...about the Barret?
It often totally ruins 1on1 matches, since it's nearly unbeatable (Unless you use it yourself). Generally it's very, very hard fighting a barreter, since you're most often already dead before you could even think about such words as "bink" or "spray". Your only hope is that the barreter doesn't hit. Which rarely happens to good barreters for sure, thanks to the nice and easy aiming it has.
So that's what this game is about? Not that you have to depend on the skill you have. But that you depend on the skill the barreter hopefully doesn't have? Really, that's silly..
I know I'm going to be flamed now, you'll be trying to tell me how easy barreters can be defeated and such. But really, compare the Barret to the other weapons in the game. There's definitely a significant difference. For sure, for sure it's different to the other weapons, I know that. But it really shouldn't be that a single weapons needs less skill than many other weapons but still is stronger than every other weapon in the game.

So, is there really not a single idea on how to "balance" the Barret? I could only think of some kind of delay, only that you'd need to press the fire button, and after a given time the shot fires. After you pressed the button, there'd be no way for you to stop your shot. I don't know how well this would work, but I could imagine it's fair.
So, do you have any ideas? Or should barret just stay in this "ruining" situation?

hmm...yeah barret in 1v1 is pretty much unstopable in most instances. i heard the esl 1v1 competition is full of barreters and that seems to be the easiest way to get on top of the ladder or win the cup.

delay for barreter just like the current law seems less complex. it would probably greatly reduce the number of users...as it did to the law. just speculation though.

or maybe just make barret crouch/prone fire only...? (like a REAL sniper...haha)

or just increase bink to the point where it's absolutely impossible to aim after being shot a couple of times. speculation - increases camping by a ton since assaulting will be nearly impossible.

The latter idea would finally make it be the camper-weapon it shouldn't be. I guess a delay of some kind is the only real solution that's given at the moment. But I also think a delay like I suggested could work. For sure it would make the barret be a lot harder to use. But you'd only have to put enough thinking in each shot. You couldn't just press the button and hope it kills or so. You'd need to think about if the enemy could have enough time to flee behind a wall or so. I'd definitely love it, and it'd really be a "skill weapon" if you ask me.

I don't think there should be a delay before firing, but increasing the delay between shots by a fair margin would definatly limit the weapon in some ways, as well as making it much harder to remain stationary for long with a barret..

My idea wins! Increase delay between fired shots! :D

Why does the ESL 1v1 even have the barret enabled? Isn't that kind of silly? I personally think the barret should be left as it is but for anyone wishing for a serious duel should have it disabled (unless you're both using it).

If you're in a duel, ask your opponent to stop using it. If they refuse, stop playing because they're a [CENSORED].

I thought we were fairly agreed that, along with the m79 and ruger, it would deserve more bink?

The only solution is to disable the barret in a 1v1 game. It takes microseconds to fire a barret from a corner and bink will not stop this. It is the same situation as with the railgun in Quake 2, 3.

Ah yes. The topic of the barret comes up yet again.

We can agree that it is pretty much newbie friendly now, so some tweak should be employed to solve the problem of the massive one-shot hordes. Like mentioned above, a nice solution would be giving one shotters more bink, however I can safely say that experience has proved that bink will only cut back on usage if it is increased massively.

An alternate solution would be a fire-delay on the mentioned weapons. Usage would be cut back for sure, but the real question is, how much would the hard-core weapon fanbase approve that? Would that crush M79 and Barret for good? I'd like to hear a few OS-junkie's opinion about this.

On a slightly different thought, weapon balance could be tweaked by other features, such as being able to speed up your fall by pressing the down button in (mid)air [maybe eating up jet fuel?], so barret and M79 users could be tricked into missing their shots. I understand that this is a patch, so a feature like this would not have a place in it, but I'd thought I'd mention it ;)

Lets not get too ahead of ourselves. We just came out of 1.2.1 ...who used barret back then? I forget but was there more bink for it back then?

Lets also not forget that we're doing a public balance. We can perhaps get a few ideas there once it finally gets started.

I've seen a modded server where the barret does about 50% of its original damage. This will usually bring someone down to about 1/10 of their original health from full, and I think implementing this would be a pretty good idea.

quote:Originally posted by StickyI've seen a modded server where the barret does about 50% of its original damage. This will usually bring someone down to about 1/10 of their original health from full, and I think implementing this would be a pretty good idea.


That's a grea.. oh wait, we already have ruger for "accurate 2 shot gun".

The barret would still be way more effective for sniping with, as it could easily kill someone who's had a tiny amount of health taken away, but it'd be less cheap, for want of a better word. And that's a pretty stupid comment to make about a second "accurate 2 shot gun," because I'm pretty sure there are five weapons for firing many bullets in a short amount of time.

Barret's current role is -and was- to obilerate all foes with one blast. If the mentioned addition were to be implemented, it'd be rendered useless, because the sniper scope and sniping itself only comes into play when someone's camping, even then mostly enemies with full health are the targets. In 90% of the encounters in a game, you'll face opponents with full health, not injured ones, thus the tweak you suggested would simply castrate the barret as we know it, and even your common household butterknife would best it.

More bink: So as I already posted, for me an increase in bink definitely isn't a solution. It helps a little bit perhaps, but it's not a solution. Why? Look, how much time do you have to spray the barreter with bullets, so he gets binked, before he can shoot? Actually you don't have any time, because the Barrets' bullets are simply the fastest ones in the game I guess. So binking might help in several situations, but not in general.

A longer delay between the shots: This might help balancing the Barret in general use. But I want that anyone has a chance against a Barret. Not only that 1 guy HAS to get killed before others can try defeating the Barreter. Even if you could only fire 1 shot each hour, this wouldn't be the way it should be in my opinion.

Disabling Barret in 1v1: If it was that easy, great. But a) the ESL (or more likely it's admins) aren't willing to do this, simply because there are so many Barret-users in the ESL. It's best known that Barret is a "loser-weapon" in 1on1, because it's mostly used when a guy is losing, so he may still win. Still, it will never be disabled in the ESL I guess. Also, this doesn't help anything in matches like ctf 3on3, which I'm more concerned about.

Cutting the Barrets' damage: I guess DeMonIc is right. For sure, combined with Socom for example it could still be very useful. But I doubt many people would stick to the Barret, seeing how Ruger is much more useful then.

@Michal: That's what I ment. I don't mean to be offensive now, but you think the Barret can ruin many games, but there's nothing that could be done, so it just stays the way it is? Please not. I know it's too late to think about if the Barret actually fits in the game and if it should be in, because it already is. But it just can't just stay the way it is. Even if many would hate changes to the barret, we still have to do something, simply for everyone else! Please..


I still stick to my idea. I think it would fit greatly. I know, the comparisons with the real life mostly suck, but just look. Sniper weapons in real life need a whole lot of thinking (crappy sentence, yup). You need to take gravity, wind and everything in account. Each shot has to be thought about. It would be the same with our Barret in Soldat then. It would actually need skill to hit. And if you hit, the enemy would still directly die. In my opinion having the barreters actually think, rather than thinking "Oh, enemy - *click* - dead." could be the right solution.

Hmm.. look, it's a game but still gotta be a bit realistic..
As Mr.X has just said most of the ideas shouldn't be done but we have to do something about the barret.
It's not overpowered only in 1vs1s but also in CTFs games or any others.
In the second you see the barretuser u have no chance beating him if he doesn't miss u..
you can't even bink him without spraying, so we actualy make the barret camp and the other players to spray :|..
There was an idea once of making the barret users running slower, and the M79 slower as well.
(all the heavy weapons) and weapons like MP5 and other weapons like it users could run faster ^_^
It doesn't have to be in this version coz it's not that easy to implement..

Hm... I don't think a difference in running speed would really help much. Actually it would just be another factor we would have to think about, which would only make things more complicated I guess. And also, what is it for that you can run 2 times faster than a barreter if you're dead when you see him anyway?
And especially for the MP5: I dare to say it's by far the easiest weapon in the game, in 1.3 even too strong for that. It doesn't need another advantage than it's incredible easiness, imho.

Add a delay for the barret and m79 :I That even works for those of you who hate boosting, as it would be harder to make a 'quick' get away if you have to wait a second or 2 before you can shoot.

im not sure what bothers me more...a camper...or a barreter that kills me at point blank range after what seems like enough bink to make him shoot backwards.

both are pretty annoying scenarios...i think the easiest way to nerf the weapon in both situations is to make it so it doesnt kill in one hit.

when paired with the socom it's still effective. As it is a lot of people use barret and socom together...now they'll just have to use the socom a little more or not attack solo.

I'd like to test this and then the delay to compare the two.

@ MisterX - I'm agreeing :-P i'd be ok if it was one hit kill only on headshots.

Didn't even think of that it'd make boosting (yes, I hate(!!) it) harder. Wew, that would be great... I still think a delay like I suggested it would work for the Barret, while a delay for the M79 should be like the law one.
I know it doesn't fit the topic, but it seems as if this is a bit unnoticed: In my opinion knife definitely needs a nade-like throw. This would make knife be perfectly balanced compared to Socom and LAW, if you ask me.

@PsylentShadow
As I posted above (Please, people, read my posts! :) ), I also don't think it'd really fit if Barret isn't 1-hit-kill anymore.

[edit]
By the way, thanks people, I'm positivly surprised. I thought I'd get flamed like hell because I'm against the Barret. It's relieving to see that many of you are "on my side" :)

Today the beta forums, tomorrow ... THE WORLD

Making the barret a 2 shot killer would be a grave -and ironic- mistake. (Read a few posts above for detailed reasoning)

So now that we're fiddling with the idea of making the one shotters have a fire delay.. ask a few junkie-user's opinion about it. If we're going to make a harsh change like this, we'd better back it up hard before we start public-testing.

Hm.. but don't you think it could sometimes be the right decision to force something, even if people don't like it in the beginning? Look what it's like with the change of the LAW. The LAW users hated it, everybody thought LAW is useless. But from what I can see, more and more people actually try the new LAW, and agree that it's still very useful, only harder to use. But if we had created a vote, I guess about 70% of the players would've been against a change to the LAW. And I doubt it'd be different with the Barret, since most Barreters think their weapon is fine the way it is, I'm very sure. But from what I can see here, it seems as if nobody of us betatesters thinks that the Barret is fine, not even Michal.

NO WAY..!

I'm absolutly against it, you would just make those weapons useless!
Not delay for the m79.. nor for the barret.

So yeah, I hate the barret, it's just annoying when it kills ya without any chance of beating it, BUT PLEASE, don't make it useless.

Two reasons now to delay them :
1. This would make people camp MORE. (since they wanna shot you before you spray their ass.)
2. This would make barret useless..
and NO, it's not like the LAW... LAW is a SECONDARY weapon, Barret is PRIMARY. we have to do something, it's indeed overpowered, but not delay it, I don't want more campers in the game.

and for the m79?! it can't beat any autogun at tunnels, u wanna make it more useless? are you crazy?!
seriously, I'm a m79 user, but still.. I want people to keep using this weapons since IT'S NOT OVERPOWERED at all. autoguns can bink it before it shots them unlike the barret..

In my oppinion we got to find something else other than the delay, it would just be SUCKs, sry.

You know, a delay doesn't mean it takes 10 seconds to shoot. And no, I actually don't think it would make people camp more. And actually beating a camper would be even easier then, because you could simply shoot the barret as he is lying down before he shoots, he is binked, he doesn't hit, you kill him. And I also don't see any other solution. What else can make you have a chance to kill a barreter before he kills you, instead of a delay+bink or less damage?
And for the M79: So you don't think it's a totally easy rushing weapon? And I believe an automatic weapon user can't beat an M79 user if he is not spraying the tunnels without moving. And we're not talking about the chances of campers now, but people that actually move towards the enemy.
And btw, why do you think that the M79 is actually totally overused? I mean, mostly there are about 8/10 people who use it on our public server that got barret disabled. On other publics it's similiar, only that some people use Barret.

I say we should give it a try. It's all theory now, noone knows exactly how it'd be in practice. And you know, we're not talking about the final version now, but the next beta that is going to be tested. Maybe a delay would make those weapons be unuseful, but if it's like that, I wanna see it.

I think a delay wouldn't be much fun. People would just stop using it and maybe it would be fair but boring.

possibly we should give it a try, but I dont think a delay would be THE solution.

But it seems as if there is exactly no other solution then that could work, imho. And seriously, for me getting "instagibbed" all the time isn't fun either. But especially for the M79 a usual delay like the LAW has wouldn't decrease the fun much I guess. You'd only have to keep the fire button pressed for a given time instead of pressing it once, the result would most likely be the same.
And just btw, Michal, will you implemented something for the knife as suggested, for example the nade-like throwability? That's one of the things I'm most concerened about, since the knife is just so extremely easy for it's strength..

yes, the nade-like throwing of the knife in my opinion, is essential. Agreed?


Otherwise, a more effective bink for both the 1-shots would be beneficial for now. But thats for the public balance experiment to decide i suppose..

Or perhaps, for the barret, we could rewind back to 1.2 into which it was agreed that a higher 'movementacc' value did the trick. ie: when you moved, your aim was screwed. only while still was it perfect, but the weapon still remained effective while moving but only quite up close.

Hm... I'm not sure, but I guess MovementAcc doesn't do the job. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I guess it's just about learning the way the weapon shoots while you move. When you've done that you can still master it and have a nearly perfect aiming. And still, the way barret is now, you only need to stop all movement for about half a second and you have a perfectly accurate aiming.

I'm staying with the idea of an almost 2 shot barret. Let me illustrate this in a theatrical form:

Soldier is running along, as happy as can be
Soldier: I hope I don't get shot by a barret! That'd really spoil my day!
Soldier takes a bullet in the shin
Soldier: Oh no, I've been shot in the leg by a barret. I can still fight on however, despite having the staying power of a paper hanky!
The sound of a socom is heard, and Soldier slumps to the ground
Soldier: Woe is me, I am now dead, despite the fact that the barret has been powered down! At least I have had a good life, and played a part in the balancing of weapons!

i agree with sticky...all you barret instagib ppl...we can keep barret 1 hit kill for headshots. it'd still be a powerful weapon. also it gives people a chance against campers...you can see where they're firing from...it also gives a chance to the camper in the sense that a large portion of your health may be gone so all they have to do is hit you one or two times with another weapon which in reality isn't hard to do at all.

Otherwise... in other games doing a headshot is mostly a tricky thing to do, rather something random that happens from time to time. But in Soldat it's mostly pure luck whether or not you can make a headshot. So I don't think 1-hit-kills should happen if you get a shot in the hit, if the damage is cut down to something below 1-hit-kill,

in my opinion barret shouldnt even have a place in soldat due to the fact that soldat is a '2d fast paced action shooter' no one likes it when people camp with it, or assault with it. it just doesnt fit in the game when its being used as a railgun

the only way barret is ever gonna be balanced is giving waist and above shots to be 1 hit kills and any hits on the legs should get you to like 10% hp

quote:Originally posted by Psyl3ntShad0wi agree with sticky...all you barret instagib ppl...we can keep barret 1 hit kill for headshots. it'd still be a powerful weapon. also it gives people a chance against campers...you can see where they're firing from...it also gives a chance to the camper in the sense that a large portion of your health may be gone so all they have to do is hit you one or two times with another weapon which in reality isn't hard to do at all.

well I agree with him..
If I was barretard there is no way I would've used the barret with delay. Nor the m79..

I just don't like it, it's primary weapon ffs :just make the barret 1shotkillwep when it hits the head or a bit under it, when u hit the legs it doesn't kill :O
that's my oppinion anyway.

I've just got a idea,
The main problems about the barret are :
1. it could kill you before u even start shoting him.
2. Making it harder \ somekind of delay..
3. Not ruin it and make is some camping weapon or useless..

You've been thinking about delaying it.. I think it would just make this weapon useless or camping weapon.

But.. what's about making it delayed in some other way..?
so here's my idea, remember the LAW? while it could shot (from the air as well) ONLY WHILE SITTING or PRONING?
I guess it could be a good way for the barret as well.. What do I mean?
If the barret could only shot while proning or sitting(even from the air so it wouldn't be camping weapon) its user would have to prone in the air in order to kill you.

He can't run while proning all the time right? just until he runs out of jet.
Now, since of the movement accurecy he would have to wait until the character would be proning already and only then shot.
It would take about 1 second or 2, right.. but it would give enough time for his enemy to shot him.. It's the best way of delaying it in my oppinion.. + preventing more camping \ make ppl whine a way more about the delay.

PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME AND THINK ABOUT IT?


And please don't delay the m79.. it would just be.. bah :in the m79 u need to aim for every second and aim a bit forowd to the player u'r shoting, if there was a delay it would be a WAY HARDER.

Don't be a weapon biatch pls, if u don't like weapon that's fine, but nerf it only coz it's OVERPOWERED and not coz it's OVERUSED :\

You don't want the Barret to become a camper weapon yourself, but if it could only be fired, do you really think most people would prone in air, or more likely prone on the ground and camp? I think the latter, because it would be by far easier to just camp then.

And for the M79.. as I said, we're only talking about beta testing here. Anything that would be testing would not be final, so why don't we just give it a try? If we come to the conclusion that it totally sucks, fine. But why don't we even try it? Also I don't want it to be nerfed because it's overused, for sure. I only thought you'd understand WHY it's overused. In my opinion M79 is simply too easy for how strong it is. For sure, shots on longer distances ARE hard. But: How often do you shoot on longer distances? In CTF especially people mostly rush to their oponnents, because they need to get the enemy flag as fast as possible. That's not stupid, that's simply a standard routine, if you don't mean to camp or defend or so. And then in CTF, it's mostly very easy for the M79-user to kill the enemy, because both, the M79-user and his enemy rush towards each other. And then when they're next to each other, killing the enemy with M79 is just easy for everyone, same goes for knife.
And think about the delay, imagine how it'd work. It wouldn't change as much as you think now. You'd still need to aim for every second, only that you'd need to think a little more in advance.
My last point is that I can't see how it would make Barret and M79 be useless. As I already posted, we're not talking about a delay of 10 seconds here. We'd just need to find the right delay-time in order to not make it useless, but only to nerf it. It's the same with the LAW. Everything thinks it's useless now, but how many of those people have actually tried it? I've tried it and I'm also using it as my favorite secondary weapon now, and it's really not useless. The only problem is that knife is so extremely easy and strong, so that knife is still by far better. Still, the LAW is very useful, especially when the knife finally gets nerfed.

Bugs, think about it. I'm not one of those [CENSORED]s that want to ruin every weapon they get annoyed about. I also want to balancethose weapons. I understand you're very concerned about your favorite weapon and don't want it to be ruined. I really want this game to be balanced for everyone, and not so it's the most fun for only me.

quote:Originally posted by StickyI'm staying with the idea of an almost 2 shot barret. Let me illustrate this in a theatrical form:

Soldier is running along, as happy as can be
Soldier: I hope I don't get shot by a barret! That'd really spoil my day!
Soldier takes a bullet in the shin
Soldier: Oh no, I've been shot in the leg by a barret. I can still fight on however, despite having the staying power of a paper hanky!
The sound of a socom is heard, and Soldier slumps to the ground
Soldier: Woe is me, I am now dead, despite the fact that the barret has been powered down! At least I have had a good life, and played a part in the balancing of weapons!


With all due respect, you should really lay off the cocaine.


If the barret would be a one shotter only upon headshot, it'd be rendered worse than the ruger, because headshots rely on luck, not skill. And no, Barret+socom wouldn't be a powerfull combo, because there is already Ruger+socom which works like the event you described in the post I quoted, yet it is not used often, simply because using an Auto or just ruger is better. Why? Because you loose a lot of time and firepower on weapon switch.


To Bugs suggestion:

A successfull barreter is strong because he can move smoothly and get into good shooting positions fast and effectively. When he reaches the position, he releases his movement keys, gaining accuracy, and he shoots the target. That takes around one second to achieve, which is too fast.

If your suggestion would be added, the barreter would have to go higher, get into prone, then release movement keys and then shoot. That'd take around three or four seconds, which is too slow.

If the barret had a warm up time of say, 0.2 seconds, the described barret-kill motion would take around 1.5-2 seconds to do, which is just right.

I haven't been backing up the delay as much as losing isntagib status, so I guess I'll spill my thoughts on that.

I wouldn't mind adding a delay to the barret. If the number of barret users goes down to the current law users I'd actually be pretty happy. I would rather see newbies picking up weapons that arent instagib when they first start and then moving on to the barret, m79, law, and knife. As discussed, if we give the delay to the barret the m79 needs a delay(shorter time than the barret)...that is without a doubt. The knife will obviously need some nerf if this happens even more so than it does now.

As for Ruger + Socom vs Barret + Socom if instagib status is removed...

Barret Pros - scope, more damage, possible instagib

Ruger Pros - 3 more bullets you can fire in rapid succession if you miss.

It doesn't render the barret useless entirely.

Well.. what could I say? let's give it a try.. even though I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for the m79, nor for the barret.. but as u wish guys, we could also ask in the public forums..