Well, as Chakra suggested we'd better open individual vote about each subject of the weapon ballance, I guess the Secondaries should be in one catagory so there you go..
I personaly think that the secondaries are absolutly ballanced but the chainsaw as we all knows,
one suggestion was to make it so it could kill even then rolling around or so which I think is a realy good idea. but this pool is more about the others ( Succom, Law and the Knife ).
What do u think of them?

The succom is just fine since it needs to kill the oneshotkill weapon users while they'r reloading.
The knife is fine since you could instant kill with it and pick it up over again.
The Law is fine since it's SO easy to aim and it needs some delay so it's quite ballanced now.

I'm still waiting for you telling me that the knife is far too hard to use, as you did before 1.3.1 was released and wanted to do when it was.
Anyway, I'm totally fine with the balance of the 3 weapons. None of them is too strong, only the usage differs, as knife is still the most-used one. But the balance is fine, they are all very useful in different equally-important situations, there's no problem, life is great.
About the chainsaw: I'm of the opinion that it needs a major buff. Soldat isn't only a funny freegame for coffee breakes, so there shouldn't be weapons which can only be used for this kind of playing. Even if there have been people telling me the chainsaw is fine, also when used in serious clanwars, never anyone could proof that it is, yet.

I don't know, there are some people I know of that can be quite deadly with a chainsaw. I do think that it isn't up to the caliber of the other secondaries, but what you can possibly do about it.

The problem with it isn't its reload time or anything like that, I think it's just the overall idea. A melee weapon doesn't really work too well in a game that's about ranged combat. It would be pointless to be able to throw it because it would just be larger knife.

I have but one idea, that is when you press the throw button with the chainsaw you'll throw it with the throttle locked and it will go spinning like crazy with a really unpredictable arc. Thus, it could kill more than 1 person.


But anyways, didn't Michal originally say that the chainsaw was meant to be the silly weapon in Soldat?

I think the secondaries are fine, but it would be cool to see the chainsaw kill while rolling.

Want to fix chainsaw? Let's whine to Michal about modifing it so it can be used in all animations. Now you can play the spinning ball of doom.

imo the socom needs a slight nerf, its almost as powerful as a primary. Knife is just 1 hit 1 chance with some difficultie, while the soccom isnt difficult to handle at all. Also the LAW delay could be a very slight tad shorter, but thats not a must, im fine with the current setup aswell.

And yeah, I agree, chainsaw could need some improvement.

About the chainsaw, I saw some people which actualy played with it and owned.. It could be realy useful in laggy games since of just running with it and hoping to kill someone ^_^.
the knife, I still find it difficult to use it and some people still playing with it so I guess it's fine, I just don't wanna get used to it :x

So I guess the general oppinion is to leave the secondaries, fine :) NEXT Poll.

Saw is still suprisingly highly underestimated. I've had many a multi and even x2's - none even being spawnkills - just with a saw. Sometimes even solo against a whole base. Granted, required a bit of luck as always.


The trick is, you actually have to aim your saw much like you would your gun. You think just brushing past them does it, but the centre of your saw has to be spot on facing them. 'Thats' why some people report the saw not hitting or hitting fully ....it's because it really isn't. I suppose you can think of the saw as being a typical 1pixel wide bullet being held in your hand.

Yeah. Basically, saw requires accuracy. You can duck saws, walk right past saws when they're busy facing up or down, etc .... but saw isn't cruise control for kill-on-touch.

1) Nerf the socom.
2) Make it so you can hold F as long as you want when throwing knife and you won't throw it before you release the button. Possibly even decrease the time you have to hold the button a bit.
3) Add saw damage so it KILLS when it should kill. And somehow improve the saw collision... so often it doesn't even damage.
4) Maybe make the law with a bit less delay.

"2) Make it so you can hold F as long as you want when throwing knife and you won't throw it before you release the button. Possibly even decrease the time you have to hold the button a bit." --> I like this idea.. I realy do.

I found that if you enter an animation, you can cancel the throwing by letting the throw button loose whilst you are in the animation.

the law, socom and knife are fine imo, let's not mess up the good balance just because we can.

the saw's always been more of an occasionaö fun weapon for skilled players, and it should stay that way. i like the idea of being able to use it during animations, i wouldn't bring it up-to-par with the "real" secondaries but would allow for more fun stunts :).

 Quote:Originally posted by Bugs Revenge"2) Make it so you can hold F as long as you want when throwing knife and you won't throw it before you release the button. Possibly even decrease the time you have to hold the button a bit." --> I like this idea.. I realy do.


Same here.

1) I think socom just needs a little less power.
2) Knife is perfect in this version imo. DS´s idea would only bring again the power that knife had last version. It would be able again to kill an auto user easily, since players would always have their knife ready to shot with max power when starting an atack.
3) Yeah, saw must kill when it should kill.
4) Law just needs a little less delay, to be a usable weapon in small maps.

 Quote:Originally posted by DragonSlayer2) Make it so you can hold F as long as you want when throwing knife and you won't throw it before you release the button. Possibly even decrease the time you have to hold the button a bit.
I'm totally against this. Knife isn't too hard to use, also not too easy. It's completely fine and up with the other secondaries. As I've seen it's probably still the most-used secondary, only Socom is used much more since 1.3.1 is released. It would be wrong to change the knife now.

 Quote:I'm totally against this. Knife isn't too hard to use, also not too easy. It's completely fine and up with the other secondaries. As I've seen it's probably still the most-used secondary, only Socom is used much more since 1.3.1 is released. It would be wrong to change the knife now.
I agree that it's not too hard to use, but getting good throws is too rare.

And if knife isn't changed, then socom will definitely need a little nerf.

From 1.3.1 I haven't seen any "skilled" knife kills. that's why I'm for DS's suggestion, so yeah, you could kill on first time with knife (like u could with the law) but for the second time u couldn't coz u have to pick it up and have this delay again.

Oh and remember why we changed knife in the first place? It was because we thought that switching to knife and throwing it instantly was too fast. Even if we do what I suggested, that problem won't exist because you can't switch to it and throw at full power right away. It doesn't make knife one bit overpowered, it just makes it better.

It makes it better, right. But it's already good enough, why should be any better, easier? You need skill now, because you got to estimate when you have to start charging the knife in order to get a good kill. This is a great improvement to what it has been like before. The knife is just fine now, there is just not any reason for why it should be buffed.

 Quote:Originally posted by MisterXIt makes it better, right. But it's already good enough, why should be any better, easier? You need skill now, because you got to estimate when you have to start charging the knife in order to get a good kill. This is a great improvement to what it has been like before. The knife is just fine now, there is just not any reason for why it should be buffed.

Yes there is. The reason is called fun.

And when I said better, I didn't mean that knife would be better IN TERMS OF POWER (although it would, but only by a bit). I meant better as in cooler and more fun to use. And adding the feature to hold down throw button as long as you want to wouldn't make knife inbalanced unless you think that knife rushing is overpowered.

 Quote:Originally posted by DragonSlayer
Yes there is. The reason is called fun.

And when I said better, I didn't mean that knife would be better IN TERMS OF POWER (although it would, but only by a bit). I meant better as in cooler and more fun to use. And adding the feature to hold down throw button as long as you want to wouldn't make knife inbalanced unless you think that knife rushing is overpowered.

Probably not overpowered, but it definitely used to be a problem. Some time many people were even using the knife as their primary weapon. Take your knife, rush towards the enemy, easily kill one of them because of easy knife aiming (It's still as easy, but chargeup makes it be harder), then switch to your primary and go on killing.
This needn't be supported again.

And well, I see nobody agrees to me anyway, but concerning the fun: Why should it be less funny using the knife the way it's now? Using it is more challenging, but for me this also increases the fun, especially if you "beat" the challenge. For sure you could change many things in order to make it be funnier. But we aren't only balancing the game in order to make it be funnier, but also to make it be fair. Both, fun and fairness are important, but none should be forgotten here.

How about a faster knife? So once you throw it, it'll fly farther. Should bring back 'em skill-kills your missing. The problem with making it able to hold the throw is that Michal has to do that, we can't set that in the weapons.ini. Besides, it would be annoying to see people rush on you with a charged knife, and then throw it right in your face.

 Quote:Originally posted by DeMonIcHow about a faster knife? So once you throw it, it'll fly farther. Should bring back 'em skill-kills your missing. The problem with making it able to hold the throw is that Michal has to do that, we can't set that in the weapons.ini. Besides, it would be annoying to see people rush on you with a charged knife, and then throw it right in your face.

Faster knife could do the trick too, as long as the range will be the same.

 Quote:Probably not overpowered, but it definitely used to be a problem. Some time many people were even using the knife as their primary weapon. Take your knife, rush towards the enemy, easily kill one of them because of easy knife aiming (It's still as easy, but chargeup makes it be harder), then switch to your primary and go on killing.
This needn't be supported again.
Knife aiming is easy? Well, I suppose it is easy for experienced players but by your standards, aiming ALL the weapons is easy because knife is the hardest weapon (when counting both primaries and secondaries) to aim in Soldat. And if they rush, let them rush. That's much less effective than using a real primary.

 Quote:And well, I see nobody agrees to me anyway, but concerning the fun: Why should it be less funny using the knife the way it's now? Using it is more challenging, but for me this also increases the fun, especially if you "beat" the challenge. For sure you could change many things in order to make it be funnier. But we aren't only balancing the game in order to make it be funnier, but also to make it be fair. Both, fun and fairness are important, but none should be forgotten here.
Like I said, doing what I suggested wouldn't ruin the balance one bit. And I agree that challenge makes Soldat more fun. However, getting cool knife kills would still be challenging and not so rare. I like challenge and all but ever since 1.3.1, knifing has become much worse and it's mostly used for short range throws. Of course not only for short range but that's the way knife has turned out to be right now.

Anyway, don't mind my knife rants too much. I don't really think it's needed, it's just a suggestion to make Soldat better in my eyes. MM can do it or not do it, either way is fine.

"Besides, it would be annoying to see people rush on you with a charged knife, and then throw it right in your face."
And is it fun when Law's users run and looks for their enemies?
I'm totally agree with DS...
We can ask MM to do it, shouldn't be that hard.

 Quote:Originally posted by DragonSlayer
Knife aiming is easy? Well, I suppose it is easy for experienced players but by your standards, aiming ALL the weapons is easy because knife is the hardest weapon (when counting both primaries and secondaries) to aim in Soldat.
It depends on the situation it's used in, for sure. On longer ranges it's definitely not easy, but if you use it like a primary weapon you usually get very close to your opponent. And in this case, it is very easy.

 Quote:Like I said, doing what I suggested wouldn't ruin the balance one bit.
No, it wouldn't ruin it, but it would change it for no reason. There is really not a reason why knife should be changed.

 Quote:Originally posted by Bugs Revenge
I'm totally agree with DS...
We can ask MM to do it, shouldn't be that hard.

You might've noticed you're not the only guy out here in these forums. And by the way, you're always so concerned about the votes. Why don't you want to look at the vote we got here? See the result? This time 90% of the voters aren't for a knife buff, but you ignore it. Funny, isn't it? (No, I don't mean to say that I care about the votes myself or that these 90% are an argument for my position)

Come on guys. Knife is just fine now. That would only make it overused again.

Well, from the beggining I was with the idea of "no changes should be made to the secondaries", I voted it myself BUT, after thinking of it again and reading DS's stuff I've decided we've overnerf the Knife.
Look, MAYBE it's only me, maybe, but I hardly see one player who's using a Knife atm. well maybe it was overused but now it's unuseable imo at least.
The Law and the Succom are a way too easy to aim comparing to the knife. With the charge now you have to know completly when it would throw it for which distance and it's a way too much charge anyway( about 2 seconds to throw the knife from the moment u see your enemy).

I'm not trying to do stuff that are against the votes, never did but I try to explain you - the others with DS that the knife was overnerfed and that atm none actualy using it.
So yeah, we don't want overuse but it wouldn't be, there would still be the charge and none could instant kill you when swiching. as for using the knife as a primary weapon it would be just the same as running with LAW. or running with barret and clicking the mouse key each time for 1 sec (so it wouldn't shot) and when u actualy aiming click it for 1 more second.

Just think about it over again, that's all I'm trying to say :x
It's just that you guys are getting mad seeing skilled ppl uses one weapon so you nerf it, sometimes it's just overnerf, as it was for the knife, and the Barret as well IMO --> It's become a realy hard gun to use which only the most skilled players uses it.

Do you want all the Newbis to use the autoguns again? and what next? overnerf the autoguns? I don't see ur point.
We got to remember the game not only ment to be played by "Pros" but by newbis, and avarage ppl as well, and I don't see any way the newbis \ the avarage ppl would use barret or knife now.

Are we playing the same version? Socom and knife are the most used secondaries by far, there are less-known clans beating big names with spraying all around the place and a lot of less-skilled players are dominating with M79, but other than that the balance is near perfect.

That is why we are talking about necessary, few digit changes. Think about that before making another page long post about your views of the weapon balance.

Bugs how often do you play in 1.3.1 ? I still see many knifers. And you dont need full charge every time to kill one guy, some times its only needed half charge or something.

Off course newbies are not able to use knife without training, because now it requires skill, they just have to get used to it, and they will able to kill with it. With 1.3 knife every ppl would use it easily.

About barret, i think that it´s still very easy for players that play for long time. I never used barret and i´m able to kill easily with it. For the newbies its the same that knife, they will have to get skills with it. We dont want all noobs to pick barret like the old times.

Barret is easy for those who have played long time. But so are the other weapons. Barret is fine now.

As for knife, I see a lot more socom users but if we nerf socom a bit, I think knife will be fine. Like I said, I don't really care if knife gets the buff I suggested, it'd be just a cool add. Either way, it'll be fine.

Ill throw in my two cents at this moment:
1. Decrease the soccom's power just a tad.
2. The knife is fine for me at the moment, howeverI do like the faster speed.
3. As ive said many times and as have others, tmplement the idea that the saw can be used during all animations.
4. The law's delay should be knicked a couple ticks.

Hmm, I actualy do play Soldat from time to time, lots of gathers..
anyway, about the "newbis" clans beating the bigger clans, well..
look, It's the way games are ment to be, there are always the skilled guys and the new ones, but those newbis with the time getting some skills and actualy can beat the oldtimers.
It was always this way and would always be. how do u explain clans like BA and SaD lost like a year ago or two by "newbis"? they were the most experianced clans afterall.. It's just that the other "newbis" got some skills with the time.. ^_^

anyway, about the knife, well I said, maybe it was only me.. But I still see it and too hard weapon to use.

Decrease in socom power is fine by me...I don't think it'll make that big of a difference. It's not like people are using the socom as a primary weapon...where as they were with law and knife...

No buffing any secondaries except for chainsaw please. No reason to turn secondaries into primaries again.