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So what we doing about group-auto use?
Soldat Forums - Misc - Soldat Beta Testing
Chakra`
July 18, 2005, 3:51 pm

We're all well aware that autos, in their masses, apparently pose a mostly impossible advantage over other weapons

Consequently, many players have abandoned clan wars and leagues because of this.


DE's are gonna be toned down a little (according to Michal), the rest are mostly staying the same, and auto damage has been toned down a little bit.


The following percentages are the amount of damage dealt (out of 100%) per shot.

AK74 = 17% per body hit, 21% head - most damage per shot from any auto, yet an accurate MP5 or Steyr will beat it. However AK74 is balanced out with a larger clip and higher damage bullet per bullet.
Steyr = 12% per body hit - 15% per head - 8-10 shots for a kill.
mp5 = 13-4% per body hit 16% head
minimi = 15% body, 17%

The tests were done at about 1/4 of a soldat screen's distance.



Each of these weapons are no more than an equal and close enough to fair challenge on their own. However in groups they're dangerous.

"But uncle Chakky, any two weapons are dangeous in groups, you big stupid."

You're right Billy, this is true. However with automatic weapons, the necessary skill of 'toning your aim' is different for automatic weapons. The stream of bullets guide you to your target. Also, Because accuracy isn't paramount for the sake of getting just a few hits, groups of autos can achieve great amounts with relatively minimal effort, thus showing dominance over most other weapons.



..understand?..



I've tried increasing the movementacc for autos in the weapon editor to around 3-6 so that, when moving, the bullets go everywhere, reducing the amount of hits.

Thats the best I can come up with. So to address this problem, does anyone have any thoughts? any at all? I'm stumped for any other ideas.


(this thread is officially 'Lovely')

grand_diablo
July 18, 2005, 4:52 pm
- another slight weakening of auto damage
- Id prefer some slight recoil instead of the movement acc thingie. Better make ppl correct their aim from time to time rather than having them aim right without hitting.

MisterX
July 18, 2005, 8:08 pm
Plus I'd love seeing Minigun-Boosting somehow nerfed. The great german clan DoG just showed us the stupidest way of winning a cw again.
A recoil would also be my suggestion for automatic weapons. But it would need to increase the longer you shoot.

DeMonIc
July 18, 2005, 8:32 pm
When we started the beta test, my first act was nerfing the minimi with movement screwing it's aim set to 9. That was a tad extreme, so I'll have to go with Chakra: all autos should get 5 or 6, so you have to play them a bit like the barret ( halt when fire to make an accurate shot )

Cons of recoil is that it's cheaply bypassible and it won't stop "veteran sprayers".
The bad side of having self binking and lowering damage is that it would render autos useless in non teamgame standards.

Chakra`
July 18, 2005, 8:38 pm
Also, minigun surf has been drastically 'nerfed' already, MisterX.

MisterX
July 18, 2005, 10:12 pm
Alright, didn't know about that.

Meandor
July 19, 2005, 1:51 am
I don't think all the autos should have high inaccuracy while moving. That'd result into a slown down gameplay, and I'd rather keep them as assault weapons. A solution we haven't tried yet would be reducing the speed by a significant amount (except minimi, that should actually be used while not running). Can someone experiment with that while I fix my pc? (any game or 3d application crashes it :|)

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 1:55 am
I was thinking that earlier. I imagine it could be good.

Autos typically have the advantage from getting the first shot in, seeing as they can lay a muliple amount of bullets your way before you've even lined up. Reducing the speed of some of them might give some players a second to prepare and get a shot in.

grand_diablo
July 19, 2005, 12:03 pm
Recoil!
They would not be in accurate by running, but by the time shooting. So they wont cause you "movement probs" like having to stop, but to readjust your aim. Give it a try with slight recoil pls ;)

DeMonIc
July 19, 2005, 12:06 pm
Dibo, do you even read my posts? :_: Try playing real mode with an ak: you'll see that recoil doesn't stop you in spraying at all, since you can still shoot by shooting bullets one by one (taping the mouse at an immense rate)

grand_diablo
July 19, 2005, 12:31 pm
Well, if you continously tap your mouse button, it makes you less accurate. And yeh, you can shoot into one direction like that, though its still not easy to change it when your enemy is moving -> autos would require more skill. I doubt that with recoil you could spray the way you can do it in 121, i play Realistic myself sometimes and I also use fast tapping to shoot with autos. You cant shoot in the frequency you usually do or you get montrous recoil.

MisterX
July 19, 2005, 2:00 pm
I don't think slowing down every Auto is a good solution. I'm fine with a slow AK, but a slow Steyr.. nah, this would take away all the feel of it. AK: Strong, but slow. Steyr: Less strong, but faster. Should it be like "Steyr: Slow" "AK: Even slower"?

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 2:03 pm
You guys ever play real mode in 1.1.5? ...now 'there' was recoil. The recoil we have today is literally half of what it was back then. You fired a ruger, you could expect your aim to tilt 45 degrees. just 5-6 shots with the aug would send you shooting the sky.

So recoil could work, depending on the strength I suppose. I preferred the old recoil ... *sigh*

DeMonIc
July 19, 2005, 2:12 pm
Maybe we should look for a solution that we can solve with the weapons editor. Let Michal worry about other things, not the weapon balance.

Michal Marcinkowski
July 19, 2005, 2:40 pm
MovementAcc prevents autos from being assault weapons. Reducing the damage prevents them from being useful.
I say not recoil but self-bink as was mentioned in another thread. I'll do it and we can check it out.

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 3:42 pm
Whatever you say, big daddy.

MisterX
July 19, 2005, 3:43 pm
But I guess recoil would be the better solution. As already posted above or somewhere, Autos like AK are so easy at the moment because you can easily adjust your aiming since you clearly see where your bullets go because of a high fire-rate. If you're only binked you can still easily shoot the same way then with tapping the fire-button several times. But at least I guess with a high-enough recoil this would be a lot harder.

Michal Marcinkowski
July 19, 2005, 3:55 pm
Bink works in a different way, tapping won't give you an advantage.

DeMonIc
July 19, 2005, 4:24 pm
I think you just may get another shirt..

Michal Marcinkowski
July 19, 2005, 4:32 pm
I did the self-bink and I'm not satisfied. It won't change much or it will change too much.
Maybe clan wars are just destined to play with their own weapon settings?

Chakra`
July 19, 2005, 4:39 pm
we cannae give oop now cap'n! we've coom soo far!

Michal Marcinkowski
July 19, 2005, 4:42 pm
Lets play todays slaughter sessions with less damage for autos, and we'll see what happens.

N1nj@
July 19, 2005, 4:58 pm
are you joining us?

grand_diablo
July 19, 2005, 5:36 pm
You tried selfbink, now try a slight recoil (maybe 15% of the strength it has in realistic mode) :D

Deleted User
July 19, 2005, 5:44 pm
15% of the realistic mode recoil would do hardly anything. Just like in realistic mode you could fire bursts/tap and it would be even easier.

grand_diablo
July 19, 2005, 8:22 pm
well, it seems easier in realistic mode cause you die faster, but it would have effect in normal mode.

15% was just an estimation, but I wouldnt raise it more than maybe 30 or 40%

Outcast
July 20, 2005, 12:44 am
~30% less damage from auto's taken when shot at by 2 users with autos, ~50% when shot at by 3. ~70% when shot at by 4.
But that would overpower semi autos.
Can't think of a good solution

Deleted User
July 20, 2005, 3:25 pm
Have the recoil last for awhile rather than tapping.

For example, a short, 2-3 second delay while the recoil "simmers down" so you can't tap-fire-tap-fire-tap-fire.

LazehBoi
July 20, 2005, 3:40 pm
How about having the bullets 'poof' away, like the stat gun? About one and a half screens away from the soldat, it disappears with a puff of smoke. It could affect all of the weapons except the Spas, M79, Barret and LAW.

Chakra`
July 20, 2005, 3:44 pm
As nice an idea that is for reducing spray, the real problem is the easy dominance gained from groups of autos. Two autos just cut through people.

Deleted User
July 20, 2005, 3:44 pm
I think LazehBoi's idea is perfect.

MisterX
July 20, 2005, 3:53 pm
Already thought of that, but I agree with Chakra: This would only solve the spraying-problem, but the real problem is the strengh.

grand_diablo
July 20, 2005, 4:28 pm
Nah, I dont like the "poofing" away idea. Its fine the way they are, and most auto bullets dont even go as far as stat guns bullets before they disappear ;)

DeMonIc
July 20, 2005, 4:34 pm
Now we have a bundle of possible solutions, all we need to do is test them.

MisterX
July 20, 2005, 4:39 pm
Yep. It would be really nice if you were able to change (or at first activate) selfbink and recoil for the weapons in the weapons editor, at least in the Beta. This way we wouldn't need to wait for a new release. And still then we wouldn't be able to quickly change them for ourselves for testing.

Cold Fusion
July 20, 2005, 6:07 pm
What I would like to know is how the automatics are different between this version and 1.1.x. The damage appears to be not that much different, what is the main thing that has changed Michal?

grand_diablo
July 20, 2005, 6:37 pm
teh bink.

Cold Fusion
July 20, 2005, 7:50 pm
Well that would have made little difference to my mod, as I have bink removed for most weaps.

What else?

grand_diablo
July 20, 2005, 7:58 pm
that wep damage was once again increased from 120 to 121 + the sheer amount of bullets that can be sprayed precisely without any problems, which is the reason for my recoil suggestion :p