I mean...what is up with it now? You have to hold it down for 2 seconds to fire? The long reload time is already sufficient so that it's not too powerful, pretty much making it a shoot-and-drop weapon, thus eliminating the possibility of it being abused.

To be honest, I don't even see it as a usable weapon anymore. With Soldat being a fast paced game, two seconds could be very decisive. Please, bring back the Law the way it was. I don't even know why it was nerfed...I never saw any complaints with regards to it.

I agree.

I disagree. I just call law the "1-kill-guarantee" in 1.2.1, because imho it is nothing more than that. It can be used very fast, it's aiming is easy to learn, and it kills via 1 single shot. It's similiar to Barret, you mostly don't have the time to react before you are dead. But with this 2 seconds delay + bink you can actually avoid being hit by it, what's nearly impossible in 1.2.1 as long as the user is good enough with it. Also LAW is definately overused in clanwars if you ask me (what you won't do for sure=). As long as anyone just cares about winning, AK/Minime+LAW are often the only weapons used in clanwars. And just guess why exactly those weapons are chosen.
Anything can be changed after the release of 1.2.2 (I hope), so I'd say just give it a try.

I also concur. However I also agree that it's far too annoying and powerful a secondary.

Why not just ....bink it? (again)

Because that would render it to a weapon that can only be used for camping?

I think it's fine now.. the charge-up can come to your advantage too, since you can trick your enemy to dodge out, scaring him, or you can change your mind about shooting.

I think it's fine in 1.2.2 as well. I remember Chakra once saying that we shouldn't say we don't like things the first time we see them. Give it time and try to get used to it. You might find that it's not as bad as you once thought. I think it's fine as it is now, but everytime I play 1.2.1 I start missing because I wait for the 2-second startup time. ;P

Im fine with the change, just that "charging" time could be shortened a bit. But the change itself is k.

Speaking of charging time, even though my volume is down to 0%, I can still hear the whirring of the LAW and the Minigun during start-up time.

it's fine now
the law in the last version was just 1shot_kill_weapon secondary weapon which is a way overpowered.
there was no chance beating skilled LAW guy with any weapon but barret.

I'll take down the first reload time and make it fire while standing, it should be fine then.

fire while standing? aw thats gonna suck >.<

Don't think it's necessary that it's possible to fire it while standing. And I also think that the reload time is just fine, it's not really long anymore. It's nice that it got weakened, but if it gets more advantages now just nothing will change i guess.. Since the aiming itself isn't much harder with the delay, why should it have an even less reload time? It shouldn't be a second barret, but just a secondary weapon, a weapon that's LESS useful than a primary weapon...

That'll be cool, as long as it doesn't fire when you're moving.

And we won't be able to fire it while in the air?

Ahh, the good old prone-in-midair trick...

Argh don't make it fire while standing, in stead bring back being able to fire it in the air (crounched and proned).

naaah, no fire while standing pls, just lower that pre-shot-time a bit :p

Is Michal being sarcastic? I don't understand what he means with 'the first reload time'.

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiI'll take down the first reload time and make it fire while standing, it should be fine then.


=\ No offense, but I can't tell if you're joking or not.

I think it's perfectly fine the way it is. Maybe you could just barely decrease the startup time, but other than that, I think it should stay as is.

Michal was being serious, he mentioned the idea when we were playing 1.2.2b for the first time.

And by first reload time, Michal means the bullet fire time that has to load before the gun can fire...like when you have to switch to it on spawn and leave it a second before you can fire it.

Thanks, babe <3

I still think that 'wind-up' time should be removed. Law with bink is fine. Just remove that damn wind-up time. Argh!

I was seriuos :), Stalky is right.
I always tought the prone-air shot was cool, but I removed it because the LAW was too powerful, but now with the startup time you are really going to have to master it, so why not even make it prone-air fireable?

I don't think that's a good idea... maybe if there is bink, ok. But definately not without. You don't even need to lawcamp then anymore, just waste the enemies as you see them...

quote:I always tought the prone-air shot was cool, but I removed it because the LAW was too powerful, but now with the startup time you are really going to have to master it, so why not even make it prone-air fireable?Alright, fair enough. I agree :)

So will the Law BE binked then or not?

It should be binked if it could shot mid_air

It should? It must...

We'll see how it goes in the next beta.

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiI was seriuos :), Stalky is right.
I always tought the prone-air shot was cool, but I removed it because the LAW was too powerful, but now with the startup time you are really going to have to master it, so why not even make it prone-air fireable?


I like that, but would you make it crouch-air fireable too? And make the MovementAcc 0 .. :Q

[irony]Nice way of weakening this weapon by making it be much, much more useful...[/irony]

Id be fine by just letting it have only a very few bink but the shooting delay instead. no need for crouch-air firing imo...

Ok, so the discussion was about weakening the Law this time. But what now? It's just much, much stronger now! The delay is far short, like it's now it's just like there's no delay. And the ability to make it be able to fire in the air just gives it damn much more power. And also, what's the delay for without bink? Perhaps so you can shoot 0,25 bullets more before you are dead? I think the delay is a great idea, so that you can shoot the LAWer before he kills you, so that he might miss because of the bink. LAW is too powerful in 1.2.1, now it's much more powerful!

This 'discussion' was never about weakening the LAW..

And why not make it fire it in the air? How often would you get to kill like that? Especially with the delay.. You hate the LAW, but it doesn't mean it has to be completely useless ¬_¬ .. This delay makes it pathetic in relatively small maps.. But AT LEAST, if we can fire it in the air it's something, and don't forget you'd have to be proning, and you fall very fast..

We're not talking about using LAW on Mikra in DM, but in CTF. And I doubt any of the CTF maps are too small or anything. And why would proning be a problem? You need perhaps 0,5 seconds for proning. Do you really think you will fall much in this time? Then it needs another 0,5 seconds for shooting. So there's a whole 1 second delay. What is this good for? Oh great, I can fire 1-2 more useless shots at the LAWer, but I'll be dead anyway. What's the point of that?
And tell me, if it wasn't about weakening the LAW, why were the delay and bink suggested and implemented at first? We ARE talking about weakening the LAW. If not, I'm really wrong here, and some of you really don't know what "balance" actually is about then it seems.
I don't want to flame anything here, but it just makes me totally mad. That's just ridiculous! The LAW IS overpowered and definately overused in clanwars. And now it's even much more powerful! That makes no sense!

Indeed, the law is certainly overpowered in 1.2.1, atm it looks as if it's getting worse.

Perhaps lowering the bullet speed would make it more fair, having a chance to dodge it when it is fired from far away.

I agree, in 1.2.1 it is a tad overpowered.. I use it in close combat as it is.. Now he's added a delay before the shot and you still think it's overpowered?

MisterX .. You talk about the LAW as though it's some sort of a heat seeking device.. It takes skill to hit with it, unless you're close or you're camping.. And it will take skill in the air with a delay, believe me..

It needs skill, for sure. Every weapon needs skill. But for it's power the needed skill isn't enough, since it's not hard enough to use. Whenever I see a LAWer in a cw, he never really hits. I'm not talking about "Super-Pros" now, since there are enough people that are as good or worse than me with other weapons. But still, whenever the guys use LAW, they hit. So the needed skill can't be enough.

the current proneshooting-while-flying is discussable indeed. You can do some very nice moves with it and it looks spectacular etc, but it makes the LAW an air assault one hit killer which imo is not a good idea.

Shooting while crouching is ok
Shooting while proning too
but shooting while proning + flying/falling is not a good idea

Law from 1.2.1 + ground-proneshooting + shortened shooting delay should be fine, but please remove its ability to fire while falling/flying.

What about knife then? The weapon you use? Yeah, lets start moaning about knife, also 'guaranteed kill' from close range at least, and you can jump up and move around and throw it at me from any direction, not to mention you get more than 1 chance with it..Or, if i'm about to steal the flag, and some knifer spawms near me he gets an instant kill.. You see me whining? At least if I use LAW, I have the chance to kill myself if someone steps in front of me or I shoot a wall by accident.. And now, especially with the delay, you can throw so many nades down at me while i'm crouching, and I can either move away and not be able to shoot, or shoot, hopefully kill you , and then die .. Meh..

see my edited post. Itd be fine for me if the delay was shortened ;)

Knife has a very short range, that makes it weak enough. All it needs (imo) is a delay when spawning, so a knifeholder cant immediately throw the knife after spawning.

Yeah well, I hate it when i'm in mid-air combat, close to someone, we both injure each other and need to reload, he pulls out his knife and kills me.. bleh.. What good is a LAW then? I'm just describing knife as he describes LAW..

well, Law has a speed and range bonus instead. Knife is made for close and maybe midcombat, no matter if ground or inair. But you cant throw a knife around half of the map like the LAW in laos, and it isnt that fast too. You also take a lot more risk when you need to get close to someone to knife him, while you can shoot from the distance with the law, plus it does explosion damage and you dont even need to hit directly to kill someone injured.

The knife needs a spawn delay for sure, this its only "unfair" advantage. The LAW has enough advantages already, so the shooting delay shouldnt be compensated by making it an aerial weapon which it just isnt!

I concur with both of you.

In a matter of seconds I can reassuredly say the LAW will prove far too useful and annoying with it's ability to fire mid-air. The start-up time is too small for it to be rendered difficult.

I also think knife is overly useful, despite using it myself (i've got to have some kind of edge out there). No one seems to agree with me though so I just leave it....
If anything, the knife should have the startup time. Although realism is redundant, as a knife thrower myself you have to 'cock' your body into place before the precise release of the knife. But all this is for another topic.

Look, people, just remove the stupid delay and the ability to shoot in the air and add bink. This addresses the various concerns from those who think it is(was) useless (me included) by taking away the delay and those that thought it was too powerful by adding bink.

Problem solved.

Edit:quote:If anything, the knife should have the startup time. Although realism is redundant, as a knife thrower myself you have to 'cock' your body into place before the precise release of the knife. But all this is for another topic.Are you f**king serious (excuse my language)? Even though I very rarly use the knife, I think this would be extremely unfair if inplemented. If you see somebody taking out a knife your initial reaction would be to jump out of the way/do some drastic movement to dodge it. Knifers have already have a hard time as it is.

You can't punish the few that abuse weapons (the knife is abused??) by taking the fun out of them for others. Leave the knife alone.

I think the law was fine in the last beta, maybe it could have a slightly faster reload time to make it a bit more attractive with the delay.

wrong.

1.2.1 law + delay is fine

1.2.1 knife + initial delay would be fine aswell

this would solve the problem with the law being too easy
and it would solve the problem with knife-spawnkilling, like it offen occurs on viet (enemy just grabs the flag, player with knife spawns beside and immediately can kill him with the knife, without any real chance for his opponent)


//EDIT:
= full agreement with serial killer ;o

In my mind it should have bink, just as Hitman mentioned. But maybe a little tiny delay could be positive, too. Maybe, not sure about this though. And for sure the ability to fire it in the air should be removed. For sure nice kills are possible, but we're talking about the balance here, not the "spectactulareness".

no bink please, its already more difficult with the delay.

bink probably wont even have any effect if you shoot the law immidiatly after switching (wich is most likely the case), or would it?

I ment that if bink, then +delay. But as I said, I'm not sure about that. Might be too weak then.

@Hitman
I'm an all-time knifer myself, and I would like it :) Don't mistake it for the law's delay. More like the actual loading time LAW has in 1.2.1, so that it needs you a short time until you can use it after you've spawned.
Concerning this, in my opinion it'd be great if this time would automatically run when you spawned, not only when you change to the weapon (in this case Knife or LAW), so that you don't need to carry the weapon at first after you've spawned. Imho that's useless.

Hmm. Alot of things said too rashly on my part.

The 'new' LAW seems...ok. But I do still see it as being a major source of annoyance and abuse. It's just not cricket, old boy.

And as for knife...I dunno. A startup time like the LAW now has just isn't quite right. A knife is very handy in an emergency, and that'd negate that.
What about slapping a bink of 20 on it? it works pretty well with me vs my bots.

quote:A knife is very handy in an emergency, and that'd negate that.I totally agree.quote:I'm an all-time knifer myself, and I would like it :)I don't understand why on each anybody would want a delay on the knife. As Chakra mentioned, the knife is very handy in emergency situations, such as when both you and your enemy are firing at each other and happen to be standing right next to each other when your ammo runs out; the quickest person to draw their knife and throw, wins. Plus, Soldat is a fast paced game, and all these delays only slow it down. Furthermore, as far as I know, there have been no complaints regarding the knife (Topics, etc) and I haven't seen anybody [in-game] being called a 'knifeatard'.

Don't 'fix' it if it ain't broke.

aue contraire, I witness many a people complain about it. Incidently this is the LAW topic...we should shut up now shouldn't we :|

You started it

oh I so didn't

you so did!

quote:Originally posted by grand_diablowrong.

1.2.1 law + delay is fine

1.2.1 knife + initial delay would be fine aswell

this would solve the problem with the law being too easy
and it would solve the problem with knife-spawnkilling, like it offen occurs on viet (enemy just grabs the flag, player with knife spawns beside and immediately can kill him with the knife, without any real chance for his opponent)


//EDIT:
= full agreement with serial killer ;o



Ok, I agree with that..

quote:player with knife spawns beside and immediately can kill him with the knife, without any real chance for his opponentThat's bullsh*t and you know it. When you respawn you're semi-transparent for almost 2 seconds during which you can't be harmed. Most if not all people use that time to move away from any possible spawn killers and kill them. If you get spawn killed by a knife, you're an idiot.

As I said in IRC, most knife kills are achieved in close range. Adding a delay would just be stupid and adding bink would be unfair. A knifer versus an auto user?.who has the advantage? The Auto user, and the only way a knifer can kill him is by getting close to him, adding bink to the knife would just make it unfair. Getting close to an auto user is the only way you can kill him with a knife. M79 or any other one-shot weapons against a knife are fine and bink would be pointless in those situations. I bet that most of those (Chakra's response to my doubts with regards to the knife's abuse, which still exist) knife kills were achieved against another knifer, a one-shot weapon or a situation where a knife was thrown into a crowded area.

I mean seriously guys, think about this logically. Although it may be realistic, bink/delay on the knife...get real.

Hitman, they meant it the other way round. They meant that when smoene is spawning, they can kill right after they spawn with knife :o .. So lets say you've taken the flag, and your opponent spawns, and just throws a knife at you.. That's so.. .... ..

My bad.

Edit: OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

How would a delay on the knife work? Its not a shooting action, its throwing the weapon away :/ lots of new code for Michal to write.

dunno how hard it is to implement, but its necessary imo. Im already REALLY sick of grabbing the flag on Viet, just to get immediately knifed by a freshly spawning player without having the chance to harm him.

Implement an initial loading time like the law has/had. So players have to switch to the knife and wait a second before it becomes ready.

quote:Originally posted by StalkyImplement an initial loading time like the law has/had. So players have to switch to the knife and wait a second before it becomes ready.


Short and precise, that'd was I wanted to say all the time and would solve it imo

<3 Stalky

That's just the way it was always ment, y'know ;)
I can just quote myself:
quote:Originally posted by MisterX
[...] Concerning this, in my opinion it'd be great if this time would automatically run when you spawned, not only when you change to the weapon (in this case Knife or LAW), so that you don't need to carry the weapon at first after you've spawned. Imho that's useless.