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My final concerns about the weapons
Soldat Forums - Misc - Soldat Beta Testing
MisterX
December 4, 2005, 6:35 pm
So, those are things which I think should still be changed:
1) Automatic weapons. They still seem to be too effective, especially if a whole team uses them. So I really think they have to be nerfed somehow. Perhaps decreasing their push-back effect would be a way.

2) LAW. I'm very sure the knife is nowhere near as unuseful as you might think when trying the new one. Once you get used to it, it'll still be damn strong, damn fast - only less than before. So I really think the LAW should be buffed somehow. The delay is alright, though. And I'm still for 420 reload. When trying it alone this might seem to be fast. But if you actually try it in a clanwar, you'll notice you won't get to reload it that often, since you always have to be aware of that your enemies will always try to get you.

3) M79. It might not be the most powerful weapon in the game, but still there are many situations in which the M79 is unfair, meaning just too strong for it's strengh. Especially when an M79user rushes by an opponent, just killing him in the meantime, without getting hurt much. Spyder's idea was that the M79 kills himself if he shoots an enemy who's too close, and I'm all for this idea. Yet with the +30% selfdamage this just isn't the result.

4) Chainsaw. If there's any way it can be made more powerful and compete with the other secondaries, so that it's even useful in clanwars without being anoying, it has to be done!

?
December 4, 2005, 7:29 pm
quote:4) Chainsaw. If there's any way it can be made more powerful and compete with the other secondaries, so that it's even useful in clanwars without being anoying, it has to be done!
I got it! Throw the chainsaw like the knife :D

Anyway about the M79 I think the general agreement of 45 bink is fine, its not like an average joe player is gonna be able to fend of multiple autos with the m79 how it is now, the reload time is fine for the weapon I think. Besides if you go one on one witht he m79 unless you know how to handle yourself in the situation, even if you win the battle you still will be low on life against an auto(I am speaking about the average player here, not the vets and pwners and such)

MisterX
December 4, 2005, 7:34 pm
Ah, this reminds me of another point that speaks for an auto-weapon nerf, which I forgot: When for example 2 deaglers rush by each other, mostly one will be dead, and the other one mostly unhurt in the end. And it's even far easier to "dodge" the bullets of the enemy by moving in an unexpected way. Though if you are facing an auto-user, you will never end up being at full health. Mostly, even if you kill the auto-user, you will still be hurt pretty much, since he can (mostly easily) shoot you while you're shooting him, but he will hit more.
I wonder if that was any understandable.

Taxista
December 4, 2005, 7:40 pm
1) I agree with you. But not too much decreasing imo.

2) Try to play in defence with it (420 reload) and you will see how many times you will kill with law. As i said before i think 460 is good or even 480.

3) I think with the 45 bink its good now, as "cross" lol said, only if you are very good with it you will have advantage (just like other weaps), not much tho.

4) Chainsaw is there only for fun and not to be competitive imo.

MisterX
December 4, 2005, 10:04 pm
2: Also a barreter has a great advantage when defending/camping, yet we set the reload to a limit which makes it be balanced in firefights. And just compare it to the knife. There are many more situations in which the knife is more useful than the LAW. Also you can kill much quicker. And mostly the aiming isn't any harder than the one of the LAW. And by the way, we still have the delay. So if you see one camping with LAW, you can still try to evade, which should work pretty well by using prone and jet the right way.
3: Not sure if bink is the best solution. This way M79 will only be much more vulnerable to automatic weapons, but nothing will change when fighting against a deagler or a rugerer. I'm still for the increased selfdamage, so you really kill yourself when shooting an enemy who's too close
4: Well, it's only a fun-weapon because of it's weakness. But it needn't be a weapon that can't be used as effective as other secondaries in serious matches, if we just found a solution. But it seems we won't find any.

Psyl3ntShad0w
December 4, 2005, 10:08 pm
3 - ruger already has benefit of range on the m79...so just try and keep your distance...deages...dodge the first shot and kill them before they have the time to fire another shot off?

4 - chainsaw is a weapon i use in CWs when ive built up a sizeable lead and i want to see if i can still cap with only using chainsaw...lol.

Bugs Revenge
December 5, 2005, 12:38 am
my opinions about each point :

1.Autos --> They'r just fine now.. shouldn't be changed at all.

2.Knife --> I'm affraid it's overnerfed.. how can you think it's too effective?!
I ain't sure it was overpowered before anyways, do u want it to be unuseable weapon..?

3.m79 got 20 more bink and the selfbink +30%. I think together they'r just doing their work.

4.Chainsaw isn't used to be a "good" weapon but just for fun, besides, it could be effective as well :D

look, nothing personal but we'r trying to reach a point which every weapon has its own adventages and disadvantages.. so when someone is realy skilled with some weapon he would be able to "pwn".. none of the weapon is easy now in my oppinion. you'r just playing too much with "skilled" ppl so u think everyweapon is perfect and trying to nerf it. but that's not the point, u mustn't make weapons completly unusable just for them not to "pwn" you.

MisterX
December 5, 2005, 1:17 am
If your last sentence is about the automatic weapons, then I can tell you it's only based on my experiences. I've experienced any kind of fights, and to me it just seems as if automatic weapons, especially when used by 2-3 enemies at once, can be obviously more effective than semi-autos, giving the auto-using team a clear advantage that's not given by skill.

And about the chainsaw: As I said, I know it's mostly used for fun. But I'm not sure if it shouldn't be a usual secondary, just like the others.

Bugs Revenge
December 5, 2005, 2:27 am
how could we make it one? the only thing I can think of is the longer range..
and I wasn't talking about automatics specificly but generaly about weapons as for knife, barret, m79, autos etc.
Look, when u'r playing with Chakra while he's ruger, and remedy while he's barreting, and I dunno who with other guns and they would just pwn that doesn't mean the gun is overpowered, it just means they'r skilled with it, no reason to ruing it. we'r just nerfing guns that unbeatable, there's a way to block any kind of weapon atm.. that's what it should be.. let's do a bit more testing on the last weapon mod and see how it goes.. the Law's reload is 460 as I remember there.
m79 got more bink, should be fine.

maximum, we would just change the weapon mod in the next version, as we've said already.. we can never get it perfect, we can't decide if it's good just with us, only the public could show us.

MisterX
December 5, 2005, 1:07 pm
quote:Originally posted by Bugs RevengeLook, when u'r playing with Chakra while he's ruger, and remedy while he's barreting, and I dunno who with other guns and they would just pwn that doesn't mean the gun is overpowered, it just means they'r skilled with it, no reason to ruing it.
That's not what I'm talking about and that's definitely not what I base my opinion on.

Chakra`
December 5, 2005, 1:54 pm
You're taking it too far luv (talking to MisterX).
The knife is fine now, if not overnerfed.
As for the rest, its all somewhat unreliable, I suggest you take a minute to stop and think, maybe play against new opponents? try to check your opinions thoroughly.

MisterX
December 5, 2005, 3:50 pm
I've based this on my experience I got of playing many, many clanwars with 1.3, and I'm still very sure of it all. I guess we'll see how totally overnerfed and totally useless the knife will be in 1.3.1... it won't.

reckon
December 5, 2005, 4:45 pm
Well we will, delays arent exactly the sexiest ideas when it comes to "improving" a game that they (the masses who arent represented in this forum) already know quite well and love so much.

DragonSlayer
December 5, 2005, 10:52 pm
I only agree about chainsaw with you. It should be stronger, otherwise I'm glad with the weapons now.

And knife is not nearly as good as you make it out to be. I think socom is a bigger problem.

MisterX
December 7, 2005, 7:47 pm
I can just say, in my opinion automatics are definitely overpowered, at least/especially when used by 2-3+ people together. I'm very sure that's a clear fact, even if you disagree there. Generally they have the easiest aiming, an immense kickback-effect, are very strong, have a great spraying-advantage, can perfectly be used on any range, partially have a very fast reload. Other weapons (except Barret perhaps, when used carefully) just can't compete then, so you can easily dominate a clanwar if you use them right. :)

Michal Marcinkowski
December 7, 2005, 9:53 pm
We can easily say that autos are overpowered in groups. But what do you say if there is a group of M79-ers or Rugers or Barrets?

MisterX
December 7, 2005, 10:18 pm
What I say? Well, I'll tell you ;) A whole group of 3 M79 users in a clanwar would be rather senseless, they could easily be countered with weapons for longer ranges. As for the Ruger I think it's also problematic, but can also be countered with automatic weapons, as they are more or less the strongest weapons against Ruger. In 1.3 though I think Ruger is overpowered, especially when used in groups - but that's just why we balanced it here. And for the Barret: 3 Barrets have always been "lame" and are hated, yet powerful. So I definitely won't say they aren't problematic.
I know you more or less wanted to say that any weapon could be "overpowered" when used in groups. But I'm not talking about 1 guy fighting 2 enemies, if that's what you think. But mostly any group using only 1 weapon type can be countered by another, but autos are different. They are just overpowered. And I even say they are overpowered in general. It's just not as noticable when it's only used by 1 guy than when it's used by 3.

Psyl3ntShad0w
December 8, 2005, 1:46 am
either way, i can't wait til the release of this version so the newbie snipers start missing and go whats wrong with my poor barret while i mow them down with autos...and i cant wait til new players pick up autos instead of the barret. yay *runs off in glee*

Bugs Revenge
December 8, 2005, 12:02 pm
heh... Mr.X, you might be right.. but we would see that in the next version and if u'r actualy right, we would fix it in the next one ;D

MisterX
December 8, 2005, 12:47 pm
I know, I know. Delaying the release of the new version several more weeks wouldn't be the best thing to do, because I doubt you could agree with me within only 2 weeks of discussing ;)
Btw, I don't think the delay to the Barret will help much. It should be in, that's for sure. But people will get used to it so fast, so that in the end it might not be too helpful anymore. Better than nothing, but not as good as you think :)
At least we should definitely go on testing, even when 1.3.1 is out. Perhaps we should wait some weeks so everyone can earn his own experiences while playing the new version, but then we should go on.

Bugs Revenge
December 8, 2005, 4:38 pm
Sure.. We would have to wait a little bit and only then we would see which weapons are still overpowered or underpowered.. then we will fix that ;)

grand_diablo
December 8, 2005, 4:52 pm
quote:Originally posted by MisterXWhat I say? Well, I'll tell you ;) A whole group of 3 M79 users in a clanwar would be rather senseless, they could easily be countered with weapons for longer ranges.

Wrong, that issue is mapspecific. On B2b (for example) it would work like that, unless m79-boosterds would annoy you, but thats a different matter. Talking about maps like Nuubia, Kampf, Laos (except the upper middle part) and soon Lanubya, a group of m79 would be effective. But imo its okay, theyd be still beatable.


quote:As for the Ruger I think it's also problematic, but can also be countered with automatic weapons, as they are more or less the strongest weapons against Ruger. In 1.3 though I think Ruger is overpowered, especially when used in groups - but that's just why we balanced it here. And for the Barret: 3 Barrets have always been "lame" and are hated, yet powerful. So I definitely won't say they aren't problematic.

Barret is ok the way it is now, imo. Ruger could be a slight tad weaker, but everything else than that it aint too effective on closrange maps like those mentioned above.


quote:I know you more or less wanted to say that any weapon could be "overpowered" when used in groups. But I'm not talking about 1 guy fighting 2 enemies, if that's what you think. But mostly any group using only 1 weapon type can be countered by another, but autos are different. They are just overpowered. And I even say they are overpowered in general. It's just not as noticable when it's only used by 1 guy than when it's used by 3.


Sensing how bad it was in 121, Id like to mention that its a matter of WHICH auto you use. Again, its map specific, but since there 4 different usable autos (excluding the minigun as its not commonly used), you find a group of autos for every kind of map. Like mp5 for close combat, Steyr for mid-distance battle and ak+minimi for mid and longrange fights.

Imo mp5, ak and minimi need to be weakened another tiny bit, steyr seems fine (talking about my experiences with the combomod from 2-3 weeks ago).