I'm working on Soldat 1.3.1, it will contain only bug fixes I guess. But I'm thinking of the weapons balance, where you guys working on it? It's been some time since the 1.3 release so I think we all have our oppinions... what are they?

Opinions are vast and varied, even among us I imagine, so lets just 'state' our opinions and not question them too harshly.


My opinion is the balance is fairly perfect, though the mp5 is a little too useful. Needs toning down in some way.

LAW is underpowered :(

Goddamnit C_F is in uni :(

MP5 either needs a bit less damage or more self bink.
SPAS needs a bit more time between two shots.
LAW needs a bit a less charge-up time. Just a bit.
Knife needs some time before it can be throwed, so people won't 'whip out and throw' it. They'll have to cool it down first, or something.

I like it as it is now overall, though the problem with instagib weapons being overly popular in publics remains (and I don't mean overpowered, because they aren't) and it is very annoying for some (see threads in gen discussion); same with the "spray" issue - but that is only on maps like viet. I'd suggest to leave it as it is - maybe add a pair of other configs in a patch coming soon for server admins with less powerful barret and m79, and such. Often admins do not bother to edit it at all, or, if they do, a lot will turn the weapons into a bug/spam fest.
The secondaries do need a pair of changes. The knife is more popular than ever because of the delay on the law (which is barely used by now). I suggest the startup time for the law is brought down to 15; the kife stats are ok, but I and others still think that it should have a short delay (1-2 seconds roughly) at spawn.

What about a "scope" for the LAW like the barret has?

And barret should only have 5 shots.

IMHO it's fine. Not much more to say...

The balance is just fine.

Dont change the balance all the time, let the whiners whine for 1 more version.
It r silly to change the balance just when ppl have gotten used to it.

Mebbe leave the balance issues to the next version?

p.s. Dun touch the Barret. Since it is good against sprayers, the sprayers want it nerfed, which just isnt fair ;Q

Nerf the MP5's power (it's simply a "noob-weapon" now. Good strengh, EXTREMELY easy aim). I'd also say Steyr could be a tad weaker, but I'm not that sure about it. Apart from that the only problems I can see are M79 and Barret. They are totally overused, as usual. About the Barret my only idea would be removing it (My, Soldat would be heaven without Barret!), but yea, I know, it's not an option :) I'm not sure about the M79, though. I'd prefer a system that let's you restrict the amount of weapons that can be used. For example that only 30% of a team can chose M79. But again, I'm pretty sure that's not an option and could cause some frustration. But I guess M79 could use a more difficult aiming, since it's pretty easy to use in my opinion. Too easy for it's ability to kill with only 1 shot I guess.
Buut apart from that I'm pretty satisfied I think... for now ;)

[edit]
Mh, I like SK's idea about the Barret. It wouldn't be a major nerf if it had only 5 shots, it's effectivity would still be the same. You'd only have to reload more often, giving it a good disadvantage again. I mean, that's not too much of a nerf for the most criticised weapon in the game, is it?

[edit²]
Forgot about the knife: I'd love a charge-up time similiar to the nades. So the longer you hold the throw-button, the further it'll fly, the more damage it will make. Knife is 1) overused 2) "underskilled" in 1.3.

quote:Originally posted by MisterX
Mh, I like SK's idea about the Barret. It wouldn't be a major nerf if it had only 5 shots, it's effectivity would still be the same. You'd only have to reload more often, giving it a good disadvantage again. I mean, that's not too much of a nerf for the most criticised weapon in the game, is it?


Criticised only by ppl who use autos. Barret and M79 are perfect guns for alt routes, where they are easily pooned with any auto. The barret has been nerfed enough already, leave it aloooooneeee !!!

the balance threads have gone away, i would say that it isn't worth tweaking the balance at all, strictly bug fixes

I think adding a scope on the LAW would balance it out, but yeah .. I was gonna say nerf the mp5 a little too, but thinking about it... steyer / minimi / ak are fine against it.. I've even thought that ruger was still overpowered, even spas.. Basically I think everything is overpowered at certain times.. This could mean we do actually have a good balance ;o) The only thing I find easy to counter in every situation are the Deagles ..

And for the love of god do 'something' with the knife...anything...change it's colour to pink and make the throw sound the sound of a train for all i care, just something to make it less popular. People use it as primaries now :|


edit: uhhh ...hmm. Maybe 'we' should figure out the balance and leave poor michal to his bugs.

(I want sunglasses!)
Seriously, if you find some spare time after bugfixing, id love to have an additional option to tune the looks of my Soldier (new hairstyle, new chain, new hat or sth.). What about a bald Soldier (Vin-Diesel-style)? Would actually just leave out the hair completely, so it should be less work (if not, hit me with a baseball bat please).

- mp5 needs nerfing, as already was mentioned
- a bit more bink and more movement inaccuracy to barret. It should be good against sprayers, but the way its now reminds me a bit of 1.2.0 and 1.1.5. Needs a slight nerf :X
- raise shot intervall for ruger

Everything else seems rather fine.

The knife is a problem? I can't imagine noobs using it accurately? There is a sluush sound when you take out the knife :).

make the slush noise louder, and more watery-sounding. Make all those knifers want to go for a pee then.

The knife is a problem because it's simply too easy to own with.. I mean, people just come real close, throw it in your face, pick it up and repeat.. that doesn't take much skill :(

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiThe knife is a problem? I can't imagine noobs using it accurately? There is a sluush sound when you take out the knife :).

In theory it's hard to use, for sure. But practically most knifekills are mode at a really close distance, for example while rushing by the enemy in ctf. And in such a situation, anyone that knows where the "throw" button is can use it without a problem. As I said, the idea of a nade-like charge-up time for the knife would be a great addition. And I'm saying that as a full-time knifer :o Just compare the knife to the LAW (wich I started using know because of the knife being overused). There are by far more situations in wich the knife is the best choice, and also the easiest one.

I really think the guns are fine... but the Barret. It's just so annoying. It looks to me like the 1.2 Barret. Even I (after having stopped to use the Barret for a looong time) can kill nearly everyone from the air. It's just way to easy to kill ppl with the Barret.

Now go ahead and call me a Whiner!

Only issue I have is with the knife like everyone else. I would just decrease the startup time on the LAW a bit because in 1.2 the secondaries seemed balanced more so than they are now.

If we do actually tweak the knife...perhaps this may be a possible solution...when the knife is in your hands it is a 1 hit kill weapon. When you throw it, it does a certain amount of damage, maybe take away 70-90% of your health based on the grenade hold method. That way it stops people from spawning by knife throwing. It eliminates 1 hit kill throws but still keeps the knife as an effective secondary. It maybe too realistic for some since if you threw a knife at someone...they wouldn't nessesarily be dead in real life.

Keep the knife as it is, and make the LAW like it used to be, you'll see a lot less knives

quote:Originally posted by DeMonIcMP5 either needs a bit less damage or more self bink.
SPAS needs a bit more time between two shots.
LAW needs a bit a less charge-up time. Just a bit.
- raise shot intervall for ruger

:)

I agree with the complaints about knife, too often I see people miss with M79/Barret, then switch to knife, throw it and nade spam. As for the comments about people using it as a primary weapon, there are always people who use secondaries as primaries - people who run around with chainsaw and knife and stab or saw everyone, people who use SOCOM almost exclusively, and I'm quite sure there are some people who even camp just with LAW. And I also agree that MP5 needs a bit more self-bink - it's not spray-ey enough for a close range weapon.

I think the one-hit-kill weapons could use a bit more bink, and the LAW a bit less start-up time.

About the knife being used as a primary: The problem isn't that it can be used as a primary. The problem is, that you're very succesful when doing it. You can't use the Socom very effectivly as a primary, Steyr or AK are always better. You can't use the chainsaw as a primary, it's simply too hard to hit anyone. You also can't use the LAW as a primary without camping, because it takes too much time to sit down and hold the fire button until it fires. But you can be extremely succesful with knife when using it in CTF. Rushing by the enemy and throwing the knife at him in the meantime is nearly no problem. And it can also be taken out and thrown very fast, not comparable to LAW or Socom.

More time between grenades, please. People who tap the grenade key right above other people deserve to be shot, and I don't mean in Soldat. I also agree about the mp5 being a bit too powerful, and I think the knife could be a little slower, or make it so it's not an instant kill. And reduce the charging time of the law. Please.

ooh, good call with the nades guv.

Yes yes.. nade spamming is a menace we seem to have overlooked. Can you do something about that prettyplease?

Options -> lower the amount of nades in your server XD

But umm...seriously I suppose it would be possible to bring back the old grenades? That way it's easier to selfkill and therefore reducing nade spamming (them selfkilling). That's all speculation of course, it might make it even easier to nade spam...who knows.

Well, the selfkilling problem with nades could also be very, very anoying. For example when you're blue on voland, capturing the enemy flag, flying up into the tunnel, throw some nades down - dang, selfkilled. But I think the range in wich nades "spawn" when throwing them should be lowered if possible. You can even stand 1 meter away from someone, throw a nade directly at him, but it'll just fly through his body.
And about the knife, I'm still of the opinion it needs a nade-like charge-up time. It has to be changed in any way.

I'm not sure about the LAW though. I don't want the situation to be like in version 1.2.1 again :( I think LAW is fine if knife gets nerfed.

Ok guys, start laughing.... stop. Ok now my point :D
Chainsaw could get some more power IMHO. I don't know how, but atm it's really useless, because u could also run around and stab with the knife all the time. Maybe increase the player's runningspeed a bit... or maybe some other guys have an idea. I really think it won't be overpowered if it gets a bit stronger.

STOP LAUGHING ALREADY!!! :>

Yep, chainsaw is useless compared to the other weapon. Maybe there even are some situations in wich it can be useful, but you can't tell me it can compete with knife, socom or law. An increased running speed sounds cool. This way it could also serve as some kind of "booster pack". So if you wanna get away with the flag a little faster you can do it this way, but can't have a "real" secondary weapon with you.

would not be logical.

Youd better make it 100 ammo, so you dont need to "reload" so often and you have larger mashing intervals

Chainsaw needs unlimited ammo again, atleast it will get used..

Chainsaw is more of a novelty weapon - it's more challenging and at the same time, more fun. That is why people (or at least I) use it sometimes - not because it has great power, but because it's fun.

Nerf mp5!

Nerf ruger!

Bring deagles little more power

Make knife more deadly.. 1 hit kills (now it wont always kill ppl when you throw at them even tho knife damage is like 215000 and barret is only 495...)

Lower the minigun surfing O.o

Option to throw chainsaw? also larger clip (80/100) and bigger reload would be nice

Delay on law is ok atm maybe you should short the reload time so ppl would start using it again

The ability to throw chainsaw would make knife obsolete, since chainsaw and knife would be about equal at throwing, but chainsaw would have better ultra-close-range and is more fun.

A good chainsaw addition would be if you'd damage while shooting a saw and entering an animation. (Roll, going into prone, backflip.. the majority of fast movement)

Chainsaws were never designed to be used while executing a backflip. Get my point?

I get plenty of kills using chainsaw. It's reload is of relatively no importance, but the chainsaw can otherwise stay the same.


Alot of people I note are using ruger lately. Adopting it after seeing others 'pwn' with it. I actually did some 1v1'ing with Outcast in a ctf enviroment because he wanted to see which auto worked best vs ruger. We discovered that in 3 out of 4 of the time, i'd pwn him. Bink was pretty much non existant. The balance as a whole seems mostly fair, but maybe increase the ruger's bink just a small amount so that it's noticable. It seems to hold a slight superiority otherwise.

About the Ruger, at least I could find out that it seems to extremely useful when used in a whole team. We played a clanwar against 3 other players, all of them used Ruger. Mostly there were 2 of them in one place, and there mostly wasn't a good chance to get through. 2-3 Hits kill, so if both of them shoot at the same time, enemies can be taken out very fast, and also it isn't too difficult. At least I find that Ruger is much better than the Deagles. Even I, calling myself a nearly-full-time-Deagler, it seems I'm always better when using Deagles. For sure it depends on the situation, but I'm talking about both weapons in general now. I don't say Ruger is totally overpowered, but should be nerfed a tiny bit. It's just frustrating playing against a defending Rugerer, his advantage is huge.

Ok let's go.
Knife - Make it so, that when you switch to secondary knife, it's a bit slower to be ready so you can't just throw it, like...two times the speed you can throw it at now when you switch?...it's insta secondary kill right now and that's just bad :(

mp5 - bit less power please? :o
Ruger - ... well, no idea what to do with it but it gets really annoying on times.
Nades - Yes, more delay, not being able to drop 5 in 0.5 seconds, they should be used with through, and you'll be able to spam them fast enough even after it get's slowed a bit, if it gets.

And fix a bug where...whens someone dies, and you are still throwing nades and they hit his body. They explode. But really they don't. You then die when you walk over his corpse because you thought the nades exploded but they're still there, only you can't see them! Real annoying bug :(

Now that I've had a nice cw with 3 rugers one round again, I'm assured that Ruger should be nerfed a bit as well. If you directly compare Ruger with Deagles, Ruger is simply "better" in my opinion. The aiming is easier, you dont have to care about the bullets' flying curve. Also it's very strong with often 2 shots killing. Still you can use it on any distance, even in close distances. And even when I sprayed the rugerer with steyr, nearly all of my shots hit, while he was sprayed he still managed to kill me without a problem. It isn't overpowered so much that you have no chance when fighting it, like a Barret in 1on1. But it's still too strong for the easiness in my opinion, just like the MP5.

I wouldn't say ruger is better than DE's. Numerous times a skillful DE user dominates me and my ruger by simply getting up close and letting rip with some quick precise shots. The results are about half and half for me, DE vs Ruger.

But I definitely agree with the rest there MisterX. The Ruger isn't 'too' much of a problem, but it's enough of a problem that it has an unreasonable edge over other weapons. Still, I don't think it's damage should be changed. The problem is it's bink. At it's current level it has minimal to no effect, speaking as someone who's been sprayed numerous times while using ruger. The bink needs a good 3-6 points more, and from there we'll have to see...

Well, mostly Ruger is a problem if the rugerer just stands back. Being a Deagler myself (not too good atm, though :( ), I get in big trouble if the rugerer doesn't rush forward, but just stands back or even walks backwards, so I can't get close.
But I'm also not saying the damage should be changed. I don't know what exactly. Perhaps the bink, yup.
About the damage I love it the way it's now with the deagles. Most of the time you need 3 shots for killing an enemy, wich is ok compared to most other weapons. Only if you aim well or got luck you can hit in the head twice, so it will kill with only 2 shots. I think that's very good. And it might be similiar with Ruger. So the damage might be very fine atm :)

We have to start making testing sessions soon, because I see it won't be easy this time too :).

I made a combinational weapon mod out of Meandor's post and Grand_Diablo's weapons.ini, and sent them to a trustworthy server owner (Crazy-Horse). In other words, we have a server, we just need to arrang a time to test the stuff :)

Yeah, it definitely won't be easy guv.

Far as I can tell theres two things we're mostly agreed upon. Knife needs toned down, and alot of people agree or like the idea of it having a throw style similar to a grenade; longer you hold, further it goes and more damage it does.

Other than that, I get the impression most of us are agreed that ruger needs a little more bink, and mp5 needs either more self bink or less damage. The rest, as far as I can tell, is just up in the air.

i still think the knife needs to stay the same and the law needs its old self back, it wasnt that bad before the start up time was implemented for it, seriously -_-

mmh before the change, knifers couldnt compete with LAWers, now its kinda the other way round. A slight nerf on the knife and a slight decrease of the LAW delay time might even that out.

Now that I'm using LAW myself, I can say I don't really have problems with it. I don't think it's too weak. It's just not the primary-like weapon you'd expect after having used it in 1.2.1. For example today I "met" the EFC on b2b in his base. I tried to kill him, but I [edit]didn't[/edit] manage to do it. In the meantime their flag was returned. So he flew away from me to his flag and - bang - I killed him with LAW ;) LAW is just not the weapon you choose when being nearly dead. It's more likely a backup weapon you use when the enemy gets out of range - perfect for me in combination with my deagles. So I'm really against removing the delay again. At the moment the knife is the only secondary that can't only be used as a backup weapon. It's easier to kill the enemy than with your usual primary weapon in so many situations. That's not what a secondary weapon should be like!
(I know I'm writing too much again :o )

i didnt haave any problem with law last version, seriously... was it that bad? -_-

quote:Originally posted by DeMonIcGoddamnit C_F is in uni :(


Hi. :)

I concur with the infinitely wise and equally sexy MisterX on the LAW issue.

(hah! Now you have to read it ...and yes it was that bad m00)

Ok, now after having played public a bit again, I'm very sure that something has to be done about the M79 as well. It seems this weapon is one of the easy ones to use, still its the strongest one besides barret. In CTF you can make so incredibly many easy kills with m79, just like with the knife. Not even talking about m79 usage on voland now..

Barret > M79
In my oppinion it's just about the bink, it should be more sensitive so 1ShotKillWeapons would get binked easier and then they would be harder to use.
(de \ ruger should bink as well in my oppinion the 1shotkillweps (dunno if they are))

Here's the combinational weapon mod of this thread: http://llsc.us/members/Demonic/uploads/131.ini

Feel free to test and edit it.

hmm...I concur fully with 'rebinking' the 1 shot weapons, as well as binking-up the ruger.

Problem is, where does the fine divide line between keeping auto-dominance down to acceptable levels?

And thats why we're beta testers. *stands proudly*

The more we bink one shotters and semi autos, the more powerfull automatics will get. Autos are pretty fine now, I'd say every auto would need -2 added to it's self bink for every point of bink we add to the one shotters / semis.

Also, I declare myself Sir Demonic Newton of Weapon balance.

So I'm curious - will you actually implement a nade-like throw for the knife or anything else for nerfing the knife, Michal? It seems many agree that it's definitely needed. But we can't just do it with the weapons.ini ourselves.

My only opinion is that the LAW is just a tad bit underpowered. Many people, including myself, who used to use LAW a lot, don't anymore. It's just not fun. =| It rarely ever gets you any kills.

BLEH?!? Nade-like throw for the knife? I don't think the public'll like that. =| Oh, well. Your call, I suppose.

I don't mean that that's the only possible solution for the knife. I just want to know if Michal intends to change anything about the knife, because we can't.
About the LAW: As I've previously posted, I never used LAW, now I do. I hate how everybody uses the knife, that's why i tried LAW. And i gotta say, it proves really useful in different situations. For sure it's not as useful and easy at the same time as the knife, but yeah, it can be useful in situations when no other weapon can help you :) I don't think LAW is underpowered, only the knife very overpowered.

i don't think i'd mind the knife as much if it wasnt a 1hit kill weapon. maybe 1hit kill for headshot only...and it does 75% damage otherwise?

realistically it makes sense...but then again...soldat is a game.