I just came up with an idea.

Now we have Polyworks, Muti-texture, lighting effect all these new mapping technics and they can give a map a better looking. But take a look at the default maps, none of them have applied these technics. I think default maps should have a higher standard than most custom maps. How about remake all the default maps with these technics? This would brings Soldat a whole new feeling and maybe even a new "era".

Another option is to completely replace the default maps with new maps that have a higher standard and made with those new technics.

This might also bring back players that have lost their interest to Soldat. :D

What do you think?

EDIT:
And hello everyone. :>

I like the current default maps ;Q

However I wouldn't mind adding additional maps. Using the same time we could be remaking old maps to make new maps seems like a better use of time.

Well, Voland is already remade *runs*

I think that the default maps should be updated with PolyWorks. Every default map should at least be compiled with PW since it will eliminate any random bouncy polygons. However, there will still be some poly bugs due to bad poly placement so these could also be fixed up.

As for changing looks, I'm not sure about it, but if it was decided on then I'm sure I could help out.

And of course, I will always support adding more maps :]

Yes, the old maps need serious remaking, and new ones need to be added.

I can do some remakes and a few new maps if it's needed.

Hmm...The beta team is full of great mappers.

Most custom maps are only made and released, but few are actually tested out. Since we have a whole group of beta testers, we could produce some truly fun new maps.

Yes, I completely agree with this. I'd like to help in the make/remake of any soldat maps. I had this same idea, but I didn't think i'd be able to do it alone. With a whole group of people to help, I think we could really pull this off.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea. I suppose that it wouldn't hurt if we didn't actually change the maps, but more like fix their bouncy polys and upgrade their display.

By the way, welcome everyone. Glad to have you on the team. :O

quote:"These maps I would really like to add:
ctf_blizzard
ctf_kryptonia
desertwind
htf_rubik
ctf_mao
ctf_lanubya
ctf_snakebite
ctf_maya2

These maps I would like to playtest more:
ctf_ash?
htf_dusk ?
htf_muygen?"


These are all the maps that Michal said he would like to add, just so you newcomers know
Mmm fixing the buggy polys would be good, but bouncy polygons are fun sometimes ;), as for the looks I wouldn't be against improving some of the maps looks as long as teh layout was not altered

I think maps are the least of our problem right now, let's just get this weapon balance out of the way first, we can always add/remake maps anytime.

Please don't mess with the original maps :(
I really don't like when you take a classic and try to "improve" it by adding shading etc.
It just loses its feeling.

I have to say that I agree with b00sta on this one, I had a feeling that something was wrong whne b2b got changed. However Compiling them with polyworks ot remove bouncy polygons wouldnt be a to bad Idea.

I suggested this on irc already as well.

Anyway, this would be great if 2-3 mappers with SAME STYLE could do this. There's lots of default maps so it will take work. They should still be very clean and playable though. But yeah, graphical update would be nice.

quote:Originally posted by b00stAPlease don't mess with the original maps :(
I really don't like when you take a classic and try to "improve" it by adding shading etc.
It just loses its feeling.

This may be a good idea; it's about time Soldat got a visual upgrade. We don't necessarily have to do it, but why not just take a couple of commonly played maps and have a few people retouch them? We play a couple of rounds on them and see whether or not it's any better. However, there should defiantly not be any new polygons or moving any old ones. Just shading and bug fixing.

If anyone knows, think of how Valva changed the CS maps from 1.6 to source. Mostly, the maps remained largely unaffected but some minor changes were also made to improve gameplay (Ex. large arch in front of T spawn on de_dust2). T

This is what I imagine the remakes to be, not messing with the gameplay so much, but just to make them look better. Don't worry, all you purists will still keep your barret-whoring, tunnel spraying, base camping b2b, just now you can be distracted by all the pretty visuals.

Hmm, what's about changing the unpopular maps? it could make them more popular..?
Let the classics B2b, Laos and Voland be :)
but still shading and bug fixing could be nice :D

The only unpopular ones I can think of would be ctf_death and lagrange. The rest seem to be used frequently.

But I think updating the unpopular ones is a great idea.

I wouldn't mind making some unused ones look better as long as they aren't unplayable on slower computers.

i remember we tried this last session with remaking voland...but voland still bothers me...nade spamming the spawns is so lame...so perhaps put spawns outside that little area and maybe making the entrance/exit to the base a little bigger so you can dodge nades that are thrown in that choke point. all too frequently you get spawned or camped in that map...and i think a few minor changes woulud make it a bit more enjoyable...just not so many changes like xoland.

i would welcome changes to death but i dont exactly know what to do with that map without...only think i can think of is making a top route so people don't camp at their bases.

the bouncy polys in the middle of b2b where you can cut low bother me...so it would be nice if that got fixed.

how is kampf? i like it, but ive seen several complaints...

quote:Originally posted by VijchtidoodahThe only unpopular ones I can think of would be ctf_death and lagrange. The rest seem to be used frequently.

But I think updating the unpopular ones is a great idea.


Touch Lagrange and die >:|
Its the only map right now with no jets so it tends to be more strategic, and I also think it is one of the better looking maps in the game> :)

Indeed, I love teh Lagrange.

And on that note, I wouldn't want the original maps to be changed/updated. That does not mean, however, that I would be opposed to seeing a few new maps added. On the contrary, a few more maps available would be a good thing imo, especially now they we've had time to see which htf maps are (for the most part) good/bad. Yet, as has been mentioned, maps are a somewhat trivial matter that can be dealt with at a later date. Aside from a shameless plug for htf_Muygen, which I'm going to update (^_^), I'm for a "visdual upgrade", as was aptly coined by Hitman and others.

In my opinion all the current maps should be kept. But I do believe that some aspects of certain maps should be fixed, things like badly placed polygons, nothing major like changing the whole gameplay and the looks of the map.
One certain map which I believe this strongly emphasises on is ctf_death, because personally, I am fed up with Idiots blasting their way up to the top of the map and having the potential to annoy other players in the server, who want to play seriously.

The addition of a few maps would be a very good idea aswell. But, it would be much greatly appreciated if more maps under the infiltration or hold the flag game mode were added to the map list, that way it would give players more reason to play game modes other than CTF or DM.

Totally remaking maps doesn't work. We had ctf_Xoland which is better in my oppinion ;), but the old one is the old one. Even changing visual aspect might not be good. However I would like to see "refreshing". Fixing polybugs, fixing bad joints, bad colors, floating sceneries and stuff like that. I'm not a polyworks expert so if you guys could do it I will gladly replace an old map with a refreshed one.

@jap_man

ctf_Death needs gameplay improvement (maybe the way death2 went with the upper tunnel). I agree on the other maps though, fixing should be enough there.

IMO ctf_Dropdown also needs a a gameplay update, and some looks updating. It's ugly and nobody plays it. I'll do the remake since I did the original one too, if you agree MM.

@g_d
An upper route shouldn't be added to ctf_death. Flag and spawnpoints need to be moved and some changes in the middle, but not changing the fundamental design.

Youd have to change the fundamental design when you try to move the flagspawn aswell. Death2 played well, though it was buggy and still had the flagspawn problem. I now enhanced Death with an upper route, closed the former flag spawn area and moved it to the other side. So the gameplay should be fast forward, whether you go the top or lower route. The upper part is not waypointed by now.

We might give it a try.

Download
http://www.denacke.net/Dibo/maps/ctf_Death20.PMS

Overview
[IMAGE]

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiTotally remaking maps doesn't work. We had ctf_Xoland which is better in my oppinion ;), but the old one is the old one. Even changing visual aspect might not be good. However I would like to see "refreshing". Fixing polybugs, fixing bad joints, bad colors, floating sceneries and stuff like that. I'm not a polyworks expert so if you guys could do it I will gladly replace an old map with a refreshed one.

Yeah, I agree with this. Keep the old maps as the old maps and just improve them. The gameplay MUST remain same. I think changing visual aspect is okay as long as it's just improving graphics, not totally overdoing the visual look. If some good map maker here (I'm watching at you grand diablo :o) could do this with one default map like Laos, we could see how it looks. Making it visually more appealing but keeping the old look and playability. Keep it clear and don't add any unnecessary extra scenery or objects. I think then it should be fine.

EDIT: g_d, that Death looks good. I'm not sure is the new flag location better though. We should try it out next weekend. Is it alright if I test it with my friends?

no one has any thoughts on voland? :( I still think adding spawn points outside the current spawning area would decrease the spawn camping/laming. One spawn on the top route as someone always sits up there and throws grenades down, putting a spawn up there should decrease that a bit or at least give you somewhat of an easier chance of killing him. Then a spawn outside the flag a bit, but not as far as the place where grenades spawn. This would be good in helping combat people throwing a million grenades into the main spawn. I think it would make voland less lame. As it is...the enemy can get like 2 caps if they keep you stuck in your base, since the only route is the top route...and if you take it, you have no chance of getting to the flagger in time since it's such a detour.

outside base spawns for voland please!

death2 looks promising.

I think that adding the spawn points outside would make it too hard to cap and it would be even more chaotic. I say expand the hole like in Xoland.

or just take Xoland instead (yeah, I know it failed the internal voting cause of its different look, but it should be the gameplay that matters) :P

or I might do some more editing on the fixed version of Voland, although its better playable when the expanded holes have rounded entrances, yet Voland is kinda spiky ^_^

Here's what I made in half an hour. Just the basic polygons and colours. Changed the spawns so you can't camp in them and made upper and down route a bit better. This is much better than the original dropdown, and someone might actually play it. Can we test it in a slaughter session sometime, when I make playable version?

[IMAGE]

Feedback please.

The thing i didnt like bout Dropdown was the "free space" in the middle, which made it an el dorado for blind spraying/barretarding. The problem is worse on this version of the map, although I do like your spawnpoint solution.

Actually, there's a lot less free space in the middle in this map.. The middle route is narrower. Maybe i'll add a bullet-blocking column on the middle to stop spraying and sniping across the map.

quote:Originally posted by BoxoHere's what I made in half an hour. Just the basic polygons and colours. Changed the spawns so you can't camp in them and made upper and down route a bit better. This is much better than the original dropdown, and someone might actually play it. Can we test it in a slaughter session sometime, when I make playable version?

[IMAGE]

Feedback please.

hmm I like this version a lot.
The old one was fun, but the appearance was depressing to me :p

The left area above the flag looks very nice and sculpted, but on the right it's a little dull, maybe change that.

solution to blind spraying in dropdown = line of coliders in the middle?

That would cause problems with people trying to fight in the middle.

Heh, I'm glad to see someone actually start to remaking maps :D.

Anyway, Soldat really has to 'refresh'. We're playing the same maps with same lookings over and over, it's getting boring.

@Vij
What kind of problems? It'd be different, but it'd work.

ctf_Dropdown2:
[IMAGE]

Here it is. Let's test it in a session sometime.
DL: http://llsc.us/members/Boxo/uploads/ctf_dd2b.zip

me likeh *downloads*

defnitly a whole lot better, good job!~

:o Beautiful! Gotta get my hands on that. Wouldn't mind testing it out either if there's any room for meh.

quote:Originally posted by Boxo@Vij
What kind of problems? It'd be different, but it'd work.


The way you have it now looks percfect (I have yet to test it). I was talking about how wierd it would be to try to fight in the middle, but have your bullets stopped by some invisible force for no reason.

boxo, are you gonna add the waypoints to it?

Nice Boxo. I think it could use a few more objects and some final touches but the layout looks very good, definitely better than the current dropdown. We should try it out this weekend.

I also like the remake much more but you should add some stat guns under the 2 flag spawns :)

Edit
Bah I didn't see the download link :( Leave me alone xD

quote:Originally posted by Cookie.I also like the remake much more but you should add some stat guns under the 2 flag spawns :)

Silleh Cookeh did not download it :I
Statguns are there, hehe I look foreward to using those :>

Gj Boxo and Grand Diablo, I realy like your new Death, we gotta check if it's playable as well..

Soo.. we're going to try these new maps on the coming weekend?

for sure, hopefully this team..we can have an actual testing.

im in

lets try to find a fix date as early as we can now...
would be the best imho

Alright since no one is doing this i'll do it.

09:00:00 p.m. Saturday November 26, 2005 (EST)

Server: Selfkill Beta - 84.254.75.8:24374
http://www.soldatforums.com/topic.asp?topic_id=28765&whichpage=4

:( That's Thanksgiving weekend here in the States...I can't make it.

while we're on the topic of making things more visually appealing, perhaps an upgrade from the current gostek to the Soldat Evo gostek?

http://www.soldatforums.com/topic.asp?topic_id=27484

quote:Originally posted by Psyl3ntShad0wwhile we're on the topic of making things more visually appealing, perhaps an upgrade from the current gostek to the Soldat Evo gostek?

http://www.soldatforums.com/topic.asp?topic_id=27484


Yea that one is alot nicer than the current one imo.

We could also remake the weapons to compliment any updates to maps and gosteks. There are already many mods that are simply graphical improvments over the original weapons. I don't see why we couldn't suprise the unsuspecting player with a new set of guns in the next update.

Im for using the Soldat Evo Gosteks and weapon gfx, but leave the weapon names as they are

Id vote for papasurfs Neo-Soldat for a new default look.
But if you'd rather keep it classic with a touch of new, go with the Soldat Evo mod then.

gostek from soldat evo
and weapons from soldat neo...although a redone knife that looks more like a ka-bar(sp?) would be nice...maybe make the deagles a bit darker ingame because they are very bright and don't quite match the interface picture...but everything else looks great.

I'd rather keep the old weapons.

what about making an option to choose? like changing interfaces.

The files could be incorporated with the release, simply have a different labels on the folders.
Interface-gfx2, weapons-gfx2, etc.

what about starting a new topic about the gosteks? Somehow I remember this topic here is called "Remake of Maps". Would it make easier for Michal to recognize and separate all the ideas from each other.

I prefer Neo-Soldat to Soldat Evolved.

I could replace ctf_Death with ctf_Death20 but the waypoints are screwed. Could you fix it quickly?
Also ctf_Dropdown2 needs waypoints, can you guys do this?

About the gosteks and weapons gfx: I think it's a great idea. As long as it is nicer not something completely different than I agree. I'll check Neo-Soldat and Soldat Evolved.

nooooo! don't change the default gfxs =/

I think changing to EVO gostek-gfx only would be a nice thing. I'll ask Michal if he agrees.

Before ill give Death20 to someone to rewaypoint it, ill fix the upper borders, cause you can easily explode you through them atm


EDIT: Done.

It looks a tad better now + the upper polygons of the map's edge are deadly. So even in case someone manages to get out of the map, he wouldnt stay there very long. The screenshot is still from the first 2.0 attempt, simply redownload the map for the new version. Ill contact Keron Cyst to rewaypoint it.

I like the default gosteks better then the EVO one, i think it looks to cartoonish (especially with the team colours in CTF).

grand_diablo: Why did you remove the original waypoints? Maybe you can paste the new map on top of the old waypoints somehow?

I actually didnt remove them on purpous, they just werent there anymore after I recompiled with MM+ and then with PWorks. But as far as I remember, they didnt work with Death 2.0 at all, cause they got moved within compiling the first version.

By the way, what about fixing the bouncy polygons for all the default maps for 1.3.1? If you really only have to re-compile the maps via PolyWorks, that'd be pretty easy, or wouldn't it?

Yeah, but it seems that PolyWorks erases waypoints :(.

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiI think changing to EVO gostek-gfx only would be a nice thing. I'll ask Michal if he agrees.

If you really want it, feel free to put it in :>

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiYeah, but it seems that PolyWorks erases waypoints :(.
I'm working on that now ^^;

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiI could replace ctf_Death with ctf_Death20 but the waypoints are screwed. Could you fix it quickly?
Also ctf_Dropdown2 needs waypoints, can you guys do this?

About the gosteks and weapons gfx: I think it's a great idea. As long as it is nicer not something completely different than I agree. I'll check Neo-Soldat and Soldat Evolved.


Keron Cyst is waypointing ctf_dropdown2.

ctf_Dropdown2:
http://home.ripway.com/2004-11/197885/ctf_dropdown2.PMS

quote:Originally posted by Annaquote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiYeah, but it seems that PolyWorks erases waypoints :(.
I'm working on that now ^^;

Shouldn't be hard, just save the waypoints file chunk somewhere. When do you think you will release it?
We could try recompiling the maps then, but it will require testing once it is done.

It's done.No it's not..sorry.

I'm hoping to update the PolyWorks thread in a few weeks, but I'll have earlier updates for testing in #soldat.polyworks (you can get the latest version here: http://individual.utoronto.ca/caek/Soldat-PolyWorks.zip).
Also I'm storing waypoints and connections somewhat differently than in map maker, but I think I resolved the issues I had with that.

edit: progress :>
[IMAGE]
I might replace the graphics though cause I think these aren't visible enough.

forgot to add that there are some DM maps where you can poly bug...so it'd be nice if we could fix those as well as the ctf maps

I recompiled all maps with polyworks. I have to test them still.
Equinox and inf_Moonshine gives an error, I can't open it.

I also made a waypointed version of ctf_Death20, so GD you don't have to worry about it anymore.

Fixed, and partially done waypoint support

quote:Originally posted by AnnaFixed, and partially done waypoint support

Hey, if the waypoints work Polyworks may become the official map tool instead of MapMaker, what do you think?

quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiHey, if the waypoints work Polyworks may become the official map tool instead of MapMaker, what do you think?

I always said this should happen :> yesyesyes.

quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowskiquote:Originally posted by AnnaFixed, and partially done waypoint support

Hey, if the waypoints work Polyworks may become the official map tool instead of MapMaker, what do you think?

Sure, that would be nice :D

I like Map Maker Plus better, but Polyworks has too many nice features :( Curses!

quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowskiquote:Originally posted by AnnaFixed, and partially done waypoint support

Hey, if the waypoints work Polyworks may become the official map tool instead of MapMaker, what do you think?


most of the serious mappers already changed. but maybe ppl who just started mapping will get confused with polyworks, so maybe anna should add better tutorial/faq/manual. but all in all there is no doubt that polyworks is the best mapping tool out there, besides that, its still being developed.

Polyworks should be the default mapmaker. No one would even know the difference, since it has almost exactly the same interface style as soldat. I strongly support this.

//maybe ppl who just started mapping will get confused with polyworks
I think ppl get confused with Map Maker because it sucks ;). Polyworks is more intuitive.
I'm also thinking of changing the official admin program to ARSSE, since I'm using it myself.

You should also include the link to the old map maker, though.

quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowski//maybe ppl who just started mapping will get confused with polyworks
I think ppl get confused with Map Maker because it sucks ;). Polyworks is more intuitive.


maybe i just had that feeling because i had worked with map maker plus before... dunno
quote:Originally posted by Michal Marcinkowski
I'm also thinking of changing the official admin program to ARSSE, since I'm using it myself.

arsse is realy fine. im using this for along time and had no probs.

ARSSE is nice, but I'm still, for some reason, using SoldatAdmin. ._.

I suppose it's hard to get over the old programs.

ARSE is very nice.

As for the mapmakers, perhaps adding a link to each individual mapmaker in teh downloads section would give people a larger variety of choices to make between mapmakers. The same could be done with the other apps too.