( search forums )
Aren't we taking one step too far?
Soldat Forums - Misc - Soldat Beta Testing
Bugs Revenge
November 9, 2005, 3:41 am
I'm talking about the weapon ballance, as I see it MOST of the public are against any changes in the weapons.
It just means we've done pretty good job at our last ballace settings..
so yeah, we would nerf every weapon over again and there would be those whines again and they would stop, new version etc. etc.
Now, why wouldn't we just tweak A BIT the "too overpowered" weapons?
Since indeed most of the weapons request skills, and if you have those skills you can indeed pwn with that gun.

Anyway, my point is why wouldn't we just change a bit the Mp5 which was a bit overpowered+overused and nerf a BIT.
the AK, minimi, and ruger if u realy want to but again, I'm talking only about +-3 dmg nothing more than that.
the barret is another factor which is problematic as well but we have nothing much to do about it, maybe option to remove its scope?
it would reduce camping.

that's it all in all, I just do what the "public" says.. and they all against any changes, but still there r some neccesary like the mp5 ^_^

ANYWAY, We had better focus on the beta testing and not the weapon ballance since it's fine atm.
I will do the tweaking as on the public forum, will bring it here for approval and that's it for the weapon ballance, now it's only about TESTING.

N1nj@
November 9, 2005, 4:22 am
well in the 131 patch, michal tweaked some of the weapons a bit, and it was aite when I was playing with bots...

LazehBoi
November 9, 2005, 5:03 am
except for the barret. 100 ammo!? No thanks.

grand_diablo
November 9, 2005, 11:09 am
which was an accident :P

I agree actually. There is no need for a whole turnaround in balancing. Slight adjustements on the current autos and semiautos should be done, only the 1 hit killers (M79, bawwet) need some more intensive care.

MisterX
November 9, 2005, 12:53 pm
Well, I always agreed to that. Concerning the weapons 1-6+9+10 the balance is really good in my opinion. It really only needs some tweaks. A little less damage, a little less fast, things like that. But for M79, Barret and especially the knife I'm very sure there has to be more.

Michal Marcinkowski
November 9, 2005, 5:09 pm
I also agree that we don't need to change anything dramatically. I think the public balance testing should give results for making good tweaks, not rebalance.

DragonSlayer
November 11, 2005, 9:59 pm
Woo, first post in the beta testing forum. :p

Anyway, I agree. I think 1.3's weapon balance is already very good, and I find it very balanced as well. Like you said, the game really only needs minor balancing now. Here's what I think:

Mp5: Nerf mp5's damage a bit, but not much. Mp5 isn't really all that bad when one player uses it, but going against many of these (especially when they are used for spraying) is pretty annoying.

Ruger: I think it's the most overpowered weapon at the moment. If you compare it to other semi-autos, it's clearly better than deagles and spas. After 1.3 came out, almost no one uses deagles. Well, I don't know about pubs but I mean clan wars and gather. I think that ruger should have a bit less damage so that it will only kill with 2 headshots (assuming the other player has full health) or 1 headshot and 1 torso shot. That or buff Deagles a bit. Also, I think Ruger could still use slightly longer reload time. Ruger is still used as spraying gun, and it is pretty annoying. If you add some reload time, you have to think twice before spraying.

Deagles: Like mentioned above, buff them a bit. Add some damage. Reload is fine in my opinion.

Spas: could have a bit more kickback in my opinion, and very slight damage buff.

Barret: It's hard to say what to do with Barret. It can be very annoying "noob" weapon but it's also true that a lot of skilled players use it and I know it's not the easiest weapon to use when you are going for the shots which actually need skill. One thing about Barret. I think it's still too good as an assault rifle. You see players just charging in and killing others with Barret. I think that when you are moving, it should be harder to hit than it's now. Make the player prone or duck and then shoot. It's a sniper rifle, and that's how it should be used in my opinion. As for campers... well, I don't really have solution for that. Like I said, it's hard to say what to do with Barret. You could nerf it in some ways so noobs couldn't abuse it but if you did that, it would be seriously underpowered in the hands of a skilled player.

Minimi: Make it less powerful.

Rest of the weapons are fine in my opinion.

wormdundee
November 12, 2005, 12:18 am
Well, the ruger is a difficult weapon to change to make it more balanced.

When compared to the other semi-autos, I don't think its clearly better than them. Deagles are more powerful right? And the Spas is deadly in close ranges. I know the Ruger is probably slightly better than them, which could be fixed by changing the self-bink on it?

However, I completely disagree with you saying it's the most overpowered weapon in the game right now. I hardly see anyone using it on the servers I frequent (the U13's sometimes, a lot of times just random DM's and CTF's). If you put the reload speed longer it would make the Ruger extremely difficult to use against auto users. Already it is almost definite that the rugerer will lose in a battle against an MP5 or AK, maybe even a Minimi.

I do agree that the damage could be put down enough so that it takes 3 body hits to kill with it. Unless it already does that, which was the impression that I had.


Another way of fixing it would be increasing the Ruger's reload speed but then decreasing the damage of several of the more annoying auto guns (the ones I mentioned before).



In response to the actual thread topic. Yeh, if all the weapons were just tweaked a bit, such as the things mentioned in mine and Dragon's post they should be fine. Then do something with the Barrett and M79. I'm trying to think of something for those weapons, but besides removing the scope I don't really know what you could for the Barrett. However, one thing that has always annoyed me with the M79 is that someone can shoot it absolutely point blank at you, and you will die, but they will only be damaged. I want them to die since they are just as close to the explosion as the person getting shot at.

DragonSlayer
November 12, 2005, 1:07 am
quote:Deagles are more powerful right?
Do you mean more powerful in 1.3.1d than in 1.3 or more powerful in 1.3 than in 1.2.1? Because they were nerfed in 1.3. I haven't had the time to play 1.3.1d yet.

As for ruger, I think your idea could work. One thing why ruger seems pretty overpowered to me is not really that it kills so fast but that it's so easy to hit with it. And I'm not sure about how the 3 body hits thing goes, but that's the way it should be. By the way, a lot of people do use ruger. I hardly play on public servers so I don't know about them. But in gather, it's the most used primary right after one-hits.

Mp5's and Minimi's damages should be nerfed for sure. I don't think it's really necessary for Ak but a minor downgrade is a possibility.

For the Barret, I kind of like having similar "hold the button" feature as the law has. Don't make it too long and combine it with more inaccurate aim while moving and I think Barret will become a rather balanced weapon. It'll be harder to use and it can't be the ultimate assault rifle, nor extremely annoying weapon for camping.

I don't think Barret is the main issue with balancing, though. I think it's the spray. It's better than in 1.2.1 but it's still a major problem. My suggestion is that the further you shoot, the less damage your bullets make. Barret is an exception. This way you'll prevent spray from being extremely annoying tactic (losing 50-70% of your health before even seeing your opponent is not fun) but it is still effective counter-camping tactic.

I think Soldat already has something like this but it has to be more noticeable. Just like with knife, bullet's speed and air time should affect the damage. I'm not saying that that the damage has to be completely removed when shooting far but at least spray should do noticeably less damage. This will add much more skill in Soldat and actually being GOOD with weapons and having skill will show. I hope others will agree on this one. The amount of spray and sprayers must be reduced. :(

Bugs Revenge
November 12, 2005, 1:07 am
ok so first of all welcome :)

the second thinggy is the weapon ballance, right.. do you think we should keep on the public settings?
or brining it back to our hands while we'r active now?
I could make some new weapon ballance as u want.. (again, tread about each weapon, etc.)

DragonSlayer
November 12, 2005, 1:11 am
I think that now that we got new active beta testers, including myself, we should spend a few days (3-4 at least) talking about the balance AND spraying. Then we'll see what to do. Anyway, read my opinions about balance and spraying in the above posts. :p

Meandor
November 12, 2005, 1:47 pm
The damage of the desert eagles shouldn't be changed because it is either unnoticeable, or it makes them kill with one (two) bullets less, and this was a problem in the lasty version.
I like your barret solution DS. Problem is that currently speed determines damage AND trajectory. I go try something with very low damage and high speed, but I don't think it'll work.
edit -
[Barret M82A1]
Damage=62
FireInterval=240
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=30
Speed=2650
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=85
MovementAcc=6

This doesn't always kill when crouched, should take two shots from proned. Still has to be tested properly, as high speed = buggy.
Wrong thread though (wasn't this about not changing too much?) :>

DragonSlayer
November 12, 2005, 2:22 pm
The thing is that barret SHOULD kill with a single hit when you are crouching or proning. Maybe it's possible to make it so that the barret shoots faster if you are proning or crouching? And if you shoot it in speed, either make it a bit slower so it doesn't kill as easily or make it more inaccurate when moving. But since Barret camping is another serious issue we have to solve, I'm starting to be in favor of making the player to hold the button for a short time when shooting (like LAW).

Either that or then we could make it so it doesn't kill with a single hit when you crouch or prone. That would reduce camping so much, and I kind of like the idea. But what about shooting when moving? And if it was done this way, I don't think it would be "a sniper rifle" anymore. I like the above solution more.

We have to keep in mind that even though Barret can be extremely annoying weapon, we can't nerf it too much or it would be underpowered. That's why my suggestions could be a bit too much. It would be great if we could find a solution to both problems Barret has. One, it's too easy to camp with and two, it is used as an assault rifle, not as a sniper rifle. And I know that statement sounds funny, it's the two things are contradicting each other. So, what we have to do is find a solution so it's not too good for camping but it doesn't stop being a sniper rifle. And keep it good enough so it won't become underpowered.

Also, let me quote what I said earlier, because I want to stress it:

quote:I think Soldat already has something like this but it has to be more noticeable. Just like with knife, bullet's speed and air time should affect the damage. I'm not saying that that the damage has to be completely removed when shooting far but at least spray should do noticeably less damage. This will add much more skill in Soldat and actually being GOOD with weapons and having skill will show. I hope others will agree on this one. The amount of spray and sprayers must be reduced. :(

Bugs Revenge
November 12, 2005, 3:09 pm
Meandor, I've been thinking about an other way to nerf the barret + the spraying..

What's about making it A WAY LOWER speed? but increasing its damage?
Think about it, as slower as it is, the lower damage, the bullet's speed is being decreased in the middle of the way so the spray would be less noticeable (less power for it) and also the barret wouldn't kill to 2 screens above.
What do you think about this one?

MisterX
November 12, 2005, 7:25 pm
This again wouldn't do anything against the problem we have with Barret: When you encounter a barreter you don't have a chance anymore, because you're already dead.

Bugs Revenge
November 13, 2005, 4:36 am
that's why we have to remove its scope :X

Meandor
November 13, 2005, 8:25 pm
Reducing speed would make the bullet fall too fast.

Social Poison
November 19, 2005, 8:50 pm
quote:Originally posted by Bugs Revengethat's why we have to remove its scope :X


How often to you honestly get killed by campers? :X

FliesLikeABrick
November 19, 2005, 10:56 pm
In my opinion, the public weapon balance showed us some minor changes that should be made (which were reflected in the mod that chakra made before he left) and otherwise it has served its purpose. idk if it is worth continuing with it, since it seems to have lost its hype and there are as many people who suggest changes as those who dont (if not more who don't)

Bugs Revenge
November 20, 2005, 12:39 am
quote:Originally posted by Social Poisonquote:Originally posted by Bugs Revengethat's why we have to remove its scope :X


How often to you honestly get killed by campers? :X

Hmm, actualy too much..
I ain't talking about publics but about Gathers... 90% of the people there are indeed skilled..
So the ones who camps with barret could make you go nuts and ruin the whole gather :X

Social Poison
November 21, 2005, 9:51 pm
personally I think the weapon balance is pretty good. I'd like to see the AUG's spray turned down a bit (so it's more accurate)... but aside from that...

reckon
November 22, 2005, 6:50 pm
The ruger is shown with a scope, so lets use it.
How about giving it a limited scope, about a third of the length for the barrets scope?

Chakra`
November 22, 2005, 8:47 pm
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAARRRRGGHHH!!


I keep popping around on this forum now and then, still being able to view the beta section, and all I see from you guys is your imaginative ideas towards balance. Thats great. Fantastic. Real nice stuff.
Because, the various nuances in Soldat were built on great ideas just like the ones you guys have shown us today!


So, like, now what? .......Do something!! It takes more than pitching a few ideas to get crap like the balance finished.

You've got to get together, get a beta server, and co-operate on a balance to test on using and see whether the majority of you approve of it's differences. Alternatively, make it a public-but-passworded server in the public balance forum, and then just use it among yourself to test and have the public fill up empty slots to provide you with a larger gaming experience to judge things on.

How do you go about that? Simple.

Step 1: Throw in a few ideas you've got of your own and from the public balance forum.
Step 2: Have one guy look at all your suggestions, maybe discuss them with you, then make the appropriate changes into a weapons.ini file.
Step 3: [CENSORED]ing test it.
Step 4: repeat 1 2 and 3.
...add infinity until universal contentment is achieved. Thats how we did it in 1.3, and thats how you filthy pigs will.


GET TO WORK! *whips*
[IMAGE]


DragonSlayer
November 22, 2005, 10:52 pm
There's a lot of stuff we CAN'T test, especially related to barret. I'm pretty sure everyone has agreed on general stuff like decreasing mp5's power and changing ruger's fire interval so you can't shoot as fast. The delay for barret could be nice but what about the other suggestions? The problem is that we beta testers can't test all our suggestions. Same goes for knife and M79. This is why I wrote the long topic about balancing options.

Chakra`
November 22, 2005, 11:49 pm
Thats nonsense guv.

You're agreed that mp5 needs a reduction in power. How?
Reduce it's speed? it's actual damage? it's rate of fire? it's reload? a combination?

Who's agreed to a larger fire interval on ruger? Last I checked some say a more significant bink, more movementacc, longer reloads, and then some even say leave it alone.

Barret's 'delay' also needs testing, as well as actual approval. Something may be balanced but consequently no one could like it.

These and much more are the things you need to work out guv. And the only way to work it out, as far as I know, is how I suggested.

DragonSlayer
November 23, 2005, 12:20 am
Well, I suggest that we should put up some 3v3 / 4v4 games daily or at least 2-3 times a week and test this stuff out with other beta testers. Last time we did it we got like 10-14 players and it was just one big mess and I couldn't draw any conclusions at all. I'm up to playing a game like this everyday and having a progress thread about suggestions and so on. If no one has anything against this idea, I could make the topic and we could arrange some time when we could play. Like... 4PM-6PM GMT? Ideas?