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The current weaponmod
Soldat Forums - Misc - Soldat Beta Testing
MisterX
November 27, 2005, 6:52 pm
So we've tested the current weaponmod we got on the sk beta server (it's Bugs Combinationmod with Chakras Barret), and it seemed to be very fine.
The only concerns that were mentioned mostly refered to Spas. They said it should be nerfed a little, either by speed or damage. Bugs said he'd be working on this now.
We also left the M79 untouched, so this one might still need changes. One suggestion is Spyders idea: If an M79user kills an enemy in too close range, he gets killed himself. So generally the damage the player gets from his own M79 should be much higher - sounds good. Think about this, Michal.
Now the most critical nerf we need and most people agreed on is the nerf for the knife. Michal, you really have to do this!

So I guess we can base the following changes on this new balance, hooray!

Bugs Revenge
November 27, 2005, 7:12 pm
I've just tweaked the spas by -3 speed, it doesn't effect much but only the range which is good
you could download the weapon combination from :
http://llsc.us/members/BugsRevenge/uploads/Comb131New.ini
it includes CF's ruger, me taxi and spyder worked on it yesterday..
all the changes are mentioned in the beggining of the file.

and yeah, all in all some more testing and we'r done
we just need you for the knife and M79 MM.. please nerf boosting somehow and make it kill the shoter as well from close ranges.

reckon
November 27, 2005, 7:15 pm
What would be an appropriate way to change the knife?
Damage?

MisterX
November 27, 2005, 7:18 pm
We've come up with the conclusion that knife should either have a longer "switching"-time, meaning it takes longer to switch to the knife, or it should have some kind of chargeup-time, so the longer you hold the throw-button, the further it flies and/or the more damage it does. But please, don't discuss this here now. There are enough other threads for this, I want to keep this more or less clean of discussions.

[Edit]
I got to mention that the Barret in Bugs new weaponmod isnt the Barret we played with. Except for Bugs nobody disagreed about any setting of the new Barret, still Bugs changed it in his new mod, for what reason ever.

Bugs Revenge
November 27, 2005, 7:39 pm
Ok MisterX.. I've just opened a barret topic and we will solve it out.. I ain't about fighting here with anybody

Michal Marcinkowski
November 27, 2005, 9:44 pm
I'm glad you've come up with conclusions. We still got to play, I hope I can find some time during the week.
About the knife: I'll experiment with a delay kind of thing and see how it works.

MisterX
November 27, 2005, 10:09 pm
Well, after having discussed with Outcast and DSlayer, I'm more or less sure a (much) higher time for switching to the knife would do the job.

reckon
November 27, 2005, 10:28 pm
The knife is one of my most used weapons, it nets almost as much kills as my spas does.
I feel a delay would surely destroy the knife for its used in close quarter and fast combat.
A longer switch however will suit it just fine.

Michal Marcinkowski
November 27, 2005, 10:46 pm
I did the knife thing and I'm pretty happy with it. You'll see it in the next version I release.
About the M79: I really don't like the delay on this weapon, it feels very bad, even if it solves some balance issues. I might give it higher self-damage though.

MisterX
November 27, 2005, 11:01 pm
Concerning the M79, I'm not even sure if a delay would be good myself anymore. I guess a more or less drastical increase in self-damage at close range would balance it. If it's high enough, it should also solve the problem many (including me) have with M79 boosting.
But about the barrets delay, I still think it's perfect the way Chakra did it, with a startuptime of 30 (which is being talked about the "last barret topic"). I guess it would only need a chargeup-sound then, like the LAW.

What exactly did you add for the knife?

N1nj@
November 27, 2005, 11:22 pm
Sorry to go a bit offtopic. But MM, can you add a HUGE kickback for barret when in realistic mode?

DragonSlayer
November 27, 2005, 11:48 pm
quote:Originally posted by Michal MarcinkowskiI did the knife thing and I'm pretty happy with it. You'll see it in the next version I release.
About the M79: I really don't like the delay on this weapon, it feels very bad, even if it solves some balance issues. I might give it higher self-damage though.

I'm glad to hear the knife thing works. We were talking about it a lot on IRC today and I think the best solution was the longer switch time.

As for M79, I agree. Delay wouldn't be good with M79. Higher self-damage, as suggested earlier, should balance M79 enough. So you can't get cheap kills and survive.

Outcast
November 28, 2005, 12:10 am
Indeed, delay ruins the m79. You have to aim ahead already, with the delay, it's another aim factor :S Also there's the speed of the soldat :S

Taxista
November 28, 2005, 8:11 am
I already tested the new weapmod too, and with knife and m79 changes it will become very good imo.

Avskum
November 28, 2005, 9:00 am
Whats the problem with boosting? Its one of funnier things to do, and to prevent enemy boosters.
It brings another dimension, and i cant imagine playing b2b without being able to boost. Sounds like it would be very stale.

Atleast the possibility to nade boost should be kept as it is, i cant see why not.

And i agree with no delay on m79.

DragonSlayer
November 28, 2005, 10:32 am
Avskum: I don't think the increased self-damage isn't there to nerf boosting, but so you die easier if you get damaged by your m79 shot (when you are really close to the opponent). Of course it'll affect boosting as well but it will be possible. And I agree, boosting is fine and it's fun, adds a lot to Soldat.

Don't make M79's self-damage too high though. Otherwise boosting would be impossible, especially with nades. Some more self-damage should do the trick.

MisterX
November 28, 2005, 1:23 pm
quote:Originally posted by AvskumWhats the problem with boosting? Its one of funnier things to do, and to prevent enemy boosters.
It brings another dimension, and i cant imagine playing b2b without being able to boost. Sounds like it would be very stale.

Atleast the possibility to nade boost should be kept as it is, i cant see why not.

And i agree with no delay on m79.


The usual (M79)nadeboosting isn't really a problem. As you said, it just adds another factor to the gameplay of bigger maps like B2b, which isn't a bad thing. But especially boosting while one carries the flag is simply unfair and an undeserved advantage, since you can most easily prevent the enemy from being able to get the flag back. It's like knife: Extremely easy, extremely high advantage, both undeserved.

DragonSlayer
November 28, 2005, 2:46 pm
Well, it's not really unfair in my opinion. First of all, all weapons have their advantages and disadvantages. Secondly, boosting yourself with flag also means losing hp and making yourself more vulnerable because you have to reload and you will lose hp. Spray bullets can kill you fast as long as the opponents know where you are. And if they don't know, I don't see how boosting could be unfair. So I don't really think we got a problem there.

papasurf31
November 28, 2005, 4:00 pm
Ahh, beat me to it, DragonSlayer. I'd just also like to add that thanks to MM's addition of bullets losing damage as they go, spraying blindly at escaping flag carriers won't be too big of a problem anymore either.

To make it so that boosting would still be usable, why not have it so that self damage is increased proportional to how much damage you do to the enemy? So if you don't hit an enemy, self damage won't be too drastic. But if you just run into an enemy and pull the trigger, self damage will be alot more, so you'd die if you were too close.

MisterX
November 28, 2005, 5:14 pm
Wrong DragonSlayer. If you're experienced in boosting, you can also boost without losing any hp, at least not noticably. Also you definitely won't be too vulnerable when rushing by the enemy with 50km/h or so :o

About the Barret:
We've just played on the sk beta server again, and I'm still of the opinion the startuptime should be 30, 90 bink is fine. I guess ammo should be 6 or 7. 5 felt a little tiny bit too low, but also I am not very good with Barret, so it was a bigger problem for me than it'll be for an experienced barreter.
There's only one problem: When you hold the firebutton while the fireinterval is "loading", you will fire just when you've loaded the next shot, so this way you can avoid delay. This should really be fixed

Bugs Revenge
November 28, 2005, 6:53 pm
Nah MisterX, I think it's fine now and should be this way
"avoiding" this delay is just skills which players would get by time, but still they wouldn't be unbeatable now and it would be hellhard!

MisterX
November 28, 2005, 7:29 pm
quote:Originally posted by Bugs Revenge"avoiding" this delay is just skills which players would get by time, but still they wouldn't be unbeatable now and it would be hellhard!

I don't get that. Yes, they will get used to it. And when they got, they're advantage will rise and rise again. For sure, they won't be unbeatable. But they also aren't unbeatable in 1.3. Simply the chances between a barreter and another player aren't equal, and I suppose it might become the situation in 1.3.1, even if less bad compared to 1.3.

N1nj@
November 28, 2005, 9:12 pm
I am still strongly against the ammo being anything less than 10.

Taxista
November 28, 2005, 10:37 pm
EDIT: I expressed myself in a wrong way. Here it goes:

I think that a mix between those mods for barret would be the best, with +25 startup, -5 bullets and +10 bink.
I think the 5 bullets will avoid campers too, since they have to reload more often.



DragonSlayer
November 29, 2005, 12:43 am
MisterX: It's true that you can do boost without losing health or not losing much health, which is why a slight increase in self-damage is fine. Too much would ruin it. Especially when you don't have always time to do it correctly and you do it with nades+m79 too.

And we were playing 1.3.1e with Chakra's Barret today and that weapon mod is honestly VERY GOOD. Barret feels really good, I was still able to get lots of kills with it and got a k/d ratio of two in Laos by using only Barret. It is by no means underpowered (the +30 delay version), except that it needs the full 10 bullets. Then it's fine. So here's all the changes which should be done to Chakra's version in my opinion:

1) Like I said, Barret bullets up to 10.
2) M79 self-damage thing. I like papasurf31's suggestion but it could be a bit complicated. No big deal, just as long as we do something minor here.
3) Knife delay (well, we'll see this when 1.3.1 is out as MM said)
4) Longer chainsaw please. What happened to this idea? It could be a bit longer and I wouldn't mind if fuel was actually 80 instead of 50. Also, how about adding chainsaw's damage so if you hit with it, it kills with a higher probability?
5) VERY slight damage decrease for socom in my opinion.

And that should pretty much do it.

Chakra`
November 29, 2005, 1:27 am
Well, while i'm being mentioned here so much... glad you all like that little barret-tweak I did.
Do note however that the tweaks that were done for the public beta were done with the consideration that it was only for 'testing' various aspects of nerfing. eg: the (dramatic) multiple changes to the m79 weren't my idea of a finalised m79, but were just to show what all the various tweaks could offer.

quote:Originally posted by Bugs Revenge
you could download the weapon combination from :
http://llsc.us/members/BugsRevenge/uploads/Comb131New.ini
it includes CF's ruger, me taxi and spyder worked on it yesterday..
all the changes are mentioned in the beggining of the file.


Back in 1.3 beta testing, we actually had the ruger something like this. 0 bink with a rate of fire of 40. We all quite liked it but as I recall Michal thought it was boring. Could kind of see where he was coming from, but it did feel pretty balanced.
Personally I prefer a faster rate of fire but with some serious bink. Nothing quite like having to run as fast as possible from enemy fire just to take an accurate shot... but hey, whatever works and is balanced right now is cool to me. Glad to see you guys are making some progress.

Avskum
November 29, 2005, 7:10 am
quote:Originally posted by MisterXWrong DragonSlayer. If you're experienced in boosting, you can also boost without losing any hp, at least not noticably. Also you definitely won't be too vulnerable when rushing by the enemy with 50km/h or so :o

Sure so if one of m79 strenghts is being able to boost easily then its weakness is in its killing capacity.

What is the suggestion to increase the self damage to? 50% of the hp at a normal boost?

Any more than it is now and you would become a very easy target to any player that has learned to look out for boosters in b2b, and in any other map for that matter.

I like the current m79.

Michal Marcinkowski
November 29, 2005, 7:40 pm
//We all quite liked it but as I recall Michal thought it was boring.
No no. I recall that everybody thought it was boring and I liked it. We can check the logs ;).

N1nj@
November 29, 2005, 9:22 pm
im pretty sure chakra is right on this one ^_^

Bugs Revenge
November 29, 2005, 11:23 pm
Heh yeah, I remember some last second change of you MM ;)
anyway, we could just test it now, I think it's faster than the one we wanted..
we tried Demonic's last time I think, now it's CF's.

DragonSlayer
November 30, 2005, 2:08 am
Well, if MM thinks it's good, and we think it's good... all good!?

:D

MisterX
November 30, 2005, 7:38 pm
After having played a "sweet" match on Voland again (omg I fussing hate the knife so much in 1.3!), I'm again very sure there still has to be another nerf to the M79. Most kills that were done with it were just usual shots. Easy to perform, yet extremely helpful. The self-damage thing won't work there, because those kills are easily done of a few meters of distance. It needn't be a delay, but there has to be something that makes the aiming be harder.

Avskum
November 30, 2005, 8:08 pm
Jesus christ... Dont be so gullible and run into the damn bullets.
It would be totally insane to nerf it even more.

DragonSlayer
November 30, 2005, 9:10 pm
Besides, M79's killing capacity is not very high. It has the worst range of all primaries. Even when you are pretty close, it's dodgeable, depending on the M79 user and how good your movements are. Nerfing M79 more is stupid in my opinion. Unless you can find a good way to nerf it so it won't become useless and things will stay balanced, I see nothing wrong with the way M79 is right now. It just adds more variety to Soldat instead of everyone using autos or semi-autos.

MisterX
November 30, 2005, 9:18 pm
Hm.. I surrender. Perhaps you're just right, sry then. It's not only the aiming of the m79 that makes those usual shots be so easy, but also the way the victim moves. Hm.. :)

N1nj@
November 30, 2005, 9:49 pm
the ak and mp5 could use more bink. For ak, it has a slow ROF..so the bink doesn't affect it as much when compared to steyr. So i think increasing it -1 or -2 makes both the gun have relatively the same size of cursor when the ammo is 10 (I tested it).

And for mp5, it could use -2 or -3.

and for the barret, i think 30 is fine..and if everyone really doesn't like 30...lets go for a compromise and do 27 ^_^

Deleted User
December 1, 2005, 12:50 am
I am loving the knife so much, after playing with MisterX and N1nj@. ;)

MisterX
December 1, 2005, 3:59 pm
Michal, I think the selfdamage should still be increased. At the moment it's nearly impossible to die when you have 100% health and shoot an enemy thats next to you. You can only die if the enemy is standing "in" you. But that's just the same in 1.3. It should really kill you when you're close to an enemy (not directly standing next him, further away) and you shoot him.

Bugs Revenge
December 1, 2005, 4:14 pm
don't change it too much pls..
hmm, m79 shouldn't kill urself everyhit, especialy when taking the LAGS into account.
u see the enemies little farrer and then when u shot him, boom u die.
boosting now is already harder with m79, so if u increase even more selfdmg, don't make it more than +10%.

MisterX
December 3, 2005, 2:03 pm
Now I'm confused. At first Spyder suggested that you die when you kill an enemy who's too close. Now that the M79 was changed, yet still doesn't kill you, you're against it again.

Bugs Revenge
December 3, 2005, 8:46 pm
I'm not against changing it, I'm against adding some more changes while u have the lags issue.
(Adding bink sounds better now)