, but surfing would be cut down to minimum.

palloco
June 14, 2005, 6:12 pm
Lagging others is lame? So if you have a bad server you are lame? weird
Surfing does not imply spraying teamies.

A good minigunner will suffer from that restriction, since minigun is used to fight several people at once and 30 bullets arent enough.

DeMonIc
June 14, 2005, 6:48 pm
I don't know about you, but I always do 2-3 spin ups per battle, so I can keep my aim and waste less bulletts.

Psyl3ntShad0w
June 14, 2005, 7:16 pm
"Lagging others is lame? So if you have a bad server you are lame? weird"

How can you even compare the two?

FliesLikeABrick
June 14, 2005, 8:12 pm
minigun's dont lag the server, they lag people who are on (Please refrain from swearing)ty computers.

people play on my server and hate it when someone uses minigun because it makes all the client computers process a lot more information on the projectiles and everything. Meanwhile, people who are on good computers dont notice any decrease in performance. This is a point that many people have misunderstood. Any decent server will not actually be lagged by miniguns, it is all about the clients, which is why chakra brought up his old k6 500mhz

Chakra`
June 14, 2005, 9:00 pm
I'm on a lofty 2.2ghz with geforce3 512mb ram etc etc...no lag for me.
But back on my old K6, the game seriously dropped to less than 1 frame a second if two miniguns set off at the same time. One minigun was enough to drop my fps to 5. It's not bandwidth, but too much client data going on.

But enough on lag. It's the gameplay I worry about. Many servers these days - and I really mean many - simply disable the weapon because people will try to surf with it.

Why do they remove it? well, it doesn't benefit either team. Surfing will spray back your own team, and more than likely propel you to certain doom. Even if the user is wise enough not to spray directly onto his own team, it's still considered a waste of a players' slot on the server to feck around like an eejit.
Almost always the weapon is used simply for intended annoyance in a public server, so it's taken out.

I think even most leagues have the minigun banned...


This is really a shame, because the minigun could be used as an effective weapon even as it is, but it rarely comes to that. Nerf the surf, baby.

Bugs Revenge
June 14, 2005, 10:45 pm
quote:Originally posted by pallocoPeople always trying to remove the weapons they dont use or dont know how to use them...
If you whine about minigun surfing do the same with M79, why is it lamer doing it with minigun rather than with m79? Maybe because 60% of the people use only m79 and then it is not lame.
There are ways of avoiding this like that one of changing the surf amount, setting as an option like realistic mode, one where players do not interact with other objects (depending on the way soldat is programmed it may harder or easier.) or simply disallowing shooting backwards(just like in dodge movement), it wont disallow surfing at all but it will make it harder.


It's "lame" with minigun since it's lagging
Look, especialy me or you or ppl like us with 100+ ping can't kill any minigunner at all.. u have to aim miles from him in order to kill him.
maybe just make the machinegun not a weapon that shots but only makes you surf? it would be less laggy and none would whine about it coz NONE actualy use the machinegun in order to kill.

palloco
June 16, 2005, 8:46 am
Maybe not you, but I am able to kill a minigunner if he is fighting. If he is surfing you know by the screen (or by the sound) that he is coming and you just kill him. It is much easier killing a minigunner than killing you when you are using the m79 boosts.
Oh, btw, I have a 400 mhz machine and a 45,3 kbps connection, so I should be the one complaining about being slowed down but I dont. Why? Because I can handle 2 minigunners or 1 surfer(this also depends on the map), and you will rarely see more than 1 surfer or 2 minigunners.
Less than 20 people play soldat with a computer slower than mine.

m00`
June 16, 2005, 9:13 am
Leave the minigun as it is, i think there should be more people complaining about the m79 than the minigun at the moment, if it lags you get a new computer, i have NEVER felt lag from the minigun, and i am honestly sick of the minigun whining, let people surf with it, dont people like when people use minigun? it makes the game more fun!

whats up with everyone and trying to erase the word fun from soldat! grrr! every game improvement in the soldat forums get replies like 'too complicated' so what if its too complicated, it would be fun! stop making soldat into a serious game, its supposed to be funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn and thats why mini gun surfing exist and there isnt THAT many people that do it anyway, quit complaining about it ;(((

oh yah and stop removing minigun from your servers, its sad! and banning it from leagues is also sad! its part of the game and your playing a game called soldat and soldat has a gun called the minigun and the minigun is weak and its fast and its fun and you can surf with it, dont change it michal :(

grand_diablo
June 16, 2005, 11:15 am
quote:Originally posted by pallocoMaybe not you, but I am able to kill a minigunner if he is fighting. If he is surfing you know by the screen (or by the sound) that he is coming and you just kill him. It is much easier killing a minigunner than killing you when you are using the m79 boosts.


wrong (imo)

If youre shooting them with LAW for example, you will kill the m79 booster more often than the minigunner, i bet. The m79, as he is flying high, is harder to hit with a LAW indeed, but he isnt producing lags and only very fast for a short moment. The minigunner is lagging + constantly very fast, and very often he only gets slower for a short moment when i directly hit him with the LAW, instead of dying.

I dont think the minigun should be nerfed too much, but minigunsurfing should be a tad more difficult and the gun's "laggyness" should be decreased.

Michal Marcinkowski
June 16, 2005, 11:44 am
Maybe I can change the minigun so it only surfs vertically, and horizontally just a bit?

m00`
June 16, 2005, 11:46 am
michal keep it as it is, if you change it, no one will ever use it

after all its already one of the weakest guns

LazehBoi
June 16, 2005, 11:54 am
You don't remember that topic someone made about the person who was at the top of a duel ladder with the minigun, do you? :P

grand_diablo
June 16, 2005, 4:43 pm
quote:Originally posted by m00`michal keep it as it is, if you change it, no one will ever use it

after all its already one of the weakest guns


See, there is need to change it!

Its used for moving faster mainly, although its a GUN not a VEHICLE!!1one
So im for Michals idea of modifying it.

Cookie.
June 17, 2005, 4:06 am
quote:Originally posted by m00`michal keep it as it is, if you change it, no one will ever use it

after all its already one of the weakest guns


If the movement was decreased it would make it more powerful because you would have more control and be able to tame this beast of a gun :P

Chakra`
June 17, 2005, 4:29 am
Cookie speaks the truth. The minigun while not making any movement can be very deadly with a few headshots. I'd love to see the minigun become a practical weapon, as i'm sure it'd be welcome by everyone.

m00`
June 17, 2005, 7:03 am
yah but your removing the fun from it why not make it good yet fun? i have never seen minigun used as a serious weapon just for fun minigun surfing

DeMonIc
June 17, 2005, 8:54 am
Well I have, and it's much more fun as a weapon. The carnage, the pure superiority, as the bulletts force the players to move into corners, where they are soon trapped, and shred to tiny pieces by the screaming bullets.. and afterwhich they yell "noob/lamer/omg!" and call a vote kick on you ¬_¬

Deleted User
June 17, 2005, 10:16 am
Yeah, in ctf I sometimes use minigun to pin enemy flag cappers in my base so they can't escape and they DIE >:) especially on ctf_Kampf, its perfect.

I really have no problem with the gun, if it becomes more competitive, then more people will complain at the spray/surfing/client side lag. As it is, its fine imo.

Bugs Revenge
June 17, 2005, 10:34 am
I can't use this gun since it's lagging me even more..
my ping generaly is 100+.
If I try to use it and I hit ALL of my bullets in the enemy there's just a little chance he would die since of the lag and I don't realy see where is he.

Outcast
June 17, 2005, 1:52 pm
Well....The only thing i hate at minigun surfing is when my team mate flies past me and pushes me back... :(

Psyl3ntShad0w
June 17, 2005, 9:33 pm
make the minigun crouch fire? that would nerf surfing in an instant...but might totally destroy the usefulness of the gun. =/

palloco
June 17, 2005, 10:13 pm
ROFL minigun camping

N1nj@
June 17, 2005, 11:28 pm
lol who suggested crouch fire for the minigun?

KnOt
June 18, 2005, 7:46 pm
I've used Minigun like a serious primary.. I managed just about with it... It has it's advantages and disadvantages, like all weapons do.

Chakra`
July 5, 2005, 11:22 pm
So now that you can't surf with minigun ....is anyone any good with it? I find it takes me about a whole clip to kill a guy.

Who's up for increasing the damage by a small amount?

?
July 5, 2005, 11:25 pm
*shakes fist in agreement*

Chakra`
July 5, 2005, 11:43 pm
Well I was messing around with bots... 54 damage is standard

On 59 I was getting kills in CTF situations in around 30 bullets. 56 feels right to me. You give it a shot.